Ambivalent about the TLM

[Kerry77]

I have been feeling drawn to the TLM as of late. So, thankfully, there are a few options relatively nearby. I went to two different Masses, at two different parishes. They were both Low Masses, Sunday.

I had this weird feeling when I left, I almost felt depressed, or maybe disoriented is a better word. I can’t explain it exactly, but I didn’t feel like I was in the right place.

Now let me back up a bit. Usually, we attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass, in English, at our local parish. The Mass itself is well-done, very reverent. Things that drive me batty…well, that’s a long list. The music sounds like Broadway music, they have this piano player than manages to take even the most simple hymns and jazz them up. The singer is a woman trained in opera I believe, and she warbles and makes the songs unsingable and almost takes over the whole Mass, like it is her personal concert hall. The chatter before the Mass drives me nuts. The chatter after the Mass drives me nuts. The people who just pass by the Tabernacle, which is in a lovely side chapel, on their way to the exit, without any gesture, genuflecting. The clothes, oy, don’t even go there, but let’s just say I’m glad it’s winter. Then there is the Sign of Peace and the holding hands during the Our Father (or using the orans position). There is no Confiteor, which I know is ok according to the Missal, but I think the lack of it really goes over the people’s heads. The women climbing up on the altar to be the communion ministers. And don’t even get me started on the Christmas Eve Catholics, who often show up drunk (not kidding).

Again, I believe the priests are good and holy men, so I don’t want this to be a critique of them, and I believe both forms of the Mass are valid and holy.

Anyway, back to the Latin Mass…So I thought it might be a good option for us, and would certainly take care of many of these distractions. And it did. The people were reverent and silent, dressed lovely and properly. No Sign of Peace, no holding hands. I have only attended the Low Mass so far, so I don’t know about the music and responses part.

But it just didn’t feel right. And I know, Mass is not about me, believe me, I went with every good intention. I had a Missal, I tried to follow along. I think I had just had a hard time with the Latin and the orientation of the priest. I felt like my head was full of cotton balls when I left, I think from feeling disoriented for an hour. I also felt, well, sad. I thought it was going to be the way for our family, and now I feel like it is not.

Any advice, suggestions. I come in peace and goodwill, I believe both forms of the Mass are valid, so please don’t attack and remember that I am also new to this forum. Thank you.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I have been feeling drawn to the TLM as of late. So, thankfully, there are a few options relatively nearby. I went to two different Masses, at two different parishes. They were both Low Masses, Sunday.

I had this weird feeling when I left, I almost felt depressed, or maybe disoriented is a better word. I can’t explain it exactly, but I didn’t feel like I was in the right place.

Now let me back up a bit. Usually, we attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass, in English, at our local parish. The Mass itself is well-done, very reverent. Things that drive me batty…well, that’s a long list. The music sounds like Broadway music, they have this piano player than manages to take even the most simple hymns and jazz them up. The singer is a woman trained in opera I believe, and she warbles and makes the songs unsingable and almost takes over the whole Mass, like it is her personal concert hall. The chatter before the Mass drives me nuts. The chatter after the Mass drives me nuts. The people who just pass by the Tabernacle, which is in a lovely side chapel, on their way to the exit, without any gesture, genuflecting. The clothes, oy, don’t even go there, but let’s just say I’m glad it’s winter. Then there is the Sign of Peace and the holding hands during the Our Father (or using the orans position). There is no Confiteor, which I know is ok according to the Missal, but I think the lack of it really goes over the people’s heads. The women climbing up on the altar to be the communion ministers. And don’t even get me started on the Christmas Eve Catholics, who often show up drunk (not kidding).

Again, I believe the priests are good and holy men, so I don’t want this to be a critique of them, and I believe both forms of the Mass are valid and holy.

Anyway, back to the Latin Mass…So I thought it might be a good option for us, and would certainly take care of many of these distractions. And it did. The people were reverent and silent, dressed lovely and properly. No Sign of Peace, no holding hands. I have only attended the Low Mass so far, so I don’t know about the music and responses part.

