Americanized Latin Pronunciation

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I first noticed it months ago at my parish’s Midnight Mass: Latin being spoken and sung with a distinct “American accent”. Impure vowels, dipthongs, cringe-worthy Rs, etc. “Gl-ohur-ee-uh ihn exshellsees Day-o!”. Now, whenever I’m at my parish (or others, for that matter), I cannot help but notice that this pronunciation seems to be the norm.

Does anyone else encounter this at their parishes? How does it make you feel?
 
Does anyone else encounter this at their parishes? How does it make you feel?
Oh, it makes me want to retch and it invalidates the entire mass. Even the hosts in the tabernacle will deconsecrate at this abuse.

Seriously, everybody pronounces Latin according to a “national accent”, and not necessarily according to the directions of the Liber.

I’ve heard recordings from Solemes where the monks sang Compline thus: “Jübe, Domne, benediTSerhe”, instead of “benediCHere” and that distinctive French U and R.

German monks would sing, “Gloria in ex-kel-sis Deo . . . bon-eye WO-lun-ta-tis.”
 
Cluny said:
Oh, it makes me want to retch and it invalidates the entire mass. Even the hosts in the tabernacle will deconsecrate at this abuse.

Sarcasm is completely unnecessary. At no point did I refer to this as an “abuse”. This thread was made because I’m beginning to notice this more and more, and I was wondering how others on this board thought about it. Now, later in your post you go on to share your thoughts. Personally, I feel that that was all that you ought to have shared.
Cluny;4814136:
Seriously, everybody pronounces Latin according to a “national accent”, and not necessarily according to the directions of the Liber.
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While there are slightly different traditional phonologies for Ecclesiastical Latin (for example, in Germany it is traditional to pronounce the letter C as /ts/), there are some things (such as pure vowels) that are (ideally, at least) present in all national pronunciations.

To say that “everybody” pronounces Latin with a profound accent (beyond what is called for in the traditional pronunciation of a particular group) is simply not true. Some people or choirs are better at it than others.
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Cluny said:
Does anyone else encounter this at their parishes? How does it make you feel?
Oh, it makes me want to retch and it invalidates the entire mass. Even the hosts in the tabernacle will deconsecrate at this abuse.

Seriously, everybody pronounces Latin according to a “national accent”, and not necessarily according to the directions of the Liber.

I’ve heard recordings from Solemes where the monks sang Compline thus: “Jübe, Domne, benediTSerhe”, instead of “benediCHere” and that distinctive French U and R.

German monks would sing, “Gloria in ex-kel-sis Deo . . . bon-eye WO-lun-ta-tis.”
Click to expand...
In the German’s case, it seems they are substituting Classical for Church Latin: C and G always hard, even before an e, i, æ or œ; V always vocalic or semi-vocalic, never consonantal; etc etc.

I have read that at various Church councils, bishops from Italy complained at the poor Latin of the English prelates, who laughed at that of the Germans, etc.

Besides, I’d worry about you Colonists getting the correct pronunciation of the King’s English down first, before worrying about Latin. :rolleyes:

😃
 
I’m trying to find some good online sites where I can listen to Latin pronounced correctly. Unfortunately some posters have directed me to sites where I find Latin being spoken with a distinct American nasal twang and it sounds horrible.
Does anyone know of any sites where a European is talking Latin as this substantially raises the chances of the pronounciation being correct?

I just want to add that I don’t mean all Americans are bad at speaking foreign languages nor all Europeans are good but in general that is the case.
 
Insomniac said:
Does anyone else encounter this at their parishes?
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Are you *in *America? If so, it should hardly be surprising. If not, I am at a loss for explanation.

🤷
Insomniac said:
How does it make you feel?
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I generally feel a-tingle when I encounter a Latin Rite parish that makes an effort to establish the Latin language as the norm.

:twocents:
tee
 
Of course I’ve heard this. I’ve sung in choirs that do this. But you know, sometimes this is just something you have to deal with.

The thing to remember is that you’re listening to a church choir and that those people singing are volunteers, most probably of varying musical backgrounds. They’re trying their best and sometimes with people who have absolutely no musical experience, you can work on one thing for an entire 2 hour rehearsal (vowel purity, in this case) and every person will sing it “wrong” on Sunday–or maybe only one or two people will sing it “wrong” and then the blend is distorted and that’s all you hear.

Want Latin singing in the Mass? A risk you take in executing such a thing is that some people might not pronounce the words correctly.

At the other end of the spectrum, if you want the choral blend, intonation, diction, and vowel purity of a professional chamber choir during Mass, then most often, you’re going to have to deal with the arrogance and showmanship of a professional choir. You can’t convince me that’s good liturgy any day.

:twocents:
 
Hmmmm…

Americanized Latin pronunciation of Hebrew in Greek dialect with a Roman accent. :rolleyes:
 
tee_eff_em said:
Let me know when you find a site with recordings of a native speaker. :ehh:
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That reminds me. Rosetta Stone language software promises that all of the lessons are given by people of each native tongue. Latin is one of those languages. I thought this was hilarious. :whacky:

I downloaded the demo and sure enough, there was a male and female and each pronounced the words differently. True to what was said above, the male (I think) had a more European accent and seemed to pronounce the words better than the female, who if I remember correctly was American.

