Amazon Synod final document: "Terrible and seemingly impious things"

[Margaret_Ann]

The diaconate is the first degree of Holy Orders. One cannot separate the diaconate from the priesthood and episcopate.

 

[CRV]

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles* (2002)

Priesthood and Diaconate The Recipient of the Sacrament of Holy Orders from the Perspective of Creation Theology and Christology By: Cardinal Gerhard Müller

 

[pnewton]

I am only saying this has not been defined. St. John Paul spoke only of the priesthood. He defined the impossibility of women priests, not Holy Orders. I linked the document. And there are a great many separations. For example, a deacon cannot say Mass. That is the biggie. Catholic theologians today are divided on this topic precisely because the impossibility of female deacons has not been defined the way female priests have been. Because there is disagreement, one can find Catholics on both sides to quote, but what no one will find, is where the Church, that is, the Pope or council, has defined this as doctrine.

@CRV linked a great article. Even though it was dealing with the permanent diaconate, it had a lot of information on the possibility of the female deacon, and even mentioned the need to explore it later as doctrine developed. Now we have Pope Francis following through with this request, though that yielded no change. The impossibility of female deacons was not defined, and the possibility of female deacons is still not allowed.

Of interest also is the argument of whether deacons must be part of Holy Orders. Basically, it sees this as proper, not a theological necessity.

 

[Adamek]

he impossibility of female deacons has not been defined the way female priests have been.

this statement contradicts what the previous poster has written and what I have heard from others who are in the business. Thus, what is expressed here is an opinion, or your this case, wishful thinking.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Deacons are “part of Holy Orders” (sic). The diaconate is the first major degree of Holy Orders.

 

[Taras_Bulba]

Driving on the right side of the road in America could be changed, but don’t doubt that the consequences would be car wrecks.

 

[twf]

This was a great article. It reminds us that the Church ordains (active tense because they still exist in the Eastern Churches, FSSP, etc) subdeacons. We speak of ordaining subdeacons, yet they do not receive the sacrament of holy orders. The ordination of a subdeacon is a sacramental, not a Sacrament, but like the profession of a religious, the consecration of a virgin, or the blessing of an abbot/abbess. I believe the ancient order of deaconesses were likewise “ordained”, but it was a distinct sacramental akin to the subdiaconate.

 

[Fauken]

We speak of ordaining subdeacons, yet they do not receive the sacrament of holy orders.

What? They do receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. There are seven Orders, four are minor, three are major: Porter, Lector, Exorcist, Acolyte, Subdeacon, Deacon, and Priest.

http://www.institute-christ-king.org/775-ordination-week-2019

 

[ez3714]

everybody needs to stop thinking about what is happening in Rome and focus on what happened in and around Jerusalem about 2000 years ago.

“Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!”

 

[twf]

I don’t think that’s theologically correct…the sacrament of Holy Orders instituted by Christ has three degrees: diaconate, presbyterate, and episcopate. The Minor Orders were instituted by the Church and are thus sacramentals, not the sacrament itself.

 

[Fauken]

I don’t think that’s theologically correct…the sacrament of Holy Orders instituted by Christ has three degrees: diaconate, presbyterate, and episcopate. The Minor Orders were instituted by the Church and are thus sacramentals, not the sacrament itself.

From the Baltimore Catechism:

“Q. 979. Besides bishops and priests, who are the other ministers of the Church?
A. Besides bishops and priests, the other ministers of the Church are deacons and sub-deacons, who, while preparing for the priesthood, have received some of the Holy Orders, but who have not been ordained to the full powers of the priest.”

“Q. 980. Why is this Sacrament called Holy Orders?
A. This Sacrament is called Holy Orders because it is conferred by seven different grades or steps following one another in fixed order by which the sacred powers of the priesthood are gradually given to the one admitted to that holy state.”

“Q. 981. What are the grades by which one ascends to the priesthood?
A. The grades by which one ascends to the priesthood are (1) Tonsure, or the clipping of the hair by the bishop, by which the candidate for priesthood dedicates himself to the service of the altar; (2) The four minor orders, Porter, Reader, Exorcist, and Acolyte, by which he is permitted to perform certain duties that laymen should not perform; (3) Sub-deaconship, by which he takes upon himself the obligation of leading a life of perpetual chastity and of saying daily the divine office; (4) Deaconship, by which he receives power to preach, baptize, and give Holy Communion. The next step, priesthood, gives him power to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and forgive sins. These orders are not all given at once, but at times fixed by the laws of the Church.”

So we’re both wrong. They’re not Sacraments nor Sacramentals, but degrees of one Sacrament.

 

[pnewton]

Thus, what is expressed here is an opinion, or your this case, wishful thinking.

Let me reword this in a more objective way. No one here has shown anywhere the Church has said the impossibility of female deacons has been defined. Also, you are wrong, completely, and absolutely, and saying that in my case it is wishful thinking. I have no where, ever, said what I prefer. So if instead of jumping to conclusions you could constructively show where the Church, not “previous poster” has made such a claim, that would be great.

Deacons are “part of Holy Orders” (sic). The diaconate is the first major degree of Holy Orders.

Absolutely. There is no argument about that. Let me refer back to this, as I found it quite informative and balanced. If needed, I do not mind cutting out snippets for those who want an opinion about what the Church says without reading.

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles* (2002)

Priesthood and Diaconate The Recipient of the Sacrament of Holy Orders from the Perspective of Creation Theology and Christology By: Cardinal Gerhard Müller

 

[Vico]

Maybe you can reference a time when the church used women deacons?

Read the document from the International Theological Commission, From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles (2002)

The present historical overview shows that a ministry of deaconesses did indeed exist, and that this developed unevenly in the different parts of the Church. It seems clear that this ministry was not perceived as simply the feminine equivalent of the masculine diaconate. At the very least it was an ecclesial function, exercised by women, sometimes mentioned together with that of sub-deacon in the lists of Church ministries.78 Was this ministry conferred by an imposition of hands comparable to that by which the episcopate, the priesthood and the masculine diaconate were conferred? The text of the Constitutiones Apostolorum would seem to suggest this, but it is practically the only witness to this, and its proper interpretation is the subject of much debate.79 Should the imposition of hands on deaconesses be considered the same as that on deacons, or is it rather on the same level as the imposition of hands on sub-deacons and lectors? It is difficult to tackle the question on the basis of historical data alone.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c.../rc_con_cfaith_pro_05072004_diaconate_en.html

Note: acolytes are the same, in the Latin Church, as sub-deacons.

 

[Vico]

twf:

I don’t think that’s theologically correct…the sacrament of Holy Orders instituted by Christ has three degrees: diaconate, presbyterate, and episcopate. The Minor Orders were instituted by the Church and are thus sacramentals, not the sacrament itself.

…
So we’re both wrong. They’re not Sacraments nor Sacramentals, but degrees of one Sacrament.

St. Pope Paul VI approved the change in 1972, for the Latin Church, from minor orders to ministries, retaining only two ministries: reader and acolyte, and an acolyte may be referred to also as subdeacon. The reader and acolyte may also be instituted without leading to Holy Orders.

 

[twf]

That may have been the common teaching at the time, but I think theologians would challenge that… I could be completely wrong here… but it’s my understanding that the Church has discerned that the sacrament itself as instituted by Christ and the apostles has only three degrees. The minor orders were instituted by the Church. The Church can’t change the fundamental nature of a sacrament… yet the minor orders were suppressed by the Pope (for the most part). Maybe someone else can chip in?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

So woman Deacons helped with baptisms. They played an important role in a sacrament historically and biblically. Why can’t we build and grow from that?

That’s really just starting from scratch.