But it just didn’t feel right. And I know, Mass is not about me, believe me, I went with every good intention. I had a Missal, I tried to follow along. I think I had just had a hard time with the Latin and the orientation of the priest. I felt like my head was full of cotton balls when I left, I think from feeling disoriented for an hour. I also felt, well, sad. I thought it was going to be the way for our family, and now I feel like it is not.

Any advice, suggestions. I come in peace and goodwill, I believe both forms of the Mass are valid, so please don’t attack and remember that I am also new to this forum. Thank you.

Go the Eucharist, which is the Sacrifice of Christ where you eat His Body and drink His Blood.
As for the other details, they do not matter.
First things first.

 

[Spencerian]

Hi, Kerry, and welcome to the forums!

I appreciate your need not to be distracted during the attendance of either form of the Mass. Yet, people are human. It’s important that the first defense against distraction is found inside yourself.

Here’s some tips I would ask you to consider.

1. 
   *]"Forgive them, for they know not what they do."
   
   No Mass is perfect (Not even a papal Mass). Many people raise their hands as the priest does because they see others doing it and think that’s the proper thing to do (generally, it’s not, but that’s up to the bishop to enforce). The question you need to ask yourself is, “Does this *really *take away from the purpose of the Mass?”
   
   I certainly hope it doesn’t. While I would like to see such behavior corrected, I choose to ignore it and, for my part, correct those who insist on holding my hand outside of the correct time, at the Sign of Peace, at that moment. “Holding hands now is not required, but thank you for offering.” There is a time and place for correction. The priest has this obligation when he sees fit. But doing so during the Mass is tricky and not something even a priest can do without adequate preparation (or even approval from his bishop) so people understand the “why” of the problem after being told the “do not.”
   
   *]You know what is happening in any Mass by now. One is ultimately obliged just to attend.
   
   Unless you have a firm grasp of Latin, the Extraordinary Form will not be entirely intelligible, true. As you know, however, the laity does very little in the participation of the Mass in the EF. Does that take away from the reverence? Of course not. Some people with legitimate jobs with odd hours throughout the day (or weekend), such as police or medical staff, try to attend Mass to meet their obligation. They may fall asleep there for they are so tired. Yet they did find time to go–even though they can barely participate. In the end, the Church obligates us to recognize our obligation to attend Mass, but not to be super-active participants.
   
   *]The Mass is only one way to be closer to God.
   
   Don’t forget that you can also participate in Eucharistic Adoration at a parish, or participate in many other activities that not only proclaim the glory of God, but also help people who need your help, through the resources of the church you attend.
   
   And nothing stops you from praying at any time.
   
   *]Grousing about a legitimate abuse is less effective than discussing it with the pastor first.
   
   See an abuse that’s really too hard or inappropriate to ignore? Note the time, date and place of the problem and schedule a time to talk with the priest about it. (Don’t try to talk up the problem after the Mass–priests are overloaded in work at that time as it is.)
   
   Remember also that a priest is a man trained in theology and the rubrics of the Mass. He may know something you don’t, so approach with humility and ask about the problem that affords the respect a priest is due. “Father, why do many people hold hands doing the Our Father at our parish?” may be a better start than, “The parish shouldn’t be holding hands! You need to stop this!”
   
   In any case, perhaps a talk with your priest on what you hope to gain from the Mass and what you may find lacking can help you gain insight for yourself. God bless.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Give it another go. But I recommend you prepare yourself a little differently. First, leave the missal at home. Look through it through the week and get a general idea of what’s happening when (and there should be Masses recorded on the internet to get a good idea of what’s happening when). The Missal will just confuse the heck out of you. You’ll be too busy trying to follow along in the missal which brings me to the second point…

Pray. Silent, contemplative, meditative, prayer. What are the four ends of worship? To give glory to God, to thank Him for all His benefits, to plead for pardon and to ask for all the things necessary for the Church and for ourselves. Think about this before Mass starts. Think about the Sacrifice that Christ made for us and is being offered again on the very altar in front of you. The same priest offering the same victim. Don’t be too concerned about what the priest is doing. Trust him. Priests are here to lead us. He knows what he is doing.

It just takes some getting used to. Don’t wholesale convert over to regular EF attendance. Try get to it once or twice a month. Get familiarised with it. You will come to love it in time.

