Americanism

[napad]

An intersting side note is thatthe Bishop of Baltimore used to be the primate of the USA (i.e. Head Bishop) but he seemed to have lost this position since Leo XIII because he tried to deny that this heresy was in the USA. That it was only in France but Leo XIII still sent it to the USA.

 

[CentralFLJames]

This is heresy that separates what you hear called “neo conservative Catholics” versus those who are “Traditional and funny authentic Catholics”

Separation of Church and State is an error! It is not the ideal! The Church should guide the state, the Church law should have precedent over state law, the Bishops of the Church should be required to approve any laws proposed by lawmakers.

As for freedom of the press, error has no right! Even our modern Catechism says that law makers have the duty to make porn illegal, authentic Catholicism teaches that heresy, impurity all kinds of poison should not be freely available!

We are all Catholics first, members of that consecrated nation, that people set apart!

America lost its consecration to God when it sanctioned death on demand - abortion. God’s wrath WILL be poured out soon and the “experiment” of Democracy will failed and HAS failed - miserably. It is over - look around to see the kind of leaders it has produced. The world is going to reel at what happens. God’s Justice can no longer be held back through the prayers of The Catholic Church - the time has come for a chastisement.

James

 

[Arclight]

America lost its consecration to God when it sanctioned death on demand - abortion. God’s wrath WILL be poured out soon and the “experiment” of Democracy will failed and HAS failed - miserably. It is over - look around to see the kind of leaders it has produced. The world is going to reel at what happens. God’s Justice can no longer be held back through the prayers of The Catholic Church - the time has come for a chastisement.

James

let’s see. how do I put this …

don’t hold your breath.

you say democracy has failed, are you proposing a Catholic theocracy?

 

[CentralFLJames]

let’s see. how do I put this …

don’t hold your breath.

you say democracy has failed, are you proposing a Catholic theocracy?

Yes Democracy failed - a long time ago. We have operated in a Socialistic Republic under the illusion of a Democracy and moral-law for some time now. The appointed justices, all corrupt, removed all semblance of self-rule long ago. There are no free choices of leaders - the choices are an illusion. When a government can not protect its most innocent citizens and in fact hides behind corrupt laws to victimize them and persecute God’s people then that system of government has failed and has lost its legitimacy. I did not propose a replacement system since that implies that there will be something still remaining of any semblance of a unified nation.

Would you call warring states and theifdoms a government or would you call it what it is - chaos and a law of intimidation? The same pattern will be seen all throughout the world as ideologically opposed nations (or what remain of them) will form socio-economic partnerships of convenience just to subjugate and dominate others to serve the more strong allegiances. Allegiances will not be centered on moral principals or common values but only on what permits the survival with the least cost. Allegiances will come and go based on perceptions of which nation has the momentary advantage and which allegiances can offer the least loss of collateral damage and mutual threat.

Ultimately God will intervene and chastise the entire planet - there will be only one remaining faith and it will be The Catholic Church. A subsidiary based monarchy loyal and cooperative to the pontiff will be the system of government.

James

 

[Arclight]

Yes Democracy failed - a long time ago. We have operated in a Socialistic Republic under the illusion of a Democracy and moral-law for some time now. The appointed justices, all corrupt, removed all semblance of self-rule long ago.

federal judges have always been appointed under Article III of the Constitution. state judges are, I’m guessing, typically appointed and confirmed by election or simply elected. they are occasionally removed from office by impeachment. the point being, regarding the judiciary, “self-rule” is a strawman argument.

There are no free choices of leaders - the choices are an illusion. When a government can not protect its most innocent citizens and in fact hides behind corrupt laws to victimize them and persecute God’s people then that system of government has failed and has lost its legitimacy. I did not propose a replacement system since that implies that there will be something still remaining of any semblance of a unified nation.

since most of that is conclusory, there’s not much to add except I disagree with nearly all. I understand that your ox was gored, but still, rejecting this form of government is a wholesale surrender to those who we oppose. which I won’t do, mostly. sometimes.

Would you call warring states and theifdoms a government or would you call it what it is - chaos and a law of intimidation? The same pattern will be seen all throughout the world as ideologically opposed nations (or what remain of them) will form socio-economic partnerships of convenience just to subjugate and dominate others to serve the more strong allegiances. Allegiances will not be centered on moral principals or common values but only on what permits the survival with the least cost. Allegiances will come and go based on perceptions of which nation has the momentary advantage and which allegiances can offer the least loss of collateral damage and mutual threat.

I have no idea what you mean. I’m not intimidated by anyone and while I’m not happy that my values aren’t the current goals of this Administration, I’m not in panic mode calling down fire and brimstone. And when, ever, was there a reign of peace where there weren’t warring factions? What year was that?

