Amazon Synod final document: "Terrible and seemingly impious things"

[LilyM]

LilyM:

Well as has been said already, there are women who in the early Church were named ‘deaconesses’. I’m sure they weren’t ordained, same as the deaconesses employed.in Eastrern Orthodox churches are not. So, although male deacons are indeed ordained, it appears that one can be female.and unordained and yet a deacon(ess).

You said this on the same line as saying that you haven’t seen a male deacon in a church in a long time.

Yes - because they presumably fulfil some of.the same.functions, which service seems to.be badly needed. I don’t mean to imply that they are equivalent, of course.

The idea of a ‘deaconess’ at.least implies a breadth and depth .of seevice that simply being a reader or EMHC does not.

 

[Fauken]

Yes - because they presumably fulfil some of.the same.functions, which service seems to.be badly needed. The idea of a ‘deaconess’ at.least implies a breadth and depth .of seevice that simply being a reader or EMHC does not.

They don’t. They assisted with preparing women to be baptized since the women would be baptized in the nude. That was their role.

 

[TheBomb.Com]

Um, women were never ordained. Deaconess was never an ordained ministry. It’s just a step forward on the path toward looking like the Church of England.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

Yes - because they presumably fulfil some of.the same.functions, which service seems to.be badly needed. The idea of a ‘deaconess’ at.least implies a breadth and depth .of seevice that simply being a reader or EMHC does not.

They don’t. They assisted with preparing women to be baptized since the women would be baptized in the nude. That was their role.

And is that all they did? Including their roles outsode.the liturgy itself? Look at the Wikipedia page on deconesses - it appears not.

 

[LilyM]

Um, women were never ordained. Deaconess was never an ordained ministry. It’s just a step forward on the path toward looking like the Church of England.

I never said they were, and have been very careful to repeatedly make.that clear.

 

[TheBomb.Com]

Then why have a diaconate for women?

 

[Fauken]

And is that all they did? Including their roles outsode.the liturgy itself? Look at the Wikipedia page on deconesses - it appears not.

https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2...plans-for-female-deacons-but-study-continues/

“The pope went on to explain that in the past female deacons assisted with the liturgy, for example, with the full-immersion baptisms of women or to serve as an aid to the bishop in determining the authenticity of domestic abuse with matrimonial disputes.”

 

[jack63]

For starters I cannot recall the last time I saw a male deacon in Church

I see Deacons in church most times I go to mass. They are always extremely well prepared for their homilies. Deacons add things priests do not, and priests add things Deacons do not.

Anyway, why can’t woman be “ordained” to and order other than holy orders? I sincerely believe it is not a good idea for woman and men to be part of the same clerical order. They should have different orders and heritage.

However, I don’t understand why anything JPII said would preclude female ordination in a different order than men.

Why can’t we build and grow on the idea of female Deacons described in the New Testament. I really think this is what pope Francis is saying here…

Pope Francis tells women religious church cannot alter revelation on women’s diaconate

“In regard to the diaconate we must see what was there at the beginning of revelation, if there was something, let it grow and it arrives, but if there was not, if the Lord didn’t want a sacramental ministry for women, it can’t go forward.”

www.americamagazine.org

In regard to the diaconate we must see what was there at the beginning of revelation, if there was something, let it grow and it arrives, but if there was not, if the Lord didn’t want a sacramental ministry for women, it can’t go forward. For this reason we go to history and to dogma.”

 

[Fauken]

a sacramental ministry for women

“A sacramental ministry for women”?

One of the oldest vocations in the entire Church is Consecrated Virginity, and the idea of it being made as a Sacrament was heavily discussed a long, long time ago. It was not made one. If it wasn’t, I don’t see why a role which was never Sacramental to begin with would.

 

[jack63]

Well that’s interesting…

So woman Deacons helped with baptisms. They played an important role in a sacrament historically and biblically. Why can’t we build and grow from that?

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

And is that all they did? Including their roles outsode.the liturgy itself? Look at the Wikipedia page on deconesses - it appears not.

https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2...plans-for-female-deacons-but-study-continues/

“The pope went on to explain that in the past female deacons assisted with the liturgy, for example, with the full-immersion baptisms of women or to serve as an aid to the bishop in determining the authenticity of domestic abuse with matrimonial disputes.”

"For Example "… in other words this was not the sum total of functions they performed.

Suffice it to say that it is not my decision,.snd the issue is under consideration, so I may as well refrain from further needless comment.

 

[Adamek]

Can’t worship the creature: earth, jungle, pacha mama. World Over - 2019-10-31 - Full Episode with Raymond Arroyo - YouTube

 

[HeDa]

The group that is doing a study on this has found out that the “ordination of women deaconesses in the early Church” was more similar to a present day mother abbess ceremony that to a ordination of a male deacon. I think I read about this on the Vatican news website.

The present day “deaconesses” in the Catholic Church are our sisters. Both those in the apostolic orders teaching in schools, caring for the sick and doing parish work and those nuns in monasteries praying for God’s people.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

And yet, Krautler still says publicly that he supports the ordination of female priests and this goes unanswered. That is a BIG problem.

 

[thistle]

And yet, Krautler still says publicly that he supports the ordination of female priests and this goes unanswered. That is a BIG problem.

Makes no difference what an individual says. It is impossible for an infallible teaching to be changed so all this speculation about women being ordained deacons is a waste of time and breath.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

The issue is why they allow him to say such things publicly and not make him recant publicly? Is it acceptable to deny doctrine publicly? This man is one of the main public faces of the Synod.

Idolatry is also infallibly prohibited. And yet…

 

[pnewton]

You don’t need to see such a statement.
It is IMPOSSIBLE as the Church INFALLIBLY TEACHES that only men can be ordained.

… as priests. That is the only part that has been defined infallibly. This is the first and only exercise of infallibility on the subject

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...p-ii_apl_19940522_ordinatio-sacerdotalis.html

Pope Francis would not have looked into it if it was a theological impossibility. He the pope, not some heretic, as much as those here attacking the Catholic Church might have us believe.

 

[thistle]

Interesting Catholic Answers article:

What Should I Know About Pope Francis and ‘Women Deacons’?

If you heard a sonic boom in the last twenty-four hours or so, it was likely from the shock waves created by high-speed news reports on Pope Francis agreeing to...

www.catholic.com

 

[Adamek]

The issue is why they allow him to say such things publicly and not make him recant publicly? Is it acceptable to deny doctrine publicly? This man is one of the main public faces of the Synod.

Idolatry is also infallibly prohibited. And yet…

He is not the only bishop who is making public statements that seem to contradict the magisterium. His statements are not challenged by Vatican because they reflect views that are not controversial.

A lot of ideas are being floated by various players, without challenge. They are testing the waters to see how strong the opposition will be.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

No, the Vatican is very tolerant of anything heterodox, but not those terrible rigid folks like the Little Sisters of Marie, Mother of the Redeemer or the Franciscans of the Immaculate.