No Mass is perfect

Christ’s Sacrifice is not perfect?

As you know, however, the laity does very little in the participation of the Mass in the EF.

I’m sorry but this is insulting. Did you just compare interior participation with falling asleep at Mass?

Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not happening (laity’s participation).

 

[malphono]

I have been feeling drawn to the TLM as of late. So, thankfully, there are a few options relatively nearby. I went to two different Masses, at two different parishes. They were both Low Masses, Sunday.

I had this weird feeling when I left, I almost felt depressed, or maybe disoriented is a better word. I can’t explain it exactly, but I didn’t feel like I was in the right place. …

Anyway, back to the Latin Mass…So I thought it might be a good option for us, and would certainly take care of many of these distractions. And it did. The people were reverent and silent, dressed lovely and properly. No Sign of Peace, no holding hands. I have only attended the Low Mass so far, so I don’t know about the music and responses part.

But it just didn’t feel right. And I know, Mass is not about me, believe me, I went with every good intention. I had a Missal, I tried to follow along. I think I had just had a hard time with the Latin and the orientation of the priest. I felt like my head was full of cotton balls when I left, I think from feeling disoriented for an hour. I also felt, well, sad. I thought it was going to be the way for our family, and now I feel like it is not.

Any advice, suggestions. I come in peace and goodwill, I believe both forms of the Mass are valid, so please don’t attack and remember that I am also new to this forum. Thank you.

If this was your first experience at the Usus Antiquior, it’s probably just a case of unfamiliarity. For someone accustomed to the Novus Ordo, it often takes a few tries to get used to it, Low Mass in particular. That said, if you have the opportunity to assist at High Mass (whether Solemn or Sung), which is my preference, by all means, go.

 

[puzzleannie]

my suggestion for those encountering the Latin Mass for the first time is to forget trying to follow in a missal (unless you are old like me and it is like riding a bike to go back to what you learned in 5th grade) and simply be there. Watch and listen, like a young child being taken to Mass for the first time.

The “full active participation” we were introduced to then was active listening and contemplation, not the need to respond (until the dialogue Mass was introduced in the 60s, still in Latin) or take any active role. That listening and silence and receptivity is what–in my opinion–is most lacking in the OF we have grown used to, and what the “minor abuses and irritations” militate against, which is why we instinctively react so badly to them.

 

[Spencerian]

Christ’s Sacrifice is not perfect?

Please don’t think I’m wrongly confusing the humans attending and celebrating the Mass from the *effect *of the Mass. Even if done with many liturgical errors, a Mass held under the proper form and matter and intention is still valid. However, not all Masses are celebrated with a *precision *that the GIRM calls for.

I’m sorry but this is insulting. Did you just compare interior participation with falling asleep at Mass?

No. I’m noting that, while the Church requires the laity to attend Mass, it does not require us to do the impossible. As noted, people in public charitable services, such as doctors or law enforcement, may find it hard or impossible to attend the Mass regularly. Even when they do, they may find it hard to participate in as much as the laity is tasked to do. Struggling to attend, even for a part of the Mass, after, say, a 72-hour continuous work shift, albeit being unable to stay fully awake through no fault of your own is a laudable act of faith and perseverance, in my opinion. Hopefully such people can find a time to meet their obligation where they can maintain full attention.

Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not happening (laity’s participation).

I don’t understand what you are saying here.

 

[ProVobis]

Please don’t think I’m wrongly confusing the humans attending and celebrating the Mass from the *effect *of the Mass. Even if done with many liturgical errors, a Mass held under the proper form and matter and intention is still valid. However, not all Masses are celebrated with a *precision *that the GIRM calls for.

Just so you know the IGMR/GIRM does not apply in the EF. Verbal and non-verbal rubrics are specified in the 1962 Missal itself, in the documents of Trent, or by old customs.

 

[Lancer]

Go the Eucharist, which is the Sacrifice of Christ where you eat His Body and drink His Blood.
As for the other details, they do not matter.
First things first.

