An Agnostic Manifesto

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from Slate, of all places:
An Agnostic Manifesto
Faith-based atheism? Yes, alas. Atheists display a credulous and childlike faith, worship a certainty as yet unsupported by evidence—the certainty that they can or will be able to explain how and why the universe came into existence. (And some of them can behave as intolerantly to heretics who deviate from their unproven orthodoxy as the most unbending religious Inquisitor.)
Faced with the fundamental question: “Why is there something rather than nothing?” atheists have faith that science will tell us eventually. Most seem never to consider that it may well be a philosophic, logical impossibility for something to create itself from nothing. But the question presents a fundamental mystery that has bedeviled (so to speak) philosophers and theologians from Aristotle to Aquinas. Recently scientists have tried to answer it with theories of “multiverses” and “vacuums filled with quantum potentialities,” none of which strikes me as persuasive. (For a review of the centrality, and insolubility so far, of the something-from-nothing question, I recommend this podcast interview with Jim Holt, who is writing a book on the subject.)
Having recently spent two weeks in Cambridge (the one in the United Kingdom) on a Templeton-Cambridge Fellowship, being lectured to by believers and nonbelievers, I found myself feeling more than anything unconvinced by certainties on either side. And feeling the need for solidarity and identity with other doubters. Thus my call for a revivified agnosticism. Our T-shirt will read: *I just don’t know. *(I should probably say here that I still consider myself Jewish in everything but the believing in God part, which, I’ll admit, others may take exception to.)
Well, an honest agnostic is certainly better than an obnoxious atheist, or even the “spiritual but not religious” types".
But once you reject, or at least recognise the absurdity of something arising from nothing, why not take the next step? “I don’t know” seems a good starting point but to stay proudly stuck there, not so much.
 
Well, an honest agnostic is certainly better than an obnoxious atheist, or even the “spiritual but not religious” types".
But once you reject, or at least recognise the absurdity of something arising from nothing, why not take the next step? “I don’t know” seems a good starting point but to stay proudly stuck there, not so much.
The author of the article evidently misunderstands atheism, since he claims it offers certainty. On the contrary, atheism merely affirms the nonexistence of God, not certainty regarding the nonexistence of God.

Almost every critique I’ve encountered of atheism written by an agnostic makes this mistake, thinking that atheism is in some part about certainty. It is not.
 
from Slate, of all places:

Well, an honest agnostic is certainly better than an obnoxious atheist, or even the “spiritual but not religious” types".
But once you reject, or at least recognise the absurdity of something arising from nothing, why not take the next step? “I don’t know” seems a good starting point but to stay proudly stuck there, not so much.
Is it really absurd that something could arise from nothing? I have no idea. What seems absurd to me is to assume from the start that we are even asking good questions or to assume that there is something deep, necessary, and fundamental about these “philosophical” questions. Why assume that the universe is a puzzle to be solved like a riddle that has some verbal answer? Do you really think that you can get better in touch with reality by believing the right sentences? Why?
 
The author of the article evidently misunderstands atheism, since he claims it offers certainty. On the contrary, atheism merely affirms the nonexistence of God, not certainty regarding the nonexistence of God.

Almost every critique I’ve encountered of atheism written by an agnostic makes this mistake, thinking that atheism is in some part about certainty. It is not.
There are two types of atheist - those who **believe **God does not exist and those who claim to **know **God does not exist. The latter claim that the concept of God is absurd…
 
The author of the article evidently misunderstands atheism, since he claims it offers certainty. On the contrary, atheism merely affirms the nonexistence of God, not certainty regarding the nonexistence of God.

Almost every critique I’ve encountered of atheism written by an agnostic makes this mistake, thinking that atheism is in some part about certainty. It is not.
Please excuse me for not understanding, but isn’t that really just agnosticism that you’re describing? If you don’t have certainty regarding the non-existence of God, then how is your position different from agnosticism?
 
