American Flag in Sanctuary

[judicame]

My opinion…national and political flags have no place in a Catholic Church. They’ll always be of the world and its ambiguity. Just my opinion

When Elizabeth Tudor’s entourage went around white-washing walls and scratching out devotional pictures, they replaced them with coats of arms and state regalia to indicate that people’s spiritual life was now regulated by the political state - a constant danger. You can still see the results in Anglican churches today - what’s left of them.

 

[jman507]

In my opinion, I am a catholic and I am an American. I cannot say I’m happy about every action America has taken nor could I say the same about the Catholic Church. If a church wants another flag to celebrate the immagrants that where the founders of it, fine by me. If the Poles want to be happy they had a pope from their idenity, great I have no problem with that. JPII can embrace his Polish culture I have no problem with that. Pope Benedict can embrace his German culture, even if he doesn’t have to like the Nazi past. Fine by me. It’s good to understand the good parts of the culture along with the not so good. Nor for that matter one should renounce his family if some member are getting along badly. If that is the case they need you all the more.

Can one embrace their cultural heritage while still being one with the human race? I think you can. In fact I would probably perfer it. It’s a good thing to know that we are all different yet the same at the same time.

 

[surfinpure]

There was a large American flag draped over the bannister in our choir loft the day my of my wedding, which was only three weeks after 9/11. I’m proud it’s in my wedding pictures! I have no objection to the flag at all as long as it’s displayed farther back in the church so as not to take attention away from the sanctuary and religious imagery.

I believe we need the reminder that we have a cross to bear here in America. It’s not a matter of national pride, it’s a matter of spiritual responsibility.

 

[catholicanarchy]

jman507:

In my opinion, I am a catholic and I am an American. I cannot say I’m happy about every action America has taken nor could I say the same about the Catholic Church. If a church wants another flag to celebrate the immagrants that where the founders of it, fine by me. If the Poles want to be happy they had a pope from their idenity, great I have no problem with that. JPII can embrace his Polish culture I have no problem with that. Pope Benedict can embrace his German culture, even if he doesn’t have to like the Nazi past. Fine by me. It’s good to understand the good parts of the culture along with the not so good. Nor for that matter one should renounce his family if some member are getting along badly. If that is the case they need you all the more.

Can one embrace their cultural heritage while still being one with the human race? I think you can. In fact I would probably perfer it. It’s a good thing to know that we are all different yet the same at the same time.

Sure, it’s possible to be both. But it’s not appropriate at Mass, not in the sanctuary. Hell, it’s great to pray for the safety of our soldiers and stuff during the prayers of the faithful. But I don’t want a flag staring me in the face when I’m trying to worship the Christ. And I certainly don’t want to sing the national anthem or other patriotinc songs at Mass either. I come to Mass to sing to Jesus, not to sing to America. Not recognizing that separation comes awfully close to idolatry.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Prayers from Mass celebrated on July 4, Independence Day:

Collect:

Father of the family of nations,
open our heart to greater love of your Son.
Grant that the boundaries of nations
will not set limits to our love
and give us the courage to build a land
that serves you in truth and justice.
Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son…

Postcommunion:

God our Father,
through the power of this Eucharist
keep us constant in the love of your Son.
Help us to play our part in the life of this nation,
that its thoughts may be directed
toward peace, justice,
and the loving service of all mankind.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.

I suppose someone will tell me those prayers don’t belong in the sanctuary either?

 

[surfinpure]

The closing hymn for our Memorial Day service this past Sunday was “America the Beautiful.” I thought it was touching.

 

[Trelow]

Chris Jacobsen:

To blindly support war, including unjust war, is perhaps the very worst reason to keep a flag of any country in the sanctuary of a church. A flag in the sanctuary clearly shows that the clergy would gladly defy the laws of God in order to support the civil authorities in waging unjust war against helpless civilians in other countries.

You do not have authority over anyone outside of your home to declare the war in Iraq as unjust.

Sorry.

USA! USA! USA!

 

[Trelow]

Dr. Bombay:

Prayers from Mass celebrated on July 4, Independence Day:

Collect:

Postcommunion:

I suppose someone will tell me those prayers don’t belong in the sanctuary either?

And what about the flag on the coffins of vets during thier funeral?

 

[catholicanarchy]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

The closing hymn for our Memorial Day service this past Sunday was “America the Beautiful.” I thought it was touching.

Do you mean the closing song for the liturgy celebrating the feast of the Body and Blood of Our Lord? Because THAT’s what I celebrated on Sunday. I don’t know about you.

At our eucharistic celebtration, we closed with “America The Beautiful” too. And I walked out. I think it is strange how a) the congregation sang the song with so much more fervor than they do for the traditional liturgical music and b) the music director chose to sing EVERY VERSE of the song when he usually only does 1 or 2 verses for closing songs on a typical Sunday.

We as Catholics – and this is something that plagues many non-Catholic churches as well – have our priorities and our allegiances mixed up. Ask any Catholic what feast we celebrated this past Sunday, and I’ll bet you most will say “Memorial Day.” No, we didn’t.

 

[catholicanarchy]

Dr. Bombay:

Prayers from Mass celebrated on July 4, Independence Day:

Collect:

Postcommunion:

I suppose someone will tell me those prayers don’t belong in the sanctuary either?