I understand your point about the singular importance of the gift of receiving the Body and Blood of the Risen Christ…but I think your “wording”…inadvertently diminishes the importance of the Mass in its entirety…and the critical importance and role of the laity in the entire Mass…to the point of confusion–at best–and misinformation–at worse.

For your consideration…from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM)
Pax Christi

II. The Functions of the People of God

1. In the celebration of Mass the faithful form a holy people, a people of God’s own possession and a royal Priesthood, so that they may give thanks to God and offer the unblemished sacrificial Victim not only by means of the hands of the Priest but also together with him and so that they may learn to offer their very selves.[82] They should, moreover, take care to show this by their deep religious sense and their charity toward brothers and sisters who participate with them in the same celebration.

They are consequently to avoid any appearance of singularity or division, keeping in mind that they have only one Father in heaven and that hence are all brothers or sisters one to the other.

1. Moreover, they are to form one body, whether in hearing the Word of God, or in taking part in the prayers and in the singing, or above all by the common offering of the Sacrifice and by participating together at the Lord’s table. This unity is beautifully apparent from the gestures and bodily postures observed together by the faithful.

1. The faithful, moreover, should not refuse to serve the People of God in gladness whenever they are asked to perform some particular service or function in the celebration.

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/roman-missal/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-3.cfm

 

[Diotima]

I felt exactly the same way after first attending the TLM–depressed, empty, craving the warmth and comfort of the OF. And I attended a High Mass, so I can’t even ascribe my feelings to the lack of music or difficulty in understanding the priest.

I’ve kept going though, and over time I’ve come to appreciate and even prefer this form.

There are many possible reasons for the negative feelings I experienced at first, but I think a major one is: the EF is humbling. It omits a lot of the extraneous human attachments that a lot of us experience at the OF (and I’ve got to admit, even when I’m deploring the bad music or the liturgical abuses at my own parish’s OF, I still secretly enjoy being able to say hi to my friends during the Sign of Peace, and listening to familiar hymns like “Amazing Grace”). At the EF, in contrast, I don’t experience these things. I’m really forced to confront my own tendency to distraction, my own sinfulness, my own ugly, empty soul. Of course that’s not always going to feel pleasant! But for me, it’s really necessary, and if I carry this line of thought to its logical conclusion, I’m also forced to confront the magnitude of Christ’s sacrifice–that he died, and that he continues to give himself, to a creature such as me. And that’s the essence of the Mass! So I prefer the EF because, for me personally, it’s a better reminder of what’s really going on there . . . even if it’s not always fun.

Of course there are practical tips to improve your participation in the EF. Attend a Solemn High Mass if at all possible–it’s easier to understand. And, even though many people will counsel you not to read along, I personally began appreciating it more when I did learn to follow along with the Ecclesia Dei red book. Practice contemplation, which is what you should be doing during the silence. Read Pope Benedict’s Spirit of the Liturgy. But I think letting go of an attachment to good feelings is the most important piece of advice for praying the Mass . . .

 

[JRKH]

I would simply suggest that you continue to attend the EF mass for awhile until you become more familiar with it. You will probably note some 'regulars" there who seem very active and perhaps you could ask them about schedules, high masses and the like.

It may be that the EF groups are still getting organized, developing singers chanters etc…Others might be able to fill you in.

Learn all you can about the mass itself. Use a missal or missalette (if provided) and read the English as the priest reads the Latin. In short order you will have the timing down so that your reading speed pretty much matches the celebrants. This will give you a great sense of participation.

The thing to remember is that there are well done and poorly done masses in both forms. And finding the mass that is most comfortable for you may take some time. Just be patient and enjoy the learning experience.

Peace
James

 

[Kerry77]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

Just to clarify, there aren’t any abuses at my local parish, so thankfully I don’t have to go down that road.

The priests themselves are very reverent and holy. It’s the people. I try to tell myself that Jesus wants them all there, even in their sweatpants. And I can even get past the shaking hands and holding hands. But there are some things I have a hard time getting past, like not honoring the Tabernacle and the chatter before and after Mass. That makes me think that they don’t really understand where they are. The music, oh, that’s hard too.

I am going to keep trying. I will try a High Mass too, that is a good suggestion.

