An Accursed Death?

[Dialogues]

Hi,

No. Lazarus was dead, Dialogues.

If Jesus did not intervene, he was as good as dead. But in reality, his illness was not unto literal death, as Jesus explained. He was unconscious, perhaps comatose, but not literally dead.

That is why you cannot interpret the Bible without the Catholic Church.

Then you cannot satisfactorily explain why Jesus said he was asleep.

Or, sleep can be used as a metaphor for death.

Jesus clearly stated that his illness was NOT until death.

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

Hi,

One has to wonder why you take one point of the story of Jonah–that he was alive–and apply it literally to Jesus, saying, “Therefore, Jesus must have been alive, too!”

The miracle of Jonah was that he remained alive when he ought to have being killed. That was the sign of Jonah, and that’s what applied to Jesus.

But you don’t take any other of the points of the story of Jonah–that he was in the belly of a whale–and apply it literally to Jesus saying, “Therefore, Jesus must have been literally buried in the belly of a whale, too!” Why is that, Dialogues? If you are going to take one part of the story of Jonah and make it a 1 to 1 correspondence with Christ, why ignore the rest of the story?

Jesus himself said that the miracle in his case would happen in the bowel of the earth instead of the belly of the fish.

Why not declare that Jesus was really in Nineveh, since Jonah was really in Nineveh?

You could even argue that Jesus would have to be Jonah himself. But what matters is what the miracle was in the case of Jonah, for this would be repeated in the case of Jesus. And the miracle was his survival when he was expected to have died. And that’s precisely what happened in the case of Jesus; he survived when he was expected and assumed to have died.

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

Hi,

That you have given an example of someone who was pronounced dead incorrectly is inutile, in that I could simply cite examples of thousands of folks who, once they are dead, were declared so correctly.

Were they also seen to be alive afterwards? Jesus was.

Let me put it this way, if Timothy McVeigh was seen alive by people after he was supposed to have been sentenced to death and electrocuted * and pronounced dead, would anyone say he actually died, and was resurrected? No, despite the unlikelihood of him escaping death, it would still be said that he survived the electrocution.

The reason you are arguing against the logical reasoning I am presenting is that you think Jesus could have and was resurrected, whereas you wouldn’t believe so in the case of Timothy McVeigh.

Otherwise, you would probably have admitted by now that my reasoning is very sound. So why not just say that you take the NT literally on this matter, as per the views of the Catholic Church, and you will not accept any other interpretation of his being said to have risen, however logical?

Peace.*

 

[po18guy]

True repentance is what is required for atonement of sins. Sins cause separation between God and mankind, leading to a spiritual death, and repentance means to turn away from sinfulness and to return to God in love.

Exactly right. Yet, heaven was closed until Christ’s salvific and atoning death opened those gates. We can repent all day and night (and we should), but if the gates of heaven are closed, what will it avail us? The difference between us is that it appears that salvation in Islam is in the hands of the believer, whereas in Catholicism, it is solely by God’s grace - yet we must cooperate with that grace.

That is why sacrifices without sincere intent become empty rituals, and are not accepted by God, who looks at the heart.

For Christians, this is relegated to the Old Testament by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. This is very difficult for you to understand, I know. Despite what you have been taught, history and Tradition tells us that Christ did, in fact, die on the cross for our sins. He has become the sacrifice for us - yet that sacrifice is made void for individuals if their hearts are hardened.

The law of sacrifice is that the lower is sacrificed for the higher, never the other way round. Reflect on this, and you will realise the implications of it. Why would Jesus, being higher, be sacrificed for the sake of sinners, who are much lower? Is Jesus lower than sinners in the eyes of God?

As we have tried to explain, Jesus lowered Himself from heaven, as poverty was the only thing He lacked. He took flesh from Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit for the sake of our redemption. All animal sacrifice has passed away. There is no better sacrifice, and to sacrifice an animal for a Christian is to deny Christ.

