Amoris laetitia chapter 8 is so confusing!

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I think I am saying more about it than others have.

In Familiaris Consortis, JPII contracted “acts proper to marriage” to sex. I think that is a mistake; there are a lot more actions “proper to marriage” than sex. I would rather keep the focus on marriage rather than sex. Sex is proper to marriage, so it s part of it.

Besides, I was always taught discussion of sex is gossippy, and I’d rather avoid that hazard.
 
It’s interesting to note that the line which was drawn by both Pope John Paul II and Pope Francis is that when reception of Reconciliation and Communion is opened to couples living in “irregular situations,” it is to be done discreetly so as not to cause scandal to the rest of the faithful.

In other words, it was determined that with the guidance of the pastor that 1) no mortal sin is present, 2) the couple is aware of the irregularity of their situation, and 3) the couple is striving to live more fully in accord with the teachings of the Church to the best of their abilities.
 
I was waiting for someone to bring this up. I think PJP2 was trying to find the absolute threshold that could be in anyway argued for. But I agree. Is it acceptable for me to hangout, hold hands, sleep in the same bed, kiss, etc. with another woman other than my wife. I have a feeling my wife would construe that with cheating on an emotional level. Even on a physical level even though sex is not involved. The Church in the modern era is looking for any opportunity to mitigate and diminish the requirements of the moral law. Of course this was a comprise but is put forth as standard now. As long as they refrain from sexual act. But the objective situation, even without sex is contrary to God’s will
 
Dovekin said:
That brings up history, and what happened to the first marriage. If that marriage failed, it may not have been a real marriage; an annulment might be considered. If an annulment is not possible, or if it is denied by the Church, difficult situations arise. Does one refuse to obey the call to be fruitful and multiply? Ignore the interior promptings of body and heart that call you to marry someone? I have a hard time thinking that is the loving thing to do, just because a Cardinal in Rome has denied your annulment. Accepting that judgment may be right, but it could be wrong, and the way to find out is by discernment.
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One cannot make this determination on their own. They MUST consult the diocesan office or their pastor. One must obtain permission from their pastor to even separate let alone determine nullity. A good priest friend here in our diocese, as well as most I know, when beginning the process of nullity forbid either of the couple from dating in any manner. The Church assumes the validity of a marriage until proven otherwise. All people who divorce and remarry contrary to the Church are following their own will and not God’s.
 
Sorry. Should have used quotes. That part was in my mind when saying they have no right to have an opinion on the matter if they have not even read or studied what holy mother Church teaches on the topic. I was in between my break at work and tried to write too fast
 
Quite right. But a young person supporting and practicing artificial birth control does not know love in the Corinthian sense. As Pope St. John Paul II pointed at in his “Love and Responsibility” that the opposite of the virtue of Love is “use.” To objectify another person and use the to another end. This is at the very heart of contraception. Use another to procure pleasure, comfort, etc. One who does that cannot know love really. I am one who was there but was challenged very sternly by a Catholic priest in the same manner. It caused me to go deeper and humble myself.
 
AUGUSTINE1102 said:
All people who divorce and remarry contrary to the Church are following their own will and not God’s.
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They are following their own will, but how do you know it is not God’s? Answering that question is the role of conscience.

In any event, you offer the same advice as AL, talk to a priest if you want to address issues of marriage, nullity, etc. The situations I cited presume that the conversation has already begun, and determined that either an annulment is not possible, or has been denied. The dynamic in those cases changes radically, such that if you believe God is calling you to marry your beloved, you should do it even if it is contrary to Church teaching. You must obey your conscience, even if it is wrong.

Of course, there will be situations where conscience is wrong, and it is not God’s will. Discernment will help discover those instances. Discernment may also discover that conscience was not wrong. It has to be at least open to the possibility.
 
Then the nullity process should be changed that if a person ‘discerns’ that they are free to marry they will receive a decree of nullity.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
It’s interesting to note that the line which was drawn by both Pope John Paul II and Pope Francis is that when reception of Reconciliation and Communion is opened to couples living in “irregular situations,” it is to be done discreetly so as not to cause scandal to the rest of the faithful.
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I think it’s already caused a scandal simply by allowing it.

Divorced Catholics who remarry without a decree of nullity knew the consequences and should have to live with them. Let them seek a decree of nullity and remarry in the Church.
 
Again, the document itself does not necessarily allow what many think it allows. And those of us claiming “scandal” are, in fact, a very small minority… Which makes me question whether the claim of “scandal” is even a legitimate claim at this point.