I wish there was a middle way. I guess for me, that would be an Ordinary Form Mass in English, with less distracting music, no holding hands, no chatting, genuflecting and respect for the Blessed Sacrament, proper attire, in a church building that didn’t look like an airport terminal…Sigh.

 

[Kerry77]

I felt exactly the same way after first attending the TLM–depressed, empty, craving the warmth and comfort of the OF. And I attended a High Mass, so I can’t even ascribe my feelings to the lack of music or difficulty in understanding the priest.

I’ve kept going though, and over time I’ve come to appreciate and even prefer this form.

There are many possible reasons for the negative feelings I experienced at first, but I think a major one is: the EF is humbling. It omits a lot of the extraneous human attachments that a lot of us experience at the OF (and I’ve got to admit, even when I’m deploring the bad music or the liturgical abuses at my own parish’s OF, I still secretly enjoy being able to say hi to my friends during the Sign of Peace, and listening to familiar hymns like “Amazing Grace”). At the EF, in contrast, I don’t experience these things. I’m really forced to confront my own tendency to distraction, my own sinfulness, my own ugly, empty soul. Of course that’s not always going to feel pleasant! But for me, it’s really necessary, and if I carry this line of thought to its logical conclusion, I’m also forced to confront the magnitude of Christ’s sacrifice–that he died, and that he continues to give himself, to a creature such as me. And that’s the essence of the Mass! So I prefer the EF because, for me personally, it’s a better reminder of what’s really going on there . . . even if it’s not always fun.

Of course there are practical tips to improve your participation in the EF. Attend a Solemn High Mass if at all possible–it’s easier to understand. And, even though many people will counsel you not to read along, I personally began appreciating it more when I did learn to follow along with the Ecclesia Dei red book. Practice contemplation, which is what you should be doing during the silence. Read Pope Benedict’s Spirit of the Liturgy. But I think letting go of an attachment to good feelings is the most important piece of advice for praying the Mass . . .

Thank you for your comment, I am reassured to hear that I am not the only one who feels/felt this way. Your part about the EF being humbling really hit home. I think that is the word I was searching for when I was trying to describe my feelings.

 

[MissRose73]

It took a few times of going to Extra Ordinary Form for me to understand more. Keep in mind also, I have to travel a great distance for it but it is worth it when I am able to go to it. The first few times, I sat in the back and followed the congregation’s lead. I do sit closer to the front now but still with a few people in front of me to follow their lead.

I admit it has changed my faith life for the better among other things. I find myself craving things done a certain way, modesty in dress & behavior, reverence & respect, more quiet before and after Mass in the worship space, etc - things many of us would love to see returning to the Ordinary Form. I attend Ordinary Form out of necessity but try to go to parishes that do their best to stick to the rubrics including kneeling during certain parts of the liturgy of the Eucharist. I am hoping with the new Roman Missal at the Ordinary Form, things will get better.

 

[Kerry77]

I was also hoping that with the new Roman Missal, things would get better too, but I fear that the things our parish seems to be doing things exactly the same way, or rather the people seem to, regardless of the new Missal.

I was also under the (false) impression that the new Missal was going to bring the music more into line, make it more uniform, but that was not to be.

 

[Colt]

“…Things that drive me batty…well, that’s a long list…”

I think a good place for you to focus is on those things that are absolutely none of your business. I’m not trying to be mean, but constructive. There are steps YOU can take to make things better for you. The fact certain things drive you “batty” is a shortcoming in you that you need to deal with. You may not like the garb other people wear, whether or not they genuflect at certain times, use of the orans, hand-holding (I doubt your hands are begin forcibly grabbed), etc. but they are also none of your concern. Learn (as difficult as it might be) to mind your own business. Get that under control and then maybe you can learn to constructively deal with the things that do impact you because you have no way to ignore them. Once you have your own house in order so to speak you might find your own voice strengthened. You might also face the decision of moving on to another parish.

Attending the closest EF Mass to my home is an extremely depressing prospect but it’s not at all because of the form of the Mass. It’s because of some of the people who attend it.