You make it sound like physical separation, whereas I was talking of spiritual separation from God. Do you believe heaven is a physical place, like earth is? Do you believe God is physical?

Heaven certainly is physical. Jesus is there in His human body, along with Mary. Jesus’ separation was in a sense physical, since He left heaven in spirit to take flesh, yet He can never be completely separated from His Father, either in spirit or physically. The Father is pure Spirit and not physical.

The Jews were not allowed to implement their capital punishments when it was the Romans who had authority in the land. The Jews had to take their cases of capital punishments to the Roman authorities.

Yes. This fulfilled all prophecy, both of the prophets as well as of Jesus Himself.

Pilate was surprised at the erroneous report that Jesus was dead because he knew quite well that crucifixion took days, not a few hours. It took an average of 3 days, sometimes even lasting up to a week. Crucifixion was a lingering type of death.

You say so. The Christian world believes completely differently. Your faith requires that each and every thing happen exactly as you say it did - exactly as you have been taught. Not so in Christianity. To think that Jesus was drugged or poisoned or was hidden and did not die violates reason, violates history, violates Tradition handed on to us.

 

[po18guy]

Why would that hasten his death? There is no logical reason for it. People do not die on the cross because of sins. An innocent person falsely accused would also take about the same amount of time to die as would a mass murderer, all other things being the same.

Again, you say so, but I think that you are using man’s reasoning, not God’s. You have been taught something that is diametrically opposed to Christianity, and believe only things which exactly support it, believing all else to be false. You must believe this way, or else your beliefs may come apart.

Jesus spoke in parables. Why insist on taking it literally?

Two reasons: first, because His parables taught absolute truth in the principle they taught. Secondly, because He spoke plainly to the Apostles and did not use parables with them. He chose them for the purpose of sending them forth to teach. They had to have knowledge that was superior to that of the crowds. How else could they teach?

Many things were kept hidden from the Jews. For example:

• [John 19:38] After this Joseph of Arimathe′a, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews*, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him leave. So he came and took away his body. 39 Nicode′mus also, who had at first come to him by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds’ weight.

Why did Nicodemus come to Pilate by night, in secret?! If not to discuss a plan to save Jesus, what else?

Fear of the Jewish authorities, as the scripture says. Islam must believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, and that there was a conspiracy to hide a living Jesus. Yet, there is no evidence at all that this happened. I believe that a spirit spoke to Muhammad. But, where did that spirit come from? Without testing that spirit, how can we know? We both know that the devil is a liar.

The view I know if is that the gospels were not even accurate when first written, as they are not divine revelation, nor do they claim to be so themselves. Rather, it is made clear that these are the writings of some human authors. And humans make errors of judgement.

The Quran did not fall from heaven written on stone by God. There are no such stones, and no one in Islam claims that there ever were any stones from God. Correct? A man heard the words and wrote them down. Those words have been copied over and over for more than 1,400 years. There is controversy in Islam over alleged errors in the Quran. I can set different Qurans before you. You choose one, while brother Muslim chooses another. Which of you is correct?

The Church has tested and declared that the Hebrew and Christian scriptures (the 73 books of scripture) were inspired by God, even though written and copied by the hand of man. The truth that they teach is without error, as God is greater than spelling or language.

Orientalists have admitted it. The Qur’an itself claims to be the literal word of God and guarantees that it will be preserved. The Bible makes no such claims, as it was not meant for all times or for all peoples.

Their are different versions of the Quran. Which is true? There is no Islamic authority to test which version is correct. Wars and deaths have occurred over these differences. The same with Christianity, but Islam also suffers this.

Unlike Jews and Christians, Muslims don’t believe Jesus was accursed by God. He did not die on the cross. However one may interpret Deut 21:23, it applies to someone who is hung dead, not to someone who is brought down alive, like Jesus was. Muslims believe Jesus was blessed by God, not accursed by God.

