Ambivalent about the TLM

[Kerry77]

I can understand a lot of the sentiments expressed on this thread. Right now I split my time between the EF and OF. My choice every Sunday is between an EF mass that just leaves me cold (no music, no opportunity to sing, no real ‘warmth’ of any kind*) and an OF mass that infuriates me every time I leave (Haugen&Haas music from Gather, orans positions at the PN, no Confiteor, horrible vestments, and people who act like its the first time they’ve ever been to mass even though I’ve seen them every Sunday and holy day for the past 3 years).

**I’m not sure why it is too much to ask that an OF mass be celebrated reverently, with classic Catholic/Anglican hymns, and a church building that doesn’t look like we’re doing the best we can to make it not look so much like a church. Maybe even a puff of incense once in a while. I live in one of the most heavily Catholic areas of the country; why can’t I find these things? **

*Please don’t tell me it is because I “just don’t understand” the EF. I teach Latin at a local high school, I own the Baronius 1962 missal, and I take very seriously my study of church history. In my mind I understand why the EF is superior in almost every way to the OF, but I cannot account for the way it makes me feel. And I know feelings are not everything, but they are something.

Re the part that I bolded. I live in the most heavily Catholic areas of the country as well. This baffles me too.

 

[Kerry77]

Why do you care about the orans positions at the Lord’s Prayer, the licit form of the penetential rite chosen, what you personally feel are horrible vestments, and people who act like its the first time they’ve ever been to mass even though I’ve seen them every Sunday and holy day for the past 3 years? Just learn to ignore all that noise. It’s not easy but it’s worth it.

I am not Jon, but you might as well have put these questions to me so thought I would add my 2 cents…

I wrote this somewhere on here, but here is my issue…There are the things that as you said are licit, such as the form of the Penitential Rite, the Sign of Peace, the EMHCs, etc. I should not let these things bother me, and I try not to. In fact they are minor, and as I wrote, our priests are good and holy men.

However there are some things I find myself not being able to ignore, namely the incessant chatter before and after Mass and not bowing or genuflecting towards the Blessed Sacrament as they pass the Tabernacle. The clothing is another thing that is hard for me to ignore. I know, I know some people work on Sunday etc. I live in an affluent parish and sorry, but coming in with your favorite team’s football jersey on? Not acceptable. Or sweatpants? No. These actions (or lack of) make me think that the people do not believe in the Real Presence. These are things I cannot just block out. It physically pains me to witness them.

 

[Kerry77]

I meant to add this somewhere else…

I don’t think this is just about the forms of the Mass. I grew up in the 80s, with the Ordinary Form, and yes, I even went to the folk masses with the guitars.

Something else changed since even the 80s. Some things have gotten much worse, even as we’ve banished the guitars. Back then, even at a folk mass, everyone genuflected, people did not talk in the sanctuary like it was a coffee shop, people did not wear sweatpants, we didn’t hold hands during the Our Father, we said the Confiteor, etc.

 

[pilots13]

The music sounds like Broadway music, they have this piano player than manages to take even the most simple hymns and jazz them up. The singer is a woman trained in opera I believe, and she warbles and makes the songs unsingable and almost takes over the whole Mass, like it is her personal concert hall.

Music can absolutely make or break a Mass for me. What kind of music do they play? Traditional hymns? Haugen/Hass/Joncas style? Modern pop songs (and yes, I know a church in town that will do that…) For me personally I love the Haugen/Hass/Joncas style of music. But it is very easy for parishes to go WAY over the top on the music and make the Mass more about the band than the Eucharist. That said, I’ve also seen churches with traditional choirs do the same thing.

The chatter before the Mass drives me nuts. The chatter after the Mass drives me nuts.

Chatter in the church is a bit annoying (for me more before Mass than after). This is one of the reasons a lot of newer built churches create large gathering spaces outside the main church body. It doesn’t always work, but it’s going the right direction.

The people who just pass by the Tabernacle, which is in a lovely side chapel, on their way to the exit, without any gesture, genuflecting.

That’s probably more lack of knowledge about what you should do than anything else. I went a good portion of my life genuflecting before sitting down at Mass and having no idea I was suppose to be doing it at the Tabernacle (which is in our church body vs a side chapel). Maybe try noting to people you should be genuflecting, or bringing it up with your priest and maybe he’ll mention something at Mass or run something in the bulletin.

The clothes, oy, don’t even go there, but let’s just say I’m glad it’s winter.

Yea, clothing has got far too casual at churches. I’m not about to say you should be wearing a suit and tie every week, but at least throw on a nice pair of jeans and a button down shirt people. Oh, showering is good too…

Then there is the Sign of Peace and the holding hands during the Our Father (or using the orans position).

Don’t like touching other people? The Our Father bugged me at first when that became trendy, but i’ve moved on. The sign of peace, That’s just part of the Mass and has been for 40 years. What’s wrong with spreading the Peace of Christ with those around you?