Ultimately God will intervene and chastise the entire planet - there will be only one remaining faith and it will be The Catholic Church. A subsidiary based monarchy loyal and cooperative to the pontiff will be the system of government.

James

an American monarchy loyal to Rome? I don’t think so, my friend. I can imagine how bad the persecutions would be, which would not end until your particular version of Roman Catholicism prevailed.

 

[napad]

If this thread is about the heresy of Americanism could some one direct me to the Church document that ya’ll are discussing with because this seems more like a political and philosophical debat

 

[Arclight]

Tomarin didn’t mention a particular church document, I offered one definition, others offered different ones. If you really want to keep the thread on topic, let Tomarin define his term.

 

[napad]

Tomarin didn’t mention a particular church document, I offered one definition, others offered different ones. If you really want to keep the thread on topic, let Tomarin define his term.

If he said he wanted to understand if it is a still a heresy wouldn’t it make sense to Know what Leo XIII said?
Because you all may have good intentions but you may not be talking about this heresy if you don’t go to the Church documents . I don’t think he has to define it since Leo XIII already has.

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

The wiki post isn’t accurate

TESTEM BENEVOLENTIAE NOSTRAE
Concerning New Opinions, Virtue, Nature And Grace, With Regard To Americanism
Pope Leo XIII
The underlying principle of these new opinions is that, in order to more easily attract those who differ from her, the Church should shape her teachings more in accord with the spirit of the age and relax some of her ancient severity and make some concessions to new opinions. Many think that these concessions should be made not only in regard to ways of living,** but even in regard to doctrines which belong to the deposit of the faith. **

They contend that it would be opportune, in order to gain those who differ from us, to omit certain points of her teaching which are of lesser importance, and to tone down the meaning which the Church has always attached to them. It does not need many words, beloved son, to prove the falsity of these ideas if the nature and origin of the doctrine which the Church proposes are recalled to mind. The Vatican Council says concerning this point: "For the doctrine of faith which God has revealed has not been proposed, like a philosophical invention to be perfected by human ingenuity, but has been delivered as a divine deposit to the Spouse of Christ to be faithfully kept and infallibly declared. Hence that meaning of the sacred dogmas is perpetually to be retained which our Holy Mother, the Church, has once declared, nor is that meaning ever to be departed from under the pretense or pretext of a deeper comprehension of them." —Constitutio de Fide Catholica,

here is a link to the whole document

In other words, the heresy is don’t preach it if it could irritate someone. There is more to this heresy but that is one of the main points.This heresy is alive and well in the USA. I think it is more popular than Modernism (its sister heresy).
For example I went to mass for All Souls day. The sermon spoke about our departed love ones in heaven. At the end of the mass we prayed for the faithful departed.
I asked the priest “Why did we pray FOR the faithful departed at the end of mass?”

He said, “Because we miss them.”

I said “Not because they may be in Purgatory? Isn’t that still a Dogma Father?”

His face dropped and he stutter out “yes, oh, yes that’s still a teaching.”

I said “Well I wouldn’t have known it by your sermon, father. That’s why the feast of All Souls day was started- to pray and understand the dogma of Purgatory! Wasn’t it?”

When was the last time you heard a sermon on hell?
On the Rosary? on Mortal and Venial Sin? etc…

The Pope was right here, that’s what America is all about, not offending people. Abortion and “gay marriage” are wrong but people don’t say anything because they don’t want to offend people. Apparently, Americanism can be re-defined as accepting the opposite of the truth and tolerating it, so as not to offend people, or letting them live in falsehood.

The American definition of “freedom” clashes with mine…

 

[napad]

The Pope was right here, that’s what America is all about, not offending people. Abortion and “gay marriage” are wrong but people don’t say anything because they don’t want to offend people. Apparently, Americanism can be re-defined as accepting the opposite of the truth and tolerating it, so as not to offend people, or letting them live in falsehood.

The American definition of “freedom” clashes with mine…

I think we have to be careful in criticizing America as a whole and this heresy. There are some fine ideas and practices here in the States and some that need to be corrected.

And I agree Americanism is alive and well here in the States and all over the world. Popes JPII and B16 are at fault for not clarifying and condemning heresies.

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

I think we have to be careful in criticizing America as a whole and this heresy. There are some fine ideas and practices here in the States and some that need to be corrected.

And I agree Americanism is alive and well here in the States and all over the world. Popes JPII and B16 are at fault for not clarifying and condemning heresies.

I agree I did criticize the States, where I live, but the reason it’s called “Americanism” is because of its place of origin.