Please excuse me for not understanding, but isn’t that really just agnosticism that you’re describing? If you don’t have certainty regarding the non-existence of God, then how is your position different from agnosticism?
I think what she’s uiltimately admitting to (and hats off to her if she is :tiphat:) is that atheism is a belief, although she may on the other hand simply be arguing according to a different definition of atheism 🤷

Up to you, Leela to elaborate…👍
 
I think what she’s uiltimately admitting to (and hats off to her if she is :tiphat:) is that atheism is a belief, although she may on the other hand simply be arguing according to a different definition of atheism 🤷

Up to you, Leela to elaborate…👍
I guess the crucial word in that sentence is “Affirm”. In that case affirming a belief in no God would make atheism a belief system just like we affirm God’s existence. I think I understand better now. Words are tricky things sometimes.
 
I think what she’s uiltimately admitting to (and hats off to her if she is :tiphat:) is that atheism is a belief, although she may on the other hand simply be arguing according to a different definition of atheism 🤷

Up to you, Leela to elaborate…👍
Personally, I think the whole “atheism is not a belief but a lack of belief” argument is a wrong-headed attempt to shift the burden of proof on the matter. I think doubts need to be justified as well as beliefs do and that the burden of proof is always shared in a conversation where both sides would like to convince the other. The issue of “proof” in the utter annihilation sense of the term usually arises in such conversations, but the notion of an argument so powerful that to deny it would be to induce cardiac arrest is not at all a mature view of inquiry. (This seems to be the view of the self-proclaimed agnostic in the article.) Either one believes in a particular conception of God or one does not. The answer is played out in how one lives one’s life for anyone who has given the question serious thought. The degree of certainty in belief is a separate question. The term “agnostic” is often used as a term to talk about uncertainty (whereas literally the word was coined to mean the impossibility of knowledge). If one has to be 100% in believing or disbelieving in God, then I suppose that almost everyone is some sort of agnostic so the term is pretty useless.
 
from Slate, of all places:

Well, an honest agnostic is certainly better than an obnoxious atheist, or even the “spiritual but not religious” types".
But once you reject, or at least recognise the absurdity of something arising from nothing, why not take the next step? “I don’t know” seems a good starting point but to stay proudly stuck there, not so much.
I just read the Slate article, it was pretty good. It looks like the “New Atheists” are now turning off agnostics as well. It’s the arrogance and smugness of Dawkins, Hitchens and their New Atheist disciples that’s really growing tiring with everyone. If you believe there is no God, fine, nothing wrong with that socially. But if you don’t believe in God and feel it’s your duty to go around calling everyone who does believe “delusional” and “ignorant”, then you are no different from any other intolerant fundamentalist. That’s what they’ve become Atheist Fundamentalists.
 
There are two types of atheist - those who **believe **God does not exist and those who claim to **know **God does not exist.
Actually, there is a third type of atheist, called the weak atheist, or the negative atheist, who merely lacks belief in God. This type is abundant online, since it is apparently fashionable in some circles to claim minimal positions which are accompanied by no burden of defense. If you have encountered this type of atheist—which I suspect you have—then I sympathize with whatever frustration you probably felt in talking to him.
The latter claim that the concept of God is absurd…
That depends on one’s account of knowledge. Some prefer to define knowledge loosely enough that working assumptions qualify as knowledge if the alternatives are sufficiently unremarkable.
 
Please excuse me for not understanding, but isn’t that really just agnosticism that you’re describing? If you don’t have certainty regarding the non-existence of God, then how is your position different from agnosticism?
Atheism is, generally speaking, the position that God does not exist. One need not be certain of a position in order to adopt it. For example, one could assume, as a matter of practicality, that God does not exist. That’s more or less my approach, by the way. Or one could take a probabilistic position, which is, for example, what Dawkins does, and say that it is likely God does not exist. In neither case is certainty claimed (in fact, in both cases, certainty is explicitly rejected), but in both cases we have people adopting the position of atheism in one manner or another.
 
