An ancient cafeteria Catholic

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StLudmilla

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What I need to know is what should I say if this ever comes up again.

OK here’s what happened. There is a lady in my Church who must be in her 80’s. She told me that she no longer believes in purgatory or hell because of the Divine Mercy. I was blown away and did not say a word in response(omission?) being that she is an “elder” in our parish. She is very involved in our parish and is a second(?) order Carmelite. She said that she remembers when the church taught that “bastards” weren’t allowed to join men/women religious. I guess she was using that as justification for taking this stance against the dogmatic teaching of the Church. Of course I understand that purgatory IS given to us as a part of the Divine Mercy. So what do I do if she brings it up again or should I bring it up?

She likes to put prayer cards and pictures for folks to take home on a table in the entry of the our church. I was thinking about buying some apologetic tracts to place on that table concerning purgatory / hell / divine mercy. Any suggestions on tracts would be appreciated.
 
StLudmilla said:
So what do I do if she brings it up again or should I bring it up?
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You can point out that the Church’s magisterium (the teaching body) teaches it:*The Second Vatican Council’s “Dogmatic Constitution on the Church” asserted, “This sacred council accepts loyally the venerable faith of our ancestors in the living communion which exists between us and our brothers who are yet being purified after their death; and it proposes again the decrees of the Second Council of Nicea, of the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent” (No. 51). Moreover, the clearly affirms the Church’s belief in Purgatory and the purification of the soul after death (cf. No. 1030-32). (see full article here)*If she doesn’t recognize the teaching body of the Church, the problem transcends the dogma of purgatory.
 
Its probably best to aks permission from the pastor before placing printed material for others to take. In most Churches the pastor is going to pick up pamphlets, tracts and other such things which people have placed about and which he hasn’t approved and throw them out anyway.

I’m wondering why the adjective ancient was chosen to describe the woman’s age. Would not elderly have been a better way to describe the woman?

-Tim-
 
My advice: listen with respect, nod, and change the subject.

Do you really want to be teaching your “grandmother” how to suck eggs?
 
TimothyH said:
Its probably best to aks permission from the pastor before placing printed material for others to take. In most Churches the pastor is going to pick up pamphlets, tracts and other such things which people have placed about and which he hasn’t approved and throw them out anyway.

I’m wondering why the adjective ancient was chosen to describe the woman’s age. Would not elderly have been a better way to describe the woman?

-Tim-
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I thought it was weird too. I expected the thread to be about someone who claimed that some Saint didn’t believe birth control was a sin or something like that.
 
Kotton said:
My advice: listen with respect, then correct.
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This. Listen to what she has to say and then tell her that actually the church teaches differently. Then you explain it and then give her a source to consult if you can. Just so it doesn’t look like your opinion against hers but the church against her interpretation.

People need to be told they are wrong when they are. It certainly helped me seek the truth when I was in error.
 
triumphguy said:
My advice: listen with respect, nod, and change the subject.

Do you really want to be teaching your “grandmother” how to suck eggs?
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The spiritual works of mercy are:
  • To instruct the **ignorant; **(note there is no age limit to this) 😉
  • To counsel the doubtful
  • To admonish sinners
  • To bear wrongs patiently;
  • To forgive offences willingly;
  • To comfort the afflicted;
  • To pray for the living and the dead.
 
I would think the best would be to smile gently at your aged parishioner and move on.

We picked up a similar problem in that the ladies (of more or less the same age group as your parishioner) at an old age home that is attached to our congregation have convinced themselves that they cannot get to heaven, since heaven is already full (based on the “144000-readings” in Revelation Chapter 7).

There does not seem to be much one can do to convince people of this age group that they could possibly be wrong.

Jan
 
I would ask, if this ever comes up again, why are we praying for mercy if Purgatory and hell do not exist?
 
Really, truly, and honestly, the woman has misunderstood the devotion. But, she’s elderly and I would not take it upon yourself to say anything. If you’re younger, she might perceive it as if you’re trying to tell her what to do. Instead, let your priest know and see if he’ll talk to her about it?
 
