An Anglican Question of Communion

[gurneyhalleck1]

In my years in the Episcopal Church, seven to be exact, I never saw anything remotely similar to that…but like GKC says, Anglicanism is “elastic” and eclectic. The elastic stretches about as far as Martin Lawrence’s waistline in Big Mama’s House!

I’ve never attended but an Episcopal church near me has one service where the communicants pass the bread and wine to each other. But is it the norm for Episcopalians to kneel at the altar rail?

 

[chris_molter]

You should note that whatever the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, because the Anglican Communion is in communion with the Old Catholic Church, valid orders by Roman Catholic Standards exist in many Bishops of the Anglican Communion.

Possibly. Probably, even. Form and matter would certainly be valid (now, anyways), I think you guys would just have to prove intent (ie: intending to ordain to a sacrificial Priesthood in the same way the CC does) if the Vatican ever gets around to revisiting the question again.

I’m hoping as part of the whole Anglicanorum Coetibus thing, that may be a possibility.

Oh, and I think you guys covered the OP’s question fairly from both POVs.

 

[GKC]

Possibly. Probably, even. Form and matter would certainly be valid (now, anyways), I think you guys would just have to prove intent (ie: intending to ordain to a sacrificial Priesthood in the same way the CC does) if the Vatican ever gets around to revisiting the question again.

I’m hoping as part of the whole Anglicanorum Coetibus thing, that may be a possibility.

Oh, and I think you guys covered the OP’s question fairly from both POVs.

It is possible to make that argument, certainly, with respect to the writing of the Ordinal, re: intent. It involves discussing the preface to the Ordinal, primarily.

But a deeper point on intent is just whose intent would be the issue. Clark, in his ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION lists 7 possible interpretations of that, concluding the only logical one is a defect of intention in those who consecrated ++Parker in 1559 (Clark’s book is highly recommended, for the theological basis of the Apostolicae Curae conclusions). This, again, could be a matter for discussion; the RC assumption is that his invalid intent was demonstrated by the use of a form specifically constructed for Anglican use, which is defective in form, with regard to the sacerdotal function.

I see it otherwise, but would love to have it addressed again. Given the last 25 years of Anglicanism (and the wording of Apostoilcae Curae), I don’t expect that to happen, though. Especially in that matter is not always valid in Anglicanism these days, alas.

GKC

 

[1ke]

You should note that whatever the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, because the Anglican Communion is in communion with the Old Catholic Church, valid orders by Roman Catholic Standards exist in many Bishops of the Anglican Communion.

Maybe. Maybe not. As GKC has pointed out, it is much more complex than this.

The AC/EC priests coming over to the CC at various times under the pastoral provision established by JPII receive ordination in the CC. So, I don’t think the CC agrees with your assessment at this time.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

In my years in the Episcopal Church, seven to be exact, I never saw anything remotely similar to that…but like GKC says, Anglicanism is “elastic” and eclectic. The elastic stretches about as far as Martin Lawrence’s waistline in Big Mama’s House!

For an exuberent example of the stretch you can find in Episcopal churches, please see saintgregorys.org/worship/liturgy . This is a link to St. Gregory of Nyssa Church in San Francisco, where they wear tie-dyed versions of Orthodox vestments, and where they dance around the altar (Shaker dances). The open area around the altar is large and all stand for the liturgy there. The floor is actually a sprung disco floor so when the dancing gets going you can feel it. The saints around the top include Malcolm X, Elizabeth I, Lady Godiva, and the usual panoply of Christian saints. The saints are also doing a Shaker dance.

 

[CMatt25]

In my years in the Episcopal Church, seven to be exact, I never saw anything remotely similar to that…but like GKC says, Anglicanism is “elastic” and eclectic. The elastic stretches about as far as Martin Lawrence’s waistline in Big Mama’s House!

Do you mean passing the bread and wine to each other? The priest is actually a former Roman priest. They have 4 services. A Sat guitar service where the elements are passed. Sun the traditional rites 1 and 2 and a youth band service. Another parish offers a Sat jazz service along with traditional Sun ones.

 

[GKC]

Maybe. Maybe not. As GKC has pointed out, it is much more complex than this.

The AC/EC priests coming over to the CC at various times under the pastoral provision established by JPII receive ordination in the CC. So, I don’t think the CC agrees with your assessment at this time.

It is not clear; certainly there is no reason, beyond what occured with Graham Leonard’s ordination sub conditione, to think so. OTOH, there is no definitive statement yet.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Do you mean passing the bread and wine to each other? The priest is actually a former Roman priest. They have 4 services. A Sat guitar service where the elements are passed. Sun the traditional rites 1 and 2 and a youth band service. Another parish offers a Sat jazz service along with traditional Sun ones.

I’ve never seen anything like that, either. Can you describe it, a little?

GKC

 

[Contarini]

I’ve never attended but an Episcopal church near me has one service where the communicants pass the bread and wine to each other. But is it the norm for Episcopalians to kneel at the altar rail?

Yes, although standing is also common, and in Eucharistic liturgies with small numbers of people I’ve sometimes seen the congregation come inside the chancel and stand directly around the altar (I understand that some Roman Catholic masses do this but it’s not an approved practice). I am not surprised to hear that at certain services (perhaps using “Rite Three,” which is officially called “An Order for Celebrating the Holy Eucharist” and which allows for a freer form of worship but is not supposed to be used at the principal Sunday celebration) in some parishes people would pass the elements to one another, but this is certainly not the norm.

