Americans think downloading no big deal

[Hastrman]

Stealing is taking something and thereby depriving the owner of its use. Copying is creating something and not depriving anybody of anything. If you want to paint a copy of the Mona Lisa, nobody suffers and you get a nice painting. This is not equivalent to removing the painting from the museum and putting it up in your living room.

Anyone who is capable of reading a thread knows who posted the “Big Media equals Authority” argument. However, for those of you who need a little extra help, the posters were Timidy and AlegreFe.

Yes, you have made it perfectly clear that if you were to hit the “Record” button on a loaded tape deck during the Dr. Demento Show, you would feel bound to confess it at 5 pm next Saturday. Have at it - for myself, I will play “The Funny Five” at will. Laissez les bons temps roulez.

Here’s an idea, Paganus. Since you need patently obvious things explained to you multiple times, how about you not condescend to the people who have had to explain them to you? I didn’t care who said it.

Violating copyright law is theft. You are taking another’s intellectual property without paying them. When you take things without paying for them, they call that stealing. You remind me of Real Life Vs. The Internet: “It’s not illegal! I don’t want it to be illegal, so it’s not!”

Also, it should be “rouler” not “roulez”–it’s an infinitive. Ou as t’envie de m’ostiner de la grammaire cadienne, aussitte?

T’es bébé de couillon, oué?

I’m not replying to this thread again; you quickly deplete my stores of charity.

 

[Timidity]

Anyone who is capable of reading a thread knows who posted the “Big Media equals Authority” argument. However, for those of you who need a little extra help, the posters were Timidy and AlegreFe.

Apparently you’re one of those who is not capable of reading a thread, because I never said any such thing. Feel free to idenity the post where you think I said that.

 

[Paganus]

I never said any such thing. Feel free to idenity the post where you think I said that.

This is the post where I thought you were appealing to a fourth commandment “authority” argument versus a seventh commandment “theft” argument:

Because shoplifting is the streotypical example of violating the 7th Commandment, but copyright violation is an offense againt the 4th Commandment that takes more thinking than the average person gives moral issues.

Ironically, minor traffic violations are also sins against the 4th Commandment, so maybe the’re smarter than you think they are!

 

[Mintaka]

The vast majority of people don’t see anything wrong with downloading, because the vast majority of people see this as an application of fair use and timeshifting law.

It was and is completely legal to tape songs off the radio. Yet it’s not legal to record them off the Internet radio?

It was and is completely legal to use a VCR to tape shows off the TV, and to make copies for a few friends. Yet it’s not legal to do the same thing with a computer?

To most people, this seems like bad law, which abrogates their long-established rights (especially when Aunt Sophie tells them she forgot to record X show and needs a copy). Therefore, they see no problem with a little civil disobedience.

The Catechism is okay with civil disobedience.

Furthermore, those companies which sell movies and music for download under reasonable terms and conditions, find that most people would rather buy from them than download for free.

There are undoubtedly things being traded over the Internet that shouldn’t be – unabashedly pirated things. But there is a difference between people who are thieves and okay with that, and people who are obeying the principles of the common law and ignoring mere temporary legislation.

 

[AlegreFe]

How was I lying?

Cheating, stealing, lying,… same difference.

 

[AlegreFe]

Actually it’s stealing. Not, “could be considered;” it flat-out is.

I agree. I wanted to put that it was a lie. Lying, stealing and cheating is all the same to me. But I knew that Paganus would have such a reaction if I did and then I would just explain myself later because I knew that he would post a reply.

Hastrman:

And Paganus, whoever said Big Media was an authority over us was as utterly wrong as you are. Big Media has no authority at all–the reverse, if anything. But as it’s a group of human beings, and human beings have rights, to violate those rights is a sin. That includes stealing from them.

Sure “big media” is not an authority over us but they do own such “media” or movies or songs or whatever the case; that would mean that they “own” such media. And who are we to take just because we want? That would be stealing which is the same difference to me as lying and cheating. I consider it a lie because you are not the rightful owner but because you have it, you are saying that you are the owner and that is a lie.

 

[gmarie21]

Just a question, everyone who believes it to be stealing by downloading a movie, do you have a single copied tape or cd in your possession? Have you even once recorded a movie or tv program that you were going to miss? Have you ever made a compelation tape or cd, or a copy of a friend’s tape or cd? Have you ever made a copy of a picture (not taken from your camera or any other privately owned, non copywrited camera)? Or how about a copy of a passage from a newspaper, magazine, or book? If you have even one item of the above mentioned, then you have stolen from the individual(s) who have published that material. Have you confessed the fact that you have stolen from said company(ies)?

 

[didymus]

Just a question, everyone who believes it to be stealing by downloading a movie, do you have a single copied tape or cd in your possession? Have you even once recorded a movie or tv program that you were going to miss? Have you ever made a compelation tape or cd, or a copy of a friend’s tape or cd? Have you ever made a copy of a picture (not taken from your camera or any other privately owned, non copywrited camera)? Or how about a copy of a passage from a newspaper, magazine, or book? If you have even one item of the above mentioned, then you have stolen from the individual(s) who have published that material. Have you confessed the fact that you have stolen from said company(ies)?