I suggest the following from Grotto Press. I use 'em all the time.
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CIL Tract: Purgatory, Joe Hardhat #2 (set of 25)
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Code: 
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$4.50
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Our hero finds an opportune moment at a health club to pass along the biblical foundations of the doctrine of purgatory.
 
To play the odd role (for me) of contrarian when it comes to such matters, my developed respect for the elderly and religious kicked in as I read this thread.

It is possible that given her advanced age and religious experience, she could be in a place on her spiritual journey where she sees purgatory and Divine Mercy as one and the same.

Our quest and need for Divine Mercy does not end with death. Is that not consistent even with a traditionally Latin Catholic understanding of purgatory?

Just a thought …
 
Don’t go up telling her directly that she is wrong. Maybe ask her questions about it. I would say that hell exists BECAUSE of divine mercy. God lets those who would choose to be apart from him exist apart from him. Maybe ask her what happens to people who really desire to be apart from God. Does God force himself on them?

My point is that a well phrased question is neither offensive, nor disrespectful.
 
sllhouette said:
Don’t go up telling her directly that she is wrong. Maybe ask her questions about it. I would say that hell exists BECAUSE of divine mercy. God lets those who would choose to be apart from him exist apart from him. Maybe ask her what happens to people who really desire to be apart from God. Does God force himself on them?

My point is that a well phrased question is neither offensive, nor disrespectful.
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You can’t tell her that hell exists because of God’s mercy. Hell is eternal punishment – not only the absence of God, hope, and love, but torment we can’t imagine. Instead, tell her to speak of God’s mercy, but never to forget that God is just. Mercy is given unlimitedly to those who ask for it. It is not forced on those who do not desire it.
 
Ancient peoples are all dead. Therefore we can neither counsel or instruct them. On the other hand, older Catholics who have been blessed with a long life are still capable of learning new things about our beautiful Catholic faith. I am already “older” but still learning more each day. There is a huge difference between telling someone who is much older “you’re wrong” and offering questions and giving information that may help them learn something new. Pray first for the guidance of the Holy Spirit and proceed in a spirit of Christ’s love. We are only responsible for carrying the message of Christ, not responsible for how it is received or interpreted. Be humble, be kind and do His work. Age is no determinant when it comes to learning more deeply the great message of hope - the Catholic faith.
 
StLudmilla said:
What I need to know is what should I say if this ever comes up again.

OK here’s what happened. There is a lady in my Church who must be in her 80’s. She told me that she no longer believes in purgatory or hell because of the Divine Mercy. I was blown away and did not say a word in response(omission?) being that she is an “elder” in our parish. She is very involved in our parish and is a second(?) order Carmelite. She said that she remembers when the church taught that “bastards” weren’t allowed to join men/women religious. I guess she was using that as justification for taking this stance against the dogmatic teaching of the Church. Of course I understand that purgatory IS given to us as a part of the Divine Mercy. So what do I do if she brings it up again or should I bring it up?

She likes to put prayer cards and pictures for folks to take home on a table in the entry of the our church. I was thinking about buying some apologetic tracts to place on that table concerning purgatory / hell / divine mercy. Any suggestions on tracts would be appreciated.
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😦 It’s such a shame. We can devote our whole lives to the Truth, but the Enemy will never stop trying to convince us of other truths. It sounds like, as devout as she is or has been, that she has been swayed away from Christ’s teaching. I think that leaving some apologetics concerning purgatory, hell, and Divine Mercy may be the best approach, but it may be too passive. Maybe ask her about it sometime, framed with wanting to know her thoughts about it. That could open the door for discussion. But i certainly do suggest you arm yourself with lots of good, solid information and prepared counter arguments.
 
I doubt she’s going to go to hell because of her beliefs in purgatory or hell.
 
Allegra said:
I thought it was weird too. I expected the thread to be about someone who claimed that some Saint didn’t believe birth control was a sin or something like that.
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Yea, I thought it was going to be about some early Church Father who did not believe in something that is taught as dogma today, or something like that. 🤷

My kids think I’m pretty ancient. :rolleyes:

-Tim-
 
triumphguy said:
I doubt she’s going to go to hell because of her beliefs in purgatory or hell.
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It’s hardly a call we can make. 🙂 My only point is the Enemy is always trying to lure us into believing there is no hell or that he isn’t real.
 
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