This we both know. But, as we have said, Jesus is God in the flesh, but in the form of the Son, which Muslims do not believe. We believe that Jesus, out of love, accepted the curse of sin for both you and I, that we may meet in heaven. Christians also have the word of John, that we are to test the spirits to see if they are of God, or of the devil. Maryam (Mary) tested the spirit by asking questions (Luke 1). Quran teaches that only Maryam and Jesus were not touched by the devil at their birth. This, Christians can easily accept. However, I know of absolutely no evidence that Muhammad, in extreme fear of the spirit, did any such thing to test the spirit as Maryam did. Muhammad feared and obeyed - which is very good IF the spirit is from God. Quran teaches that Muhammad must have been touched by the devil at his birth - since only Maryam and Jesus were not touched by the devil. How can a prophet touched by the devil be superior to one not touched by the devil?

 

[Dialogues]

Hi,

Exactly right. Yet, heaven was closed until Christ’s salvific and atoning death opened those gates.

Yet heaven was open for all the prophets whom God communicated with, and with their true followers. So when exactly did those gates get closed, and why?

The difference between us is that it appears that salvation in Islam is in the hands of the believer, whereas in Catholicism, it is solely by God’s grace - yet we must cooperate with that grace.

The Qur’an teaches that we should vie with one another in seeking forgiveness from our Lord, and for a paradise which is prepared for those who believe in God and His Messenger, and that is the Grace of God [57:21].

… history and Tradition tells us that Christ did, in fact, die on the cross for our sins.

According to the Bible, Jesus did not declare himself to the Jews and Romans, so ‘history’ does not record that he was seen alive after the attempted crucifixion. So ‘history’ cannot be blamed for not having that on record, otherwise the obvious conclusion would be that he survived the cross. And history has nothing to say about dying for sins. An attempt was made to crucify Jesus because of the sinfulness of those who opposed him, i.e. they were sinful people.

As we have tried to explain, Jesus lowered Himself from heaven,

Do you say he was lower than sinners?

Heaven certainly is physical.

My understanding of the Islamic concept of heaven is that it is spiritual. Any illustrations of it by reference to material things is only symbolic. People won’t be there with their material bodies.

Jesus is there in His human body, along with Mary.

In which case they are eating and drinking in your heaven, as the material body needs food and drink to survive. Whereas the Qur’an says that both Mary and Jesus USED to eat food [5:75], i.e. they have ceased eating food, as both are now dead.

The Father is pure Spirit and not physical.

God Almighty is neither physical not spiritual. Angels are spirits, but God is not an angel. There is nothing that is the same as God.

Peace

 

[Dialogues]

Peace.

Again, you say so, but I think that you are using man’s reasoning, not God’s.

Can you show me a verse in scripture which says that sins hasten death on the cross?

… You must believe this way, or else your beliefs may come apart.

You point a finger at me, seemingly forgetting that three of your own fingers are pointing at you at the same time.

Two reasons: first, because His parables taught absolute truth in the principle they taught. Secondly, because He spoke plainly to the Apostles and did not use parables with them. He chose them for the purpose of sending them forth to teach. They had to have knowledge that was superior to that of the crowds. How else could they teach?

Metaphors are used in scripture. For instance, John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy of the return of Elijah before the Christ. Was it a lie to refer to it as ‘a second coming’?

Fear of the Jewish authorities, as the scripture says.

Sure, Nicodemus may have met Pilate by night because of fear of the Jews on the part of both of them. But why did they arrange to meet in the first place? That is what I was pointing out.

Islam must believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, and that there was a conspiracy to hide a living Jesus. Yet, there is no evidence at all that this happened.

I have presented ample evidence to support it my other posts in this thread.

I believe that a spirit spoke to Muhammad. But, where did that spirit come from? Without testing that spirit, how can we know?

The Qur’an is available to study. It teaches the worship of the One God, Creator of the heavens and earth, and curses the devil in numerous verses.