Actually, there is a third type of atheist, called the weak atheist, or the negative atheist, who merely lacks belief in God. This type is abundant online, since it is apparently fashionable in some circles to claim minimal positions which are accompanied by no burden of defense. If you have encountered this type of atheist—which I suspect you have—then I sympathize with whatever frustration you probably felt in talking to him.
You are right! They fail to realise it is irrational not to give a reason for denying - or ignoring the possibility - that God exists.
That depends on one’s account of knowledge. Some prefer to define knowledge loosely enough that working assumptions qualify as knowledge if the alternatives are sufficiently unremarkable.
“loosely” is the significant word. 🙂
 
I think doubts need to be justified as well as beliefs do
They don’t. If you claim that a flying dog just taught you how to make gold out of lead, my doubts don’t need to be “justified” as well as your beliefs do. The rational response to any extraordinary claim is to doubt the claim until there is evidence to accept the claim.
Please excuse me for not understanding, but isn’t that really just agnosticism that you’re describing? If you don’t have certainty regarding the non-existence of God, then how is your position different from agnosticism?
Since I don’t think hatsoff actually answered the last part of your question, I’ll field this one.

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive: one deals with knowledge, and the other deals with belief. An agnostic is someone who claims not to know whether or not a god exists; an atheist is someone who claims not to believe that a god exists. One can be an agnostic atheist.

How a person defines “knowledge” and “belief” can make talking about this stuff extremely tricky, so much so that I think there’s very little benefit to using the term “agnostic” at all. In common parlance, the word agnostic is sometimes used to mean someone who’s “just not sure” about the god question. For me – and when I write, I am the absolute arbiter of what I mean by the terms I use – someone who is on the fence about believing in god qualifies as an atheist.

For me, being a theist is like being a Lakers fan – either you are one or you’re not, and if you’re not sure that you’re one, then you’re automatically in the “not” category.

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is simply “not believing in gods.” This can take the form of implicit atheism (that is, people who either have not thought about the question or cannot), but usually we’re talking about explicit atheists – people who have thought about the question and come to certain conclusions.

Just to make things more confusing, people have proposed the existence of two types of explicit atheists:

Weak atheists: those people who don’t accept the claim that gods exist because there’s no valid evidence.

Strong atheists: those people who accept the claim that no gods exist.

A strong atheist has a belief: he believes that there are no gods. A weak atheist simply does not believe that there are gods. This isn’t some nit-picky semantic distinction. My favorite example is the coin toss: if I toss a coin and conceal it in my palm so that no one can see it, someone might come along and say, “I believe the coin is heads.” Let’s call him a headsist (theist). Someone else could come along and say to that other fellow, “I don’t believe you.” This new fellow is an a-headsist (weak atheist), but he doesn’t necessarily believe that the coin is tails up (strong atheist). If someone else came along and actively believed that the coin is tails up, then that person would equally be an a-headsist.

All of these labels and terms are, in my estimation, needlessly confusing. The only thing that matters is “Do you believe in god/gods?” Any other answer than “yes” makes you an atheist. Atheism isn’t necessarily a belief, and it doesn’t rest on faith, and it’s certainly not a worldview. It’s a position on one single question.

Oh, and atheism is also not the belief that “something came from nothing.” Before the Big Bang, which is as far back as our knowledge goes right now, there was clearly “stuff” around that began to expand. Where that “stuff” came from is anybody’s guess. Maybe it always existed. Maybe it was produced by some natural process. I really don’t know, and I don’t see how it’s relevant to the discussion, as there’s no indication that some intelligent being put it there.
 
AntiTheist,

You’re using the extraordinary character of a claim as rational support for the strength of doubting it, thus justifying your doubt’s force. Think legally: “beyond reasonable doubt.” If the claim were instead, say, [Barack Obama is President of the USA.], then certainly you would demand anyone who skeptically wavers about it, or suspends belief, to justify his lack of acceptance. You would rightfully call the guy irrational for not believing. I think that’s Leela’s point: whenever a person makes any choice, whether it be to affirm, deny, or even just suspend belief, he is positively choosing a course of action, and so he presumably would require justification just to act at all. The mere presentation of a choice often unsettles a man and effectively leaves no possible “default” position of neutrality, i.e., forces him to actively choose a course, and would a rational man not still require rational support even in just his decision to refrain from acceptance?