 

[Jon_in_the_Nati]

I can understand a lot of the sentiments expressed on this thread. Right now I split my time between the EF and OF. My choice every Sunday is between an EF mass that just leaves me cold (no music, no opportunity to sing, no real ‘warmth’ of any kind*) and an OF mass that infuriates me every time I leave (Haugen&Haas music from Gather, orans positions at the PN, no Confiteor, horrible vestments, and people who act like its the first time they’ve ever been to mass even though I’ve seen them every Sunday and holy day for the past 3 years).

I’m not sure why it is too much to ask that an OF mass be celebrated reverently, with classic Catholic/Anglican hymns, and a church building that doesn’t look like we’re doing the best we can to make it not look so much like a church. Maybe even a puff of incense once in a while. I live in one of the most heavily Catholic areas of the country; why can’t I find these things?

*Please don’t tell me it is because I “just don’t understand” the EF. I teach Latin at a local high school, I own the Baronius 1962 missal, and I take very seriously my study of church history. In my mind I understand why the EF is superior in almost every way to the OF, but I cannot account for the way it makes me feel. And I know feelings are not everything, but they are something.

 

[Colt]

I can understand a lot of the sentiments expressed on this thread. Right now I split my time between the EF and OF. My choice every Sunday is between an EF mass that just leaves me cold (no music, no opportunity to sing, no real ‘warmth’ of any kind*) and an OF mass that infuriates me every time I leave (Haugen&Haas music from Gather, orans positions at the PN, no Confiteor, horrible vestments, and people who act like its the first time they’ve ever been to mass even though I’ve seen them every Sunday and holy day for the past 3 years).

I’m not sure why it is too much to ask that an OF mass be celebrated reverently, with classic Catholic/Anglican hymns, and a church building that doesn’t look like we’re doing the best we can to make it not look so much like a church. Maybe even a puff of incense once in a while. I live in one of the most heavily Catholic areas of the country; why can’t I find these things?

*Please don’t tell me it is because I “just don’t understand” the EF. I teach Latin at a local high school, I own the Baronius 1962 missal, and I take very seriously my study of church history. In my mind I understand why the EF is superior in almost every way to the OF, but I cannot account for the way it makes me feel. And I know feelings are not everything, but they are something.

Why do you care about the orans positions at the Lord’s Prayer, the licit form of the penetential rite chosen, what you personally feel are horrible vestments, and people who act like its the first time they’ve ever been to mass even though I’ve seen them every Sunday and holy day for the past 3 years? Just learn to ignore all that noise. It’s not easy but it’s worth it.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I understand your point about the singular importance of the gift of receiving the Body and Blood of the Risen Christ…but I think your “wording”…inadvertently diminishes the importance of the Mass in its entirety…and the critical importance and role of the laity in the entire Mass…to the point of confusion–at best–and misinformation–at worse.

For your consideration…from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM)
Pax Christi

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/roman-missal/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-3.cfm

Can you do something about it?
Go up the altar, give orders, put everything as you like…as the texts you mentioned. If you have authority, DO something!
You cannot do nothing about it…
… then forget it. It is none of your business.
Complain? It is good for the liver but very bad for the concentration on the real important thing!!!

 

[Kerry77]

I think a good place for you to focus is on those things that are absolutely none of your business. I’m not trying to be mean, but constructive. There are steps YOU can take to make things better for you. The fact certain things drive you “batty” is a shortcoming in you that you need to deal with. You may not like the garb other people wear, whether or not they genuflect at certain times, use of the orans, hand-holding (I doubt your hands are begin forcibly grabbed), etc. but they are also none of your concern. Learn (as difficult as it might be) to mind your own business. Get that under control and then maybe you can learn to constructively deal with the things that do impact you because you have no way to ignore them. Once you have your own house in order so to speak you might find your own voice strengthened. You might also face the decision of moving on to another parish.

Attending the closest EF Mass to my home is an extremely depressing prospect but it’s not at all because of the form of the Mass. It’s because of some of the people who attend it.

I am not proud of the fact that these things I mentioned bother me. At all.

However, I am a bit confused with your comment, which seems to chastise me for letting these issues “drive me batty” yet you add at the end that attending the closest EF Mass is “an extremely depressing prospect” because of “some of the people who attend it.”