Amoris laetitia chapter 8 is so confusing!

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Pope Francis has already said that only the interpretation of the Argentine bishops is valid! so Pope Francis clearly admits that it is possible to give communion to divorced-remarried who live “more uxorio”.
I do not understand this willingness to deny such obviousness
 
oh good because it is the priest who is infallible! when we already see how bishops are divided on the correct interpretation of AL, and you ask that we rely on the judgment of a priest, well then I will choose a “modernist” and then I go quietly to sin in good conscience
Of course a priest isn’t infallible! But, theologically, he knows more than the average parishioner. And, he is trained to help couples struggling with their conscience. AL encourages priests to help those who struggle and to remember that the family is the basis for a loving society.
 
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and are not the bishops supposed to be better equipped than the priest? and we see them well divided for the interpretation of AL! the problem is that you obviously blind yourself to denying that the problem is AL itself
 
and are not the bishops supposed to be better equipped than the priest? and we see them well divided for the interpretation of AL! the problem is that you obviously blind yourself to denying that the problem is AL itself
The whole range of human existence can be seen as a problem then.
People disagree about things, and see things with different eyes, and don’t understand things sometimes. Confusion results. It take time and patience for clarity to emerge sometimes.

I think the best thing that can be said about all this is
“get over it”, and go on doing God’s will in your life with those around you, within the scope of your influence and competence.
And let theologians do what they do in their field of competence.
 
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No, the term confusion is in fact a way to exculpate a trivial contradiction between the teaching of Francis and the constant teaching of the Church on this subject. Francis has already clearly said what he wanted to convey as a message, so there is no confusions, but contradictions.
 
The letter of the Argentine bishops is here: Buenos Aires bishops’ guidelines on Amoris Laetitia: full text | Catholic Voices Comment It’s very short, so instead of cherry picking sections to quote, I suggest you read it in full. As with Amoris in general, it points out it’s not all or nothing, it’s not black or white. So, as with Amoris, you could quote passages that support both sides of the issue.

Clearly this is a MAJOR problem within the Church, and whatever your position, I think you need to give thanks to Pope Francis for bringing it out in the open and discussing it.
 
they clearly evoked the possibility of giving communion to a remarried divorcee couple who live “more uxorio”, and this is the problem, not elsewhere.
 
The divisions preceded AL, so it is unlikely AL is the cause. Two synods reflected a multitude of positions on this question.
 
Before AL, those who took communion while living as spouses, clearly violated the law of the Church, things were clear. AL came officially to create exceptions to this law, causing a break with the doctrine of the Church
 
and are not the bishops supposed to be better equipped than the priest? and we see them well divided for the interpretation of AL! the problem is that you obviously blind yourself to denying that the problem is AL itself
The divisions preceded AL, so it is unlikely AL is the cause. Two synods reflected a multitude of positions on this question.

Does that make what I said clearer? I am not suggesting there has not been “a break with the doctrine of the Church,” only that those who teach the doctrine of the Church disagreed before AL.
 
It’s all so clear to me, that these in irregular situations must have and express a genuine contrition, for the sin of knowing it is a trespass against the Sacrament of Marriage in each sexual act, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

It’s not rocket science to understand what the Church means by the indissolubility of Marriage. If they can’t understand it, it’s cuz they won’t receive it.

Can these have entered in a Christian marriage in the first place? These cafeteria Catholics have idly built up a life with a lot of indifference to the Spirit. Which is forgiven and healed (over time too) if conversion with fruits of repentance.

This stuff goes hand in hand with our knowledge about what our disposition, attitude, humility, reverence, and hope should be when we receive His Eucharist.

Maybe the Church needs to issue an inspirational exhortation about "receiving in a worthy manner?. What does it mean, in sincere faith?
 
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Maybe the Church needs to issue an inspirational exhortation about "receiving in a worthy manner?. What does it mean, in sincere faith?
How about an inspirational exhortation about marriage?
It’s all so clear to me, that these in irregular situations must have and express a genuine contrition, for the sin of knowing it is a trespass against the Sacrament of Marriage in each sexual act, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
And you do not see that clarity on your part as a problem?
 
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It’s all so clear to me, that these in irregular situations must have and express a genuine contrition, for the sin of knowing it is a trespass against the Sacrament of Marriage in each sexual act, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Ah, nice to meet you black-and-whiter! So if you find yourself in that situation you know what to do.