There is no Confiteor, which I know is ok according to the Missal, but I think the lack of it really goes over the people’s heads.

Most churches I’ve gone to say the Conifiteor vs other options (except Lent when most places seem to sing the Kyrie)

The women climbing up on the altar to be the communion ministers.

And… wow… Someone in another thread laughed off my Catholic Church sexist comment. Above is Example A.

And don’t even get me started on the Christmas Eve Catholics, who often show up drunk (not kidding).

Yea, they generally bug me too. Sometimes tough to tell if people are Christmas Catholics or in town visiting relatives. (well till this year when Christmas Catholics will have no idea what to say during Mass)

But it just didn’t feel right. And I know, Mass is not about me, believe me, I went with every good intention. I had a Missal, I tried to follow along. I think I had just had a hard time with the Latin and the orientation of the priest. I felt like my head was full of cotton balls when I left, I think from feeling disoriented for an hour. I also felt, well, sad. I thought it was going to be the way for our family, and now I feel like it is not.

So did most Catholics in the 50’s, hence Vatican II changing the Mass. Which is why I’m baffled there are so many people who want to go back to this way of Mass.

 

[pilots13]

I was also going to note that there is for sure a church somewhere between old school Latin and broadway production out there (assuming you live in a decent sized city vs a small town). Just church hop a bit till you find one that fits your preferred style of worship.

 

[ProVobis]

So did most Catholics in the 50’s, hence Vatican II changing the Mass. Which is why I’m baffled there are so many people who want to go back to this way of Mass.

Perhaps one should be more baffled as to why so many have left the Church since the 50’s. The reforms started before Vatican II and many wanted to go back to the pre-55 Holy Week. Seems to me the 62 Missal is compromise enough but I wouldn’t object to the (more singable) Latin OF being the new norm. That’s just me, though.

 

[Kerry77]

And… wow… Someone in another thread laughed off my Catholic Church sexist comment. Above is Example A.

Yes, eight women running up on the altar, some dressed immodestly I might add, drives me nuts. (We have a circular church)

If that makes me a sexist, so be it.

 

[pilots13]

Perhaps one should be more baffled as to why so many have left the Church since the 50’s. The reforms started before Vatican II and many wanted to go back to the pre-55 Holy Week. Seems to me the 62 Missal is compromise enough but I wouldn’t object to the (more singable) Latin OF being the new norm. That’s just me, though.

There are obviously larger issues with the Church than just the Mass. I not going to pretend like I have the answers, but I do believe if you go back you’re going to lose even more than you are now. We’re 2 generations removed from that form of worship. Very few people my age (early 30’s) and younger are going to be very accepting of that form of Mass any more, cause we have no connection to it. We’re accustomed to folk music, and holding hands, and speaking English. Not sitting silently and watching a ceremony in Latin.

 

[pilots13]

Yes, eight women running up on the altar, some dressed immodestly I might add, drives me nuts. (We have a circular church)

If that makes me a sexist, so be it.

Do they actually run? Doubt it. I’d guess they actually walk.
Do they climb on the Altar? Doubt it. I’d guess they stand to the side of the Altar
Do they do the exact same things the male Eucharistic ministers do. At every church I’ve ever attended they do. So to single them out is sexist.

I can give you your immodest dressing comment, but I highly doubt all 8 of them are dressed as if they were going clubbing. If Eucharistic Ministers are not dressing appropriately that’s something the priest should mention to them (we had a guy who would always wear his jacket when a minister. The priest talked to him, and no he takes it off. Problem solved, oh, and that would be a man dressing inappropriately. See, men do it too).

To single out women as dressing wrong, or approaching the Altar wrong is sexist because men do it just as wrong as women do.

 

[Kerry77]

Do they actually run? Doubt it. I’d guess they actually walk.
Do they climb on the Altar? Doubt it. I’d guess they stand to the side of the Altar
Do they do the exact same things the male Eucharistic ministers do. At every church I’ve ever attended they do. So to single them out is sexist.

I can give you your immodest dressing comment, but I highly doubt all 8 of them are dressed as if they were going clubbing. If Eucharistic Ministers are not dressing appropriately that’s something the priest should mention to them (we had a guy who would always wear his jacket when a minister. The priest talked to him, and no he takes it off. Problem solved, oh, and that would be a man dressing inappropriately. See, men do it too).

To single out women as dressing wrong, or approaching the Altar wrong is sexist because men do it just as wrong as women do.

First up, there is the question of whether or not they are really needed. But let’s assume they are for the sake of this argument. I would prefer they were men, just as I would prefer that the lector was a man, and just as I would prefer that the altar servers were boys and not girls. If that technically makes me a sexist, guilty as charged.

 

[Kerry77]

There are obviously larger issues with the Church than just the Mass. I not going to pretend like I have the answers, but I do believe if you go back you’re going to lose even more than you are now. We’re 2 generations removed from that form of worship. Very few people my age (early 30’s) and younger are going to be very accepting of that form of Mass any more, cause we have no connection to it. We’re accustomed to folk music, and holding hands, and speaking English. Not sitting silently and watching a ceremony in Latin.