The Quran did not fall from heaven written on stone by God. There are no such stones, and no one in Islam claims that there ever were any stones from God. Correct? A man heard the words and wrote them down.

It was divine revelation, which was granted to prophets and others before.

Those words have been copied over and over for more than 1,400 years. There is controversy in Islam over alleged errors in the Quran. I can set different Qurans before you. You choose one, while brother Muslim chooses another. Which of you is correct?

There is only One Qur’an. You are confusing the issue with what are termed ‘variant readings’, which have the status of being commentaries of the Qur’anic verses. These are not variant Qur’ans.

Their are different versions of the Quran. Which is true? There is no Islamic authority to test which version is correct. Wars and deaths have occurred over these differences. The same with Christianity, but Islam also suffers this.

No wars and deaths have occurred over such an issue in Islam. There is only one Qur’an.

Quran teaches that only Maryam and Jesus were not touched by the devil at their birth.

It is not in the Qur’an, but there is a doubtful hadith which is not ‘mutawatir’, but ‘khabar wahid’, and which has been refuted by Muslim commentators such as al-Zamakhshari in his book al-Kashshaf, and also Fakhr al-Din al-Razi in his Tafsir.

This, Christians can easily accept.

It may well be a hadith forged by someone influenced by Christianity.

Quran teaches that Muhammad must have been touched by the devil at his birth - since only Maryam and Jesus were not touched by the devil.

There is no such teaching in the Qur’an, my holy scripture.

How can a prophet touched by the devil be superior to one not touched by the devil?

According to the Bible, which is your scripture, Jesus was tempted by the devil for 40 whole days. The Holy Prophet Muhammad s.a. is referred to as ummi in the Qur’an [7:157], meaning immaculate.

Peace.

 

[po18guy]

Hi, Yet heaven was open for all the prophets whom God communicated with, and with their true followers. So when exactly did those gates get closed, and why? The Qur’an teaches that we should vie with one another in seeking forgiveness from our Lord, and for a paradise which is prepared for those who believe in God and His Messenger, and that is the Grace of God [57:21]. According to the Bible, Jesus did not declare himself to the Jews and Romans, so ‘history’ does not record that he was seen alive after the attempted crucifixion. So ‘history’ cannot be blamed for not having that on record, otherwise the obvious conclusion would be that he survived the cross. And history has nothing to say about dying for sins. An attempt was made to crucify Jesus because of the sinfulness of those who opposed him, i.e. they were sinful people. Do you say he was lower than sinners? My understanding of the Islamic concept of heaven is that it is spiritual. Any illustrations of it by reference to material things is only symbolic. People won’t be there with their material bodies. In which case they are eating and drinking in your heaven, as the material body needs food and drink to survive. Whereas the Qur’an says that both Mary and Jesus USED to eat food [5:75], i.e. they have ceased eating food, as both are now dead. God Almighty is neither physical not spiritual. Angels are spirits, but God is not an angel. There is nothing that is the same as God. Peace

It has been nice to listen to your monologue regarding Islam, but you are very clearly not in a dialog.

 

[Dialogues]

Hi,

It has been nice to listen to your monologue regarding Islam, but you are very clearly not in a dialog.

If you don’t wish to respond to my questions, that’s fine.

You wrongly assert it is a monologue about Islam, whereas I was addressing issues you had yourself raised.

You seem to have thought Islam was relevant to the discussion, and so you yourself brought it up. Now you seem to wish you hadn’t.

If you wish the dialogue to be ‘Islam-free’, then a suggestion to you to avoid bringing Islam into the discussion would not be out of place.

If you look at my posts, you will note that I have avoided mentioning Islam myself, unless it was somehow brought up by someone else, iirc.

The issue in this thread is the Christian acceptance of the Jewish allegation that Jesus was accursed by God due to his alleged death on the cross.

Peace.