Doubt is the active questioning of a claim’s truth, and it only typically entails wariness to accept that claim, i.e., to believe it. (Since “acceptance” just means affirmation as true, a person’s positive mental entertainment of any assertion as not-true – a.k.a. false – naturally tends to weaken his acceptance of it, though not necessarily. I would actually wager that those who have most strongly doubted God’s existence were saints with concurrent faith.)

‘Doubt’ according to the Online Etymology Dictionary:

early 13c., from O.Fr. douter, from L. dubitare “hesitate, waver in opinion” (related to dubius “uncertain”), originally “to have to choose between two things.” The sense of “fear” developed in O.Fr. and was passed on to English. The -b- was restored 14c. by scribes in imitation of L. Replaced O.E. tweogan (noun twynung), from tweon “two,” on notion of “of two minds” or the choice of two implied in Latin dubitare (cf. Ger. Zweifel “doubt,” from zwei “two”).

Any claim can and arguably should be doubted, at least minimally. To doubt an assertion x is just to consider its opposite’s truth, to entertain the possibility of not-x. The power of doubt, lying in its doxastic force and ability to move minds, will of course vary. For instance, I can doubt that I have hands, but I won’t then be disinclined to believe that I do, since I can clearly see that the proposition * is ridiculous, especially when weighed against * (namely due to the clear sight of the things typing in front of me). On the reverse extreme, I might doubt that I am the greatest basketball player in the world, which would instantly force me to reject such a claim. Every meaningful proposition will be either true or false; no middle ground exists between them. Whenever a new claim is proposed for belief, one wisely pits its warrants to truth against its opposing reasons for non-truth, and then he chooses to affirm or not. Everyone’s got a different threshold for acceptance, which is at the true heart of dispute between theism/agnosticism. When its doubt is extremely strong, the person will accept his self-proposed opposite claim, and that belief will logically cause him to outright reject the first proposition.

OK, so my point is: the justification of doubt itself is largely just practical; it serves as a sort of screening test for veracity and allows one to judge an appropriate level of confidence for a belief. However, the power* of doubt must be rationally based, since it lies in the justification and support for a positively opposite assertion. Doubting God’s existence should only have force if there exist positive reasons in favor of affirming God’s non-existence.

Take your example, [a flying dog just taught you how to make gold out of lead.], and it’s obvious that the rational justification for the opposite claim far outweighs the reasons in its support. Dogs can’t fly, for one. Thus as soon as one doubts it, the warranted power behind the doubt should force one to reject the claim, let alone simply to not affirm it.

Now take an “agnostic claim”: [My grandmother’s favorite color is pink.], for instance. I analyze its rational merit and find virtually nothing in its favor. Now I doubt it, but the doubt has no power, since I know of nothing in support of her favorite color not being pink. Therefore, nothing tips the balance in favor of belief, so I currently lack any truth-relevant motivation for affirming the claim (though one might still succeed at a pragmatic sort of argument, say, a “Grandmother’s Wager”). Assuming no pragmatic justification, belief in the proposition isn’t rational, meaning that a rational man would suspend belief regarding it, i.e., affirming neither it nor its opposite.

So you’re right that a belief ought to be justified rationally, whether strong doubt is warranted or not. However, for a person to rationally let his doubt of a claim have any force, that doubt must itself carry rational support and be thus justified. In the end, if the rational support in favor of opposing propositions is equal, or even only barely in favor of affirmation (not enough to satisfy a warranted threshold), no one is rationally justified in his belief.