As to the second comment, not all divorced Catholics who remarry without a decree of nullity know the consequences, and many don’t even understand that what they’re doing objectively constitutes adultery. Many, in fact, think that the entire annulment process as nothing more than the Church’s version of divorce. And they don’t think this out of any sort of malice, but simply out of ignorance of why the Church teaches what she teaches, or why she behaves the way that she does.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
It’s interesting to note that the line which was drawn by both Pope John Paul II and Pope Francis is that when reception of Reconciliation and Communion is opened to couples living in “irregular situations,” it is to be done discreetly so as not to cause scandal to the rest of the faithful…In other words, it was determined that with the guidance of the pastor that 1) no mortal sin is present, 2) the couple is aware of the irregularity of their situation, and 3) the couple is striving to live more fully in accord with the teachings of the Church to the best of their abilities.
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Ok. Does that mean they must refrain from SEX, in order to receive, according to Pope Francis?
 
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Pope Francis doesn’t really talk about that in the document itself. He simply points out that it’s up to the couple to work together with a priest who knows their situation in order to determine their level of culpability for their current situation. He also points out that the couple must be actively working towards living out the fullness of the “gospel of the family,” and not flaunting the irregular situation as though it’s normal. Finally he points out that, while working to live out the fullness of the gospel of the family, a couple may fail from time to time. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is there for them whenever they should fail to meet the ideal.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
As to the second comment, not all divorced Catholics who remarry without a decree of nullity know the consequences, and many don’t even understand that what they’re doing objectively constitutes adultery. Many, in fact, think that the entire annulment process as nothing more than the Church’s version of divorce. And they don’t think this out of any sort of malice, but simply out of ignorance of why the Church teaches what she teaches, or why she behaves the way that she does.
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I think that is more than just ignorance. There is a point where we have a duty to seek and communicate with the Church, and not just assume we know. The Holy Spirit isn’t idle in these people’s lives, He is ignored!

What are these people doing? Are they praying and seeking God’s direction regarding their divorce? Are they taking marriage seriously? Are they trying to avoid temptation and evil?

Jesus says “Whoever divorces and marries another, commits adultery…” in three of the Gospels!
 
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The document is very clear that the questions you are asking are to be worked out between the couple and a priest who knows their situation. The document is also very clear that the process of discernment doesn’t necessarily terminate in an opening of the sacraments to the couple, but simply to a fuller participation in the life of the Church. This could mean encouraging the couple to participate in various ministries within the Church, or being more active in the parish life itself. But the document is clear that this does not mean reception of the sacraments in all cases.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
Pope Francis doesn’t really talk about that in the document itself. He simply points out that it’s up to the couple to work together with a priest who knows their situation in order to determine their level of culpability for their current situation. He also points out that the couple must be actively working towards living out the fullness of the “gospel of the family,” and not flaunting the irregular situation as though it’s normal. Finally he points out that, while working to live out the fullness of the gospel of the family, a couple may fail from time to time. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is there for them whenever they should fail to meet the ideal.
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Ok, that sounds like nothing new then. It’s just Pope Francis trying to encourage couples in irregular marriages to work on turning to God.

As to the bolded, well that sounds like most of our struggle! 😉
 
AMEN!!! As a married man I can say that there have been plenty of times where I’ve had recourse to the Sacrament of Reconciliation when I’ve failed to live up to the fullness of the gospel of the family. And I’ve also had to rely on the grace of the Eucharist to help me more fully live out that ideal!

That’s all the Pope Francis is trying to point out. Having read the document numerous times… and read it in light of Familiaris Consortio and the Theology of the Body, I honestly just think that Pope Francis is putting a stronger emphasis on the “appeal to the heart” that Pope St. John Paul II spoke of.
 
ConstantLearner said:
Divorced Catholics who remarry without a decree of nullity knew the consequences and should have to live with them. Let them seek a decree of nullity and remarry in the Church.
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Sometimes it is simply not possible. I don’t think Pope Francis is referring to “irregular situations” that occur in most fully developed nations. I am in the Philippines and I know that these “irregular situations” can definitely be found here. There is no divorce in the Philippines. For a marriage to be dissolved, the married couples must go through an annulment process, even if they weren’t married in the Church . Because of this, the government requires the Church to charge a fee for the filing of the annulment. Due to the extremely high poverty rate, an alarmingly high amount of abused women are forced to legally remain in their marriage because they cannot afford the fee. If they run away from their spouse, they often change their name to help them hide. Some seek marriage again as a means of protection on the chance that they would be found. They are trying to escape from a hell on earth and if the Church finds out then they would be cut off from some of their primary sources of strength: the sacraments.

In western society, our knee jerk reaction is to assume Pope Francis is talking about things we have witnessed in our sphere of experience. We must open our minds to the possibility that there are things beyond what we immediately perceive.
 
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Would you agree that many Catholics believe that Pope Francis is allowing some situations to continue sexual relations and receive Eucharist?

Why is Pope Francis trying to be so silent on the point? Isn’t this what caused such a stir with even Cardinals? Why would Francis not clarify that he still supports the Tradition that these couples must resolve to live in continence?
 
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