But that was over a year ago, so I may have gotten it the other way around.
 
tee_eff_em said:
Let me know when you find a site with recordings of a native speaker. :ehh:

tee
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Good one!!
I’m saying that Americans in general cannot pronounce Latin (or other foreign languages) properly because of their nasal twang. Although Latin is a dead language it is a European language and can be pronounced better by Europeans.
 
Maybe you could search for recordings regarding Latin diction on a vocal performance website… I’m leaving for Mass in a few minutes, so I don’t have enough time to look for it myself (or I would)… I’ll check when I get back home from Church.

Oh man… my knuckles still hurt from mis-pronouncing Latin in voice lessons when I was 12 or so. :)😉
 
Insomniac said:
I first noticed it months ago at my parish’s Midnight Mass: Latin being spoken and sung with a distinct “American accent”. Impure vowels, dipthongs, cringe-worthy Rs, etc. “Gl-ohur-ee-uh ihn exshellsees Day-o!”. Now, whenever I’m at my parish (or others, for that matter), I cannot help but notice that this pronunciation seems to be the norm.

Does anyone else encounter this at their parishes? How does it make you feel?
Click to expand...
Well, since I will be one of those pronouncing it incorrectly I probably wouldn’t notice. 😉 I would also think…“great, they’re trying to put more Latin back in the Mass.”
 
Ghoti said:
In the German’s case, it seems they are substituting Classical for Church Latin: C and G always hard, even before an e, i, æ or œ; V always vocalic or semi-vocalic, never consonantal; etc etc.
Click to expand...
I rather doubt that. In the case of the Germans, it seems to me they pronounce Latin using the German standard. Just as the French do (and yes, I know it’s not authentic, but I rather like it anyway), just as the Spaniards do, just as the Portuguese do … etc. Frankly, I don’t mind the German pronunciation either. I know what to expect and just go with the flow.

The problem with non-British English speakers is that they tend to “flatten”(for lack of a better word) everything, making the Latin sound like … well, I don’t know what it sounds like, but it’s not Latin. (For some reason, the Brits seem to do a better job with Latin pronunciation in general.)

What little Latin I know was learned from a combination of native French and Italian speakers, so my pronunciation would be criticized as a combination of the two. But it works for me 😉
 
thistle said:
Does anyone know of any sites where a European is talking Latin as this substantially raises the chances of the pronounciation being correct?
Click to expand...
Try the following link to the Vatican Radio. It has daily recordings of the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin. With very few exceptions all parts of the recordings are entirely in Latin made by Europeans, (Italians, to be precise):

radiovaticana.org/en1/on_demand.asp?gr=ltg

Pay particularly close attention to the introduction in which a narrator speaking in Latin introduces the Hour to be said.
 
malphono said:
I rather doubt that. In the case of the Germans, it seems to me they pronounce Latin using the German standard. Just as the French do (and yes, I know it’s not authentic, but I rather like it anyway), just as the Spaniards do, just as the Portuguese do … etc. Frankly, I don’t mind the German pronunciation either. I know what to expect and just go with the flow.

The problem with non-British English speakers is that they tend to “flatten”(for lack of a better word) everything, making the Latin sound like … well, I don’t know what it sounds like, but it’s not Latin. (For some reason, the Brits seem to do a better job with Latin pronunciation in general.)

What little Latin I know was learned from a combination of native French and Italian speakers, so my pronunciation would be criticized as a combination of the two. But it works for me 😉
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I can understand Insomniac’s frustration. The problem of Latin pronunciation by Americans is well explained in the above quote. I would just like to add that no matter if the speaker is German, Spanish or Portuguese, their pronunciation of Latin will always be far better than the American pronunciation thanks to the fact that the vowels in their native tongue is virtually the same as in Latin. English vowel sounds are a complete different ball game.
 
Cluny said:
Does anyone else encounter this at their parishes? How does it make you feel?
Oh, it makes me want to retch and it invalidates the entire mass. Even the hosts in the tabernacle will deconsecrate at this abuse.

Seriously, everybody pronounces Latin according to a “national accent”, and not necessarily according to the directions of the Liber.

I’ve heard recordings from Solemes where the monks sang Compline thus: “Jübe, Domne, benediTSerhe”, instead of “benediCHere” and that distinctive French U and R.

German monks would sing, “Gloria in ex-kel-sis Deo . . . bon-eye WO-lun-ta-tis.”
Click to expand...
Seldom does a post make me do a double take, but yours did! Nicely done; good use of humor. 🙂

I know a rabbi with a deep, Southern US drawl, so I’m going to guess his Hebrew isn’t quite like the Hebrew Jesus spoke. The rabbi’s congregation doesn’t seem to care.

Paul
 
Sarcasm is completely unnecessary.
It’s quite necessary. Get a life.
 
thistle said:
Good one!!
I’m saying that Americans in general cannot pronounce Latin (or other foreign languages) properly because of their nasal twang. Although Latin is a dead language it is a European language and can be pronounced better by Europeans.
Click to expand...
I supose that I am at an advantage when it comes to Latin because I took two years of Italain in high school and know that “ce” in both Latin and Italian is pronounced “che” and “cia” is pronounced “chia”. Also having learned Spanish in school is quite helpful, although Italian has served me better for these purposes.

Interestingly enough, our very German pope has no problem with the Latin pronunciation. It is rather a fascinating and respectfully odd listentening to John Cardinal Foley pronounce the Mass prayers in Latin, as there is a slight twang in his voice.
 
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