But that’s you. Not other people.

And that’s the issue: does the Church simply throw overboard the majority of those who say they are Catholic, or do they try and find a solution?
 
Thats what the pastor is there for. To verbalize, and express the belief of the Church. How that is received will determine if one will wash themselves in the Sacrament of Reconciliation or not.

I am in a not so different situation, myself.
 
Here we get to the biggest problem and confusion with Amoris Laetitia, in my opinion. The denial of Communion to the remarried was never primarily about personal sin, but rather the objective character of the Sacraments. This is made clear by previous statements by Popes and the CDF. Here is an excerpt from a letter from a certain prefect of the CDF about the subject:
  1. It is certainly true that a judgment about one’s own dispositions for the reception of Holy Communion must be made by a properly formed moral conscience. But it is equally true that the consent that is the foundation of marriage is not simply a private decision since it creates a specifically ecclesial and social situation for the spouses, both individually and as a couple. Thus the judgment of conscience of one’s own marital situation does not regard only the immediate relationship between man and God, as if one could prescind from the Church’s mediation, that also includes canonical laws binding in conscience. Not to recognise this essential aspect would mean in fact to deny that marriage is a reality of the Church, that is to say, a sacrament.
and also, from the Council for Legislative Texts is this official interpretation of Canon 915 (emphasis mine):
  1. The prohibition found in the cited canon, by its nature, is derived from divine law and transcends the domain of positive ecclesiastical laws: the latter cannot introduce legislative changes which would oppose the doctrine of the Church.
…

The phrase “and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin” is clear and must be understood in a manner that does not distort its sense so as to render the norm inapplicable. The three required conditions are:

a) grave sin, understood objectively, being that the minister of Communion would not be able to judge from subjective imputability;

b) obstinate persistence, which means the existence of an objective situation of sin that endures in time and which the will of the individual member of the faithful does not bring to an end, no other requirements (attitude of defiance, prior warning, etc.) being necessary to establish the fundamental gravity of the situation in the Church.

c) the manifest character of the situation of grave habitual sin.
continued…
 
Amoris Laetitia touches only on subjective culpability, not on the objective nature of the Sacraments. Previous rulings by the Church have established that this prohibition is a matter of Divine Law, not ecclesial discipline. We get sidetracked into discussions of personal culpability because of the manner in which Amoris Laetitia approaches the subject, but personal culpability is not the only factor underlying the Church’s moral teaching.

The Church is not merely a vehicle of Grace, it is objectively the Body of Christ. Our relationship with God is not reduced to the internal only, but has an objective and public character as well. In not addressing this very real and pressing concern, I believe Amoris Laetitia is confusing on much deeper ground than is typically brought up in these discussions.

Peace and God bless!
 
Is it a case of “black and white thinking” to say that a prior marriage is either a valid marriage or it is not? And to say that if a prior marriage is valid then a second one cannot be? Can a marriage by subjectively valid while being objectively invalid?

And if a marriage is not valid, is it black and white thinking to presume that Jesus’ words about divorce apply?

I gues my late aunt was a black and white thinker. Her first marriage was not declared null though her husband abandoned her. Her second marriage was a happy one, though invalid. She was a devout Catholic, attending her parish Mass faithfully for decades without receiving communion.
 
You are getting at something that I think is ultimately at the root of AL. Pope Francis is suggesting that a pastoral approach can be used to determine the validity of a previous marriage in ways a reform of canon law cannot.

Due to the nature and complexity of these exceptional circumstances, it would be impossible to write a law broad enough to account for the breadth and complexity of the issue without doing irreparable harm to the doctrine of the indissolubility of marriage itself.

As a remedy, he suggests that these complex cases be considered on a case by case basis. It is an imperfect solution to the problem. I think we also have to acknowledge that unjustly denying the sacraments to someone who would might be eligible is also an imperfect solution.
 
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Yes, but tribunals already decide complex situations on a case by case basis. Does the pastoral solution ultimately rely on a personal, individual decision as to the invalidity of a prior marriage?

If so, it seems to me that it may possibly be unfair to the other party, since there is no record of it and no annotation in the sacramental record.
 
You are nailing the concerns right on the head!

I hope everyone is carefully attentive to what you have been showing.
 
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