I agree with you on this. I do think there should be more Latin Masses available, but I don’t see people going back to it, in large numbers anyway.

Sometimes I can’t believe that these are the two choices, at least in my area. They are so different from each other, two extremes really.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

There are obviously larger issues with the Church than just the Mass. I not going to pretend like I have the answers, but I do believe if you go back you’re going to lose even more than you are now. We’re 2 generations removed from that form of worship. Very few people my age (early 30’s) and younger are going to be very accepting of that form of Mass any more, cause we have no connection to it. We’re accustomed to folk music, and holding hands, and speaking English. Not sitting silently and watching a ceremony in Latin.

Yeah, I’m going to have to disagree with that, seeing as how I’m younger than 30 and have a great distaste for folk music. I am attracted to the reverence of the TLM and I can tell you having experienced it that it is not just sitting silently and watching a ceremony. If you think that then you’ve never been to a EF Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

Not sitting silently and watching a ceremony in Latin.

More like kneeling, not sitting.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

We’re 2 generations removed from that form of worship. Very few people my age (early 30’s) and younger are going to be very accepting of that form of Mass any more, cause we have no connection to it. We’re accustomed to folk music, and holding hands, and speaking English. Not sitting silently and watching a ceremony in Latin.

And yet there is a booming attendance of the young—and in many cases young families—at the Extraordinary Form. Societies and Orders that live according to the liturgical norms of 1962 are some of the largest growing in the Western world. They’re actually getting vocations.

Those of us who grew up in the 80s and more so the 90s (when the hangover hit home) feel robbed. But we’re also discovering the heritage of ours that was sold. And we’re loving it.

 

[pilots13]

Yeah, I’m going to have to disagree with that, seeing as how I’m younger than 30 and have a great distaste for folk music. I am attracted to the reverence of the TLM and I can tell you having experienced it that it is not just sitting silently and watching a ceremony. If you think that then you’ve never been to a EF Mass.

I have been to a EF Mass for the simple fact I wanted to see what one was like, so I know first hand the difference. Also, I realize there are people my age who hate folk music, just like I know there are people my grandparents age who love it. But the majority of people in our age range will chose a folk Mass over a traditional Mass. Why do you think so many young people are leaving the Catholic Church for these mega evangelical churches? They aren’t putting on traditional Catholic style Masses, and they’re drawing people away.

 

[pilots13]

And yet there is a booming attendance of the young—and in many cases young families—at the Extraordinary Form. Societies and Orders that live according to the liturgical norms of 1962 are some of the largest growing in the Western world. They’re actually getting vocations.

Those of us who grew up in the 80s and more so the 90s (when the hangover hit home) feel robbed. But we’re also discovering the heritage of ours that was sold. And we’re loving it.

Well that might be the case where you are, but it’s the exact opposite here. We recently did some major parish restructuring in our Archdiocese (merging, closing, clustering, etc). In St Paul, they closed/merged 2 parishes and one was one of the few traditional Churchs which still used it’s communion rail. Meanwhile the very progressive Catholic Church over in Minneapolis is bursting with parishioners, to the point they barely use their actual church building any more cause it’s too small for the crowds they get at all their weekend Masses.

 

[pilots13]

First up, there is the question of whether or not they are really needed. But let’s assume they are for the sake of this argument. I would prefer they were men, just as I would prefer that the lector was a man, and just as I would prefer that the altar servers were boys and not girls. If that technically makes me a sexist, guilty as charged.

Why only men? I thought Men and Women were equal in the Church (sans priesthood). If a lay man can be a lector or Eucharistic minister, or server, why can’t a lay woman?

 

[ProVobis]

Why do you think so many young people are leaving the Catholic Church for these mega evangelical churches? They aren’t putting on traditional Catholic style Masses, and they’re drawing people away.

People were leaving the Catholic Church when the traditional practices were being discontinued in the 60’s and 70’s as well.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

I have been to a EF Mass for the simple fact I wanted to see what one was like, so I know first hand the difference. Also, I realize there are people my age who hate folk music, just like I know there are people my grandparents age who love it. But the majority of people in our age range will chose a folk Mass over a traditional Mass. Why do you think so many young people are leaving the Catholic Church for these mega evangelical churches? They aren’t putting on traditional Catholic style Masses, and they’re drawing people away.

How many of the people that do that have even heard of TLM? Also, remember that theses services tend to play on emotions. People are easily suckered into that. Catholic parishes should not try to emulate that but rather offer a reverent service that can’t be found anywhere else. That is the TLM.

 

[pilots13]

People were leaving the Catholic Church when the traditional practices were being discontinued in the 60’s and 70’s as well.

Then maybe the kind of Mass we celebrate isn’t the issue. Let the progressive churches have their folk Masses and the traditional churches have their Latin. And not try to push everyone back towards the Latin. Instead try to find the true reason people are leaving the Church.