Edwin

 

[GKC]

Yes, although standing is also common, and in Eucharistic liturgies with small numbers of people I’ve sometimes seen the congregation come inside the chancel and stand directly around the altar (I understand that some Roman Catholic masses do this but it’s not an approved practice). I am not surprised to hear that at certain services (perhaps using “Rite Three,” which is officially called “An Order for Celebrating the Holy Eucharist” and which allows for a freer form of worship but is not supposed to be used at the principal Sunday celebration) in some parishes people would pass the elements to one another, but this is certainly not the norm.

Edwin

My experiences have been more narrowly defined.

GKC

 

[CMatt25]

I’ve never seen anything like that, either. Can you describe it, a little?GKC

I’ve never actually been but I’ve corresponded with the rectors. As I understand, the guitar service sounds similar to guitar Masses common in the RCC after Vat2. It is with acoustic guitar and piano and includes a period of silent reflection. For the Eucharist they stand gathered together around the altar and pass the bread and wine to each other right to left.

The youth band service sounds similar to RC Lifeteen with the Christian pop sound, the praise music you would hear on a Christian pop station.

The jazz service is piano, drums, keyboard, sax, the music I’m told always sacred and tied to the lessons. That one is held in the church hall.

Traditional rites 1 and 2 you’re probably familiar with.

 

[GKC]

I’ve never actually been but I’ve corresponded with the rectors. As I understand, the guitar service sounds similar to guitar Masses common in the RCC after Vat2. It is with acoustic guitar and piano and includes a period of silent reflection. For the Eucharist they stand gathered together around the altar and pass the bread and wine to each other right to left.

The youth band service sounds similar to RC Lifeteen with the Christian pop sound, the praise music you would hear on a Christian pop station.

The jazz service is piano, drums, keyboard, sax, the music I’m told always sacred and tied to the lessons. That one is held in the church hall.

Traditional rites 1 and 2 you’re probably familiar with.

Ah. I thank you.

Nothing surprises me.

GKC

 

[Contarini]

Traditional rites 1 and 2 you’re probably familiar with.

I don’t know if GKC is familiar with them from experience or not (I think he did visit some Episcopal churches back in the day and decided he couldn’t go along with that variety of Anglicanism–then later on he discovered that there was a more traditional variety available, and I doubt that he’s been to an Episcopal liturgy since), but he certainly knows about them. GKC is a Continuing Anglican. Continuing Anglicans use either the 1928 Prayer Book or the Anglican Missal (an early 20th-century liturgical book that uses the Roman Missal to supplement or replace the Book of Common Prayer where Anglo-Catholics see it as deficient) or some combination of the two. I think that GKC’s is a Missal parish.

Rite 1 of the 1979 BCP is a modification of the 1928 rite. In my opinion the 1928 rite should have been retained wholesale as Rite 1. I will defend Rite 2 (theologically, I’ll even defend the notorious “Star Wars” Eucharistic prayer, although I admit that it sounds a bit dorky and reeks of the 70s), but I think the changes made to Rite 1 were silly and unnecessary (mostly, they toned down the emphasis on sin).

Edwin

 

[GKC]

Fair guess. I started attending Episcopal churches back in high school, early 60s, then in college/grad school, late 60s, went regularly, moving in the Anglican direction. But then I saw what direction ECUSA was moving, and left, while the 79 book was still aborning in those little trial thingies they used to hand out. I was first won by the traditional Episcopal Church, circa mid 60s, then repelled at where it was headed. I watched the Continuum in birth, and was amazed to find it in my back yard, after I retired. And here I am. I would suspect that circumstances have put me into 1979 services maybe twice, in 22 years. I do own one, as well as a copy of a draft of it.

My parish has been a Missal parish for longer that I have been a member. But its future I can’t predict. Our rector died in December; his successor not yet known, but unlikely to be of the same unyielding steel.

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus *

I don’t know if GKC is familiar with them from experience or not (I think he did visit some Episcopal churches back in the day and decided he couldn’t go along with that variety of Anglicanism–then later on he discovered that there was a more traditional variety available, and I doubt that he’s been to an Episcopal liturgy since), but he certainly knows about them. GKC is a Continuing Anglican. Continuing Anglicans use either the 1928 Prayer Book or the Anglican Missal (an early 20th-century liturgical book that uses the Roman Missal to supplement or replace the Book of Common Prayer where Anglo-Catholics see it as deficient) or some combination of the two. I think that GKC’s is a Missal parish.

Rite 1 of the 1979 BCP is a modification of the 1928 rite. In my opinion the 1928 rite should have been retained wholesale as Rite 1. I will defend Rite 2 (theologically, I’ll even defend the notorious “Star Wars” Eucharistic prayer, although I admit that it sounds a bit dorky and reeks of the 70s), but I think the changes made to Rite 1 were silly and unnecessary (mostly, they toned down the emphasis on sin).

Edwin

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yeah, never witnessed that one…

Do you mean passing the bread and wine to each other? The priest is actually a former Roman priest. They have 4 services. A Sat guitar service where the elements are passed. Sun the traditional rites 1 and 2 and a youth band service. Another parish offers a Sat jazz service along with traditional Sun ones.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My blood pressure is 120 over 80. I don’t need to jeopardize that with looking at a link that’ll get me hot LOL…I’m a fuddy-duddy who would be perfectly happy to have pre-Vatican II liturgy, incense up the ying-yang