Agnostics believe that the God-question is like the grandmother-question. Positive atheists, which you seem to be, would assure everyone that the question is more like the flying dog-question (or perhaps like asking, oh say, whether there exists a magical unicorn on the far side of the moon). The subject of an agnosticism debate would revolve around a proper threshold for belief in such a being as God; the subject of an atheism debate would be much more theoretical and fact-oriented.*
 
Is it really absurd that something could arise from nothing? I have no idea. What seems absurd to me is to assume from the start that we are even asking good questions or to assume that there is something deep, necessary, and fundamental about these “philosophical” questions. Why assume that the universe is a puzzle to be solved like a riddle that has some verbal answer? Do you really think that you can get better in touch with reality by believing the right sentences? Why?
Have you ever seen a picture of Rome and admired its beauty?
 
They don’t. If you claim that a flying dog just taught you how to make gold out of lead, my doubts don’t need to be “justified” as well as your beliefs do. The rational response to any extraordinary claim is to doubt the claim until there is evidence to accept the claim.

Since I don’t think hatsoff actually answered the last part of your question, I’ll field this one.

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive: one deals with knowledge, and the other deals with belief. An agnostic is someone who claims not to know whether or not a god exists; an atheist is someone who claims not to believe that a god exists. One can be an agnostic atheist.

How a person defines “knowledge” and “belief” can make talking about this stuff extremely tricky, so much so that I think there’s very little benefit to using the term “agnostic” at all. In common parlance, the word agnostic is sometimes used to mean someone who’s “just not sure” about the god question. For me – and when I write, I am the absolute arbiter of what I mean by the terms I use – someone who is on the fence about believing in god qualifies as an atheist.

For me, being a theist is like being a Lakers fan – either you are one or you’re not, and if you’re not sure that you’re one, then you’re automatically in the “not” category.

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is simply “not believing in gods.” This can take the form of implicit atheism (that is, people who either have not thought about the question or cannot), but usually we’re talking about explicit atheists – people who have thought about the question and come to certain conclusions.

Just to make things more confusing, people have proposed the existence of two types of explicit atheists:

Weak atheists: those people who don’t accept the claim that gods exist because there’s no valid evidence.

Strong atheists: those people who accept the claim that no gods exist.

A strong atheist has a belief: he believes that there are no gods. A weak atheist simply does not believe that there are gods. This isn’t some nit-picky semantic distinction. My favorite example is the coin toss: if I toss a coin and conceal it in my palm so that no one can see it, someone might come along and say, “I believe the coin is heads.” Let’s call him a headsist (theist). Someone else could come along and say to that other fellow, “I don’t believe you.” This new fellow is an a-headsist (weak atheist), but he doesn’t necessarily believe that the coin is tails up (strong atheist). If someone else came along and actively believed that the coin is tails up, then that person would equally be an a-headsist.

All of these labels and terms are, in my estimation, needlessly confusing. The only thing that matters is “Do you believe in god/gods?” Any other answer than “yes” makes you an atheist. Atheism isn’t necessarily a belief, and it doesn’t rest on faith, and it’s certainly not a worldview. It’s a position on one single question.

Oh, and atheism is also not the belief that “something came from nothing.” Before the Big Bang, which is as far back as our knowledge goes right now, there was clearly “stuff” around that began to expand. Where that “stuff” came from is anybody’s guess. Maybe it always existed. Maybe it was produced by some natural process. I really don’t know, and I don’t see how it’s relevant to the discussion, as there’s no indication that some intelligent being put it there.

Maybe it was produced by some natural process. I really don’t know, and I don’t see how it’s relevant to the discussion, as there’s no indication that some intelligent being put it there.
At the end of the day, you’re still fielding the recent ‘actually my vagueness makes me an atheist’ argument aimed at agnostics by evangelical atheists. But it seems to me, as ever, to be an attempt to make the ‘don’t know’ support the group that essentially proclaims ‘I think not!’