Well, that’s different because those are prayers directed to God and they are concerned with the Church doing its part to promote peace and justice. They also are, clearly, not nation-centered to the point that they focus on the nation-state as an end in itself. In the Church’s wisdom, she worded the prayers in order to emphasize that our focus, as Church, transcends national boundaries.

Singing patriotic songs in Church, though, is misplaced. They border on nation-worship. And flags in the sanctuary suggest the sanctity of the nation-state.

 

[catholicanarchy]

Trelow:

You do not have authority over anyone outside of your home to declare the war in Iraq as unjust.

Sorry.

USA! USA! USA!

No, but Pope John Paul II certainly did. And so did Benedict when he was Cardinal Ratzinger.

Sorry.

Prince of Peace! Prince of Peace! Prince of Peace!

 

[catholicanarchy]

Trelow:

And what about the flag on the coffins of vets during thier funeral?

I have a real problem with that too, as you may have guessed. The white pall that adorns coffins at funerals is, as you probably know, meant to recall the garment one receives at baptism. Unless one was clothed with an American flag at one’s baptism, I think the practice of flag-draped coffins misses the point of the symbolism entirely and is a complete insult to one’s dignity as a baptized Christian.

 

[Trelow]

Grace and Glory:

We have this stained glass window at our church:http://www.newmanfoundation.org/cha...oundation.org/chapel/windows/images/clear.gif

I think it has a nice theme with honoring soldiers who gave their lives for our nation while at the same time showing that our first loyalty is not to our country, but to Christ.

Wow, I love it. Have you all made any prayer cards with that window on them?

 

[chicago]

Trelow:

And what about the flag on the coffins of vets during thier funeral?

Actually, at a Catholic funeral, the American flag is properly to be removed and folded up; being set aside while the liturgical pall (representing the person’s baptism) replaces it as the appropriate dignified symbol during the Requiem Mass. Following the Mass (at the exit of the Church), proper protocol is to replace the national flag after the funeral pall is removed.

 

[chicago]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

The closing hymn for our Memorial Day service this past Sunday was “America the Beautiful.” I thought it was touching.

It’s a nice song. Though I personally prefer God of our Fathers, and wish it were used more commonly.

 

[Trelow]

chicago:

Actually, at a Catholic funeral, the American flag is properly to be removed and folded up; being set aside while the liturgical pall (representing the person’s baptism) replaces it as the appropriate dignified symbol during the Requiem Mass. Following the Mass (at the exit of the Church), proper protocol is to replace the national flag after the funeral pall is removed.

Hmm, we never did it right then. Every Catholic funeral we have done, we left the flag on the casket.

 

[catholicanarchy]

chicago:

Actually, at a Catholic funeral, the American flag is properly to be removed and folded up; being set aside while the liturgical pall (representing the person’s baptism) replaces it as the appropriate dignified symbol during the Requiem Mass. Following the Mass (at the exit of the Church), proper protocol is to replace the national flag after the funeral pall is removed.

Ah good. Thanks for clearing that up. And the reason that is the protocol, I would guess, is that the Church - in her wisdom - knows that keeping the flag on the casket throughout the Mass would be blasphemous.

 

[chicago]

Trelow:

Hmm, we never did it right then. Every Catholic funeral we have done, we left the flag on the casket.

Well, it’s more the responsibility of the priest and funeral director to make sure the protocol and liturgical norms are followed than anything. It’s not the end of the world, but the symbolism which it speaks is important. Sort of like an old tradition where the king would knock on the Church door (I forget, it may have been a ceremony for the announcement of the arrival of his body for the funeral Mass, actually). His title would be increasingly heraldic, yet the porter would repeatedly deny entry. Finally, he would announce himself (or be announced, if it were in fact a funeral) by “(his baptismal name), sinner!” to which the doors would open wide to welcome him in. Anyway, just be careful what you admit to around here lest everybody jump all over it, decrying the “liturgical abuse”.

 

[Trelow]

chicago:

Well, it’s more the responsibility of the priest and funeral director to make sure the protocol and liturgical norms are followed than anything. It’s not the end of the world, but the symbolism which it speaks is important. Sort of like an old tradition where the king would knock on the Church door (I forget, it may have been a ceremony for the announcement of the arrival of his body for the funeral Mass, actually). His title would be increasingly heraldic, yet the porter would repeatedly deny entry. Finally, he would announce himself (or be announced, if it were in fact a funeral) by “(his baptismal name), sinner!” to which the doors would open wide to welcome him in. Anyway, just be careful what you admit to around here lest everybody jump all over it, decrying the “liturgical abuse”.

I WAS the funeral director!
Well his apprentice anyways.

As I recall though, we only did one in a Catholic parish while I was there, it was a rather trying day, we (funeral directors and the priest) were too busy fighting the family to worry about much else.

Every other Catholic vet we did at graveside.

 

[chicago]

Trelow:

I WAS the funeral director!
Well his apprentice anyways.

Somehow I figured that was probably the case.

As I recall though, we only did one in a Catholic parish while I was there, it was a rather trying day, we (funeral directors and the priest) were too busy fighting the family to worry about much else.

Yeah, that’s where I think a little understanding and leeway is legitimate. It’s not easy dealing with people going through such strive who can get very insistent upon things.

Every other Catholic vet we did at graveside.

No Mass? Sad.

Come to think of it, I should talk to my neighborhood mortician (who’s also an usher at my parish) sometime about this. He’s been in the business for a couple-three decade and probably can tell every story in the book.