 

[Arclight]

The Pope was right here, that’s what America is all about, not offending people. Abortion and “gay marriage” are wrong but people don’t say anything because they don’t want to offend people. Apparently, Americanism can be re-defined as accepting the opposite of the truth and tolerating it, so as not to offend people, or letting them live in falsehood.

The American definition of “freedom” clashes with mine…

(emphasis added)

That isn’t right. America is tolerant, but toleration does not equal “not wanting to offend”. The men who established the present form of government were prepared to accept compromises to avoid the problems of intolerance, which they would have known first hand. You don’t have to like gay rights and the first amendment lets you argue against them all you want, but you have to tolerate them, in the same way that the most virulent anti-Catholics must tolerate us. The government should be influenced by its constituents, but we simply cannot afford to have it take direction from any non-governmental group.

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

(emphasis added)

That isn’t right. America is tolerant, but toleration does not equal “not wanting to offend”. The men who established the present form of government were prepared to accept compromises to avoid the problems of intolerance, which they would have known first hand. You don’t have to like gay rights and the first amendment lets you argue against them all you want, but you have to tolerate them, in the same way that the most virulent anti-Catholics must tolerate us. The government should be influenced by its constituents, but we simply cannot afford to have it take direction from any non-governmental group.

IMO, the government should establish the truth. Not controlled by people who allow terrible things to happen. (abortion) or wrong things (“gay marriage”)

I guess I’m a monarchist. ( a Catholic monarchist)

 

[CentralFLJames]

an American monarchy loyal to Rome? I don’t think so, my friend. I can imagine how bad the persecutions would be, which would not end until your particular version of Roman Catholicism prevailed.

You still don’t quite “get it” do you? It’s over.
America is just another country like so many that have come and gone over the centuries and gone bad. A remnant will come out of her - but by and large America will be unrecognizable as a country in most of our lifetimes.

Place your faith in God and Church - not in the place you live. We are all just pilgrims here. I am not debating.

James

 

[Arclight]

IMO, the government should establish the truth. Not controlled by people who allow terrible things to happen. (abortion) or wrong things (“gay marriage”)

I guess I’m a monarchist. ( a Catholic monarchist)

(emphasis added)

Where does it say that in the Constitution?

Absolutism has a way of getting out of control. You may want to think that a Catholic monarchy is a good idea, but look at this website and see all the disputes even among Catholics not to mention our protestant brethren and sisteren and think about what would happen when the religious police begin to enforce orthodoxy.

 

[Arclight]

You still don’t quite “get it” do you? It’s over.
America is just another country like so many that have come and gone over the centuries and gone bad. A remnant will come out of her - but by and large America will be unrecognizable as a country in most of our lifetimes.

Place your faith in God and Church - not in the place you live. We are all just pilgrims here. I am not debating.

James

I like it here: the form of government, and for the most part, the practice of government, even when my people aren’t running the show. I don’t get wound up over dissent or someone’s lifestyle that isn’t mine. I don’t believe in a “golden age” from which we’ve descended to these “depraved times”. Anyone who is disgusted with the U.S. doesn’t have to stay, no doubt there are thousands of better places to live.

 

[The_Barbarian]

That isn’t right. America is tolerant, but toleration does not equal “not wanting to offend”. The men who established the present form of government were prepared to accept compromises to avoid the problems of intolerance, which they would have known first hand. You don’t have to like gay rights and the first amendment lets you argue against them all you want, but you have to tolerate them, in the same way that the most virulent anti-Catholics must tolerate us. The government should be influenced by its constituents, but we simply cannot afford to have it take direction from any non-governmental group.

Good point. An American theocracy would almost certainly be one that would close Catholic Churches. I’m looking through history and I see no examples of a “Christian theocracy” that didn’t lead to persecution, sin, and horror.

God neither needs nor wants help from the government. He wants your love and Christian action.

 

[anon5216]

Yes Democracy failed - a long time ago.
…
Ultimately God will intervene and chastise the entire planet - there will be only one remaining faith and it will be The Catholic Church. A subsidiary based monarchy loyal and cooperative to the pontiff will be the system of government.

James

Europe already had what you propose and it definitely failed - long before the U.S. was an independent country.

Eventually, people’s spiritual understanding and experience will transcend words.
Not too long after enough reach that state, all religions will fall by the wayside - the more obsessed they are with the form of their words over the substance that the words merely attempt to express, the quicker the fall.

 

[neophyte]

Are you kidding me?The greeks invented democracy NOT America…

America isn’t a democracy - it’s a representative republic.

Who invented that?

 

[The_Barbarian]

America isn’t a democracy - it’s a representative republic.

Who invented that?

Romans.