Semantics aside, there are quite clearly those who believe there is not a God, those who don’t know, and those who think there is.The obvious motivation for such diligent redefinition of the terms and conditions are blatantly political, regardless of technical justifications for them. :rolleyes:

There is evidence than an intelligent being put everything pretty much everything everywhere. Largely that the opposite is so absurdly unlikely it takes real faith (or a particularly pervasive indoctrinational culture) to think anything of such unlikelihood as *us * has any reasonable chance of popping up at all, at least as far as the laws of physics, when honestly and rationally considered, are concerned
 
There is evidence than an intelligent being put everything pretty much everything everywhere.
This coming from a guy who once admitted that he believes in ghosts? Not really surprising. While we’re at it, I have some land in Florida that I’d be interested in selling you…
Largely that the opposite is so absurdly unlikely it takes real faith (or a particularly pervasive indoctrinational culture) to think anything of such unlikelihood as *us * has any reasonable chance of popping up at all, at least as far as the laws of physics, when honestly and rationally considered, are concerned
This is an argument from incredulity and ignorance (and a bit of a strawman as well, as no one claims that complex creatures “popped” up – rather, they developed very slowly over long periods of time from gradual changes being selected by environmental pressures).

But really, atheism isn’t “the claim that all things ‘popped up’ on their own.” That’s a really bizarrre strawman of certain strains of philosophical naturalism, not atheism. Atheism is just not believing in god.
 
They don’t. If you claim that a flying dog just taught you how to make gold out of lead, my doubts don’t need to be “justified” as well as your beliefs do. The rational response to any extraordinary claim is to doubt the claim until there is evidence to accept the claim.
I think you would be able to provide lots of good reasons (justification) for why such a claim ought to be doubted. Your refrain “there is no evidence” is not very rational at all. It is not rational or irrational to refuse to address the evidence that others present to you. It is simply a refusal to have a conversation to try to reach consensus. It is one thing to say “this is why what you’ve offered as evidence doesn’t convince me and ought not convince you” and another to just keep saying “what evidence???” That’s just annoying because you are posing as though you are willing to converse and then not holding up your end of the conversation.
 
Your refrain “there is no evidence” is not very rational at all. It is not rational or irrational to refuse to address the evidence that others present to you. It is simply a refusal to have a conversation to try to reach consensus. It is one thing to say “this is why what you’ve offered as evidence doesn’t convince me and ought not convince you” and another to just keep saying “what evidence???” That’s just annoying because you are posing as though you are willing to converse and then not holding up your end of the conversation.
Goodness gracious! I would hope that it is understood that by “evidence,” I mean “convincing evidence.”

I’m sure a leprechaun-believer has all kinds of “evidence” for his beliefs, from personal experience to testimony of others to the existence of rainbows. But none of that is actually evidence for the claim; it’s all irrelevant.

The “evidence” for gods is of this nature. I’ll happily explain why a piece of so-called evidence isn’t actually evidence, but you have to ask me specifically about each piece. Until then – and after then – I will continue to correctly state that there’s no evidence for gods of any kind.
 
Goodness gracious! I would hope that it is understood that by “evidence,” I mean “convincing evidence.”

I’m sure a leprechaun-believer has all kinds of “evidence” for his beliefs, from personal experience to testimony of others to the existence of rainbows. But none of that is actually evidence for the claim; it’s all irrelevant.

The “evidence” for gods is of this nature. I’ll happily explain why a piece of so-called evidence isn’t actually evidence, but you have to ask me specifically about each piece. Until then – and after then – I will continue to correctly state that there’s no evidence for gods of any kind.
Yes it is: It’s just not physical evidence, or backed up by the same in such a fashion in such a way that we could understand it according to the scientific method. What I find is the problem with scientismic types such as yourself is that you insist on the exclusivist dogma that we should limit ourselves to this particular form of empirical method, and ignore all other aspects of experience, or forms of empiricism, or reinterpret them exclusively according to the limitations of the same. I’m sorry, it fails repeatedly as a method, not least by it’s own standards! It’s the most limiting form of tunnel vision I can imagine, not least because it is no longer publically acceptable to even consider that it may be such! I say again, as I’ve said before: Pure superstition
 
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