I used to borrow and copy CDs but I stopped doing it years ago. As for articles, I’ve copied & pasted from news articles (with attribution and link) here and in other forums. I believe that falls within the “fair use” doctrine. As for pics, the ones I downloaded had to be confessed but I didn’t think to include copyright violation at the time.

It’s funny, the thing that made me stop copying CDs (I never downloaded because I had dialup) was when I heard the group AfroMan being interviewed. They had one hit, “But then I Got High” which they never saw a nickel from because it was all over the internet. Okay, forget what kind of group they are and what kind of song it is, here are these guys struggling, they finally get one hit (which most groups never do) and they gey robbed. Not Big Media, these poor schmucks. And if it happened to them it’s happening to other, more deserving artists.

I heard Geo. Lucas being interviewd on this issue the other day and he claimed that if downloading continues to cut into studio profits they will invest less in movies until movies become more like TV shows. No more sagas like LOTR or Star Wars. No more “big” movies like Saving Private Ryan or Titanic.

Hate “Big Media” all you want, but certain levels of production can only be done by huge corporations that can afford to risk hundreds of millions on a single film. If they’re forced to retrench the CEOs won’t be hurting, it will be the actors and caterers and key grips and all the other workers associated with the the industry.

 

[Timidity]

This is the post where I thought you were appealing to a fourth commandment “authority” argument versus a seventh commandment “theft” argument:

I was, but reading the thread you can plainly see that I said the authority was in Congress. I never said “Big Media” had authority, which is what you said I said. Nice try, though

 

[colliric]

Just a question, everyone who believes it to be stealing by downloading a movie, do you have a single copied tape or cd in your possession? Have you even once recorded a movie or tv program that you were going to miss? Have you ever made a compelation tape or cd, or a copy of a friend’s tape or cd? Have you ever made a copy of a picture (not taken from your camera or any other privately owned, non copywrited camera)? Or how about a copy of a passage from a newspaper, magazine, or book? If you have even one item of the above mentioned, then you have stolen from the individual(s) who have published that material. Have you confessed the fact that you have stolen from said company(ies)?

I also used to borrow and copy, but for me it was DVDs as I’m a big movie freak. Filmmaker Michael Moore once said any film by him may be allowed to be copied because he wants more people to see them. But he is one of the only industry supporters of it, and even so, he only allows it for HIS films.

I decided to stop mostly when I became a Christian, but also because I saw it as a bit of a moral compromise in terms of the fact I was still paying for the film, but paying a far reduced rate to keep it. I was breaking the law, but also was paying them… Its just stupid. You either pay for all, or for nothing. anything else is hypocritical or selfish.

Sometimes I am given stuff by other people which I don’t think is legal, and sometimes I will look at these things(which are mostly computer games). I won’t lie about that. I got a 500 games pack for Christmas. I admit I did play and still play some of the games. If someone close gives me something, find it hard to say no to them. I know I should but I don’;t want to make them feel bad either.

 

[Paganus]

I was, but reading the thread you can plainly see that I said the authority was in Congress. I never said “Big Media” had authority, which is what you said I said.

I see.

You further declared:

Congress receives its authority from God, so violating the law is a vioaltion of the will of God.

You also explained that this was the “nutshell” version, which is why you included a link to the Catechism.

Following your link, I see that your statement was the first section of a three-part statement expressed in 2235:

The exercise of authority is measured morally in terms of its divine origin, its reasonable nature and its specific object.

So first, we would have to establish the divine origin of the U.S. Congress.

Then we would have to establish the reasonable nature of this particular exercise of Congressional power.

Then we would have to establish the morality of the specific object of this exercise of their power.

Once we have established:

1. The divine origin of the power of the U.S. Congress
2. The reasonable nature of this exercise of Congressional power
   AND
3. The morality of the specific object of this exercise of their power
   THEN we could conclude that it is not only illegal, but immoral, to do whatever it is that Congress has forbidden us to do with respect to copying things.

Am I correct so far?

 

[Timidity]

I see.

Is that your concession that, yes, you did indeed misquote me?

 

[Hastrman]

Just a question, everyone who believes it to be stealing by downloading a movie, do you have a single copied tape or cd in your possession? Have you even once recorded a movie or tv program that you were going to miss? Have you ever made a compelation tape or cd, or a copy of a friend’s tape or cd? Have you ever made a copy of a picture (not taken from your camera or any other privately owned, non copywrited camera)? Or how about a copy of a passage from a newspaper, magazine, or book? If you have even one item of the above mentioned, then you have stolen from the individual(s) who have published that material. Have you confessed the fact that you have stolen from said company(ies)?

This verbal jugglery might be continued. It is a type of verbal difficulty apparent in every inquiry open to the professional disputant, but of no effect upon the mind of the honest inquirer whose business is not dialectic but truth.

It is always possible by establishing a cross section in a set of definitions to pose the unanswerable question of degree, but that will never affect the realities of discussion.

–Hilaire Belloc, The Servile State

And with that, I quit.

 

[xmydreamsfadex]

i listen to a lot of bands that aren’t mainstream and even though there are copyright laws in place, they (every band i met) say the same thing. “copy my music! give it to your friends! share it!” even though they might lose a few dollars here and there at least they can spread their music, create a fan base, make fans, get shows booked, and make money another way. i seriously doubt the classical artist were thinking of dollar signs and fame when they made their music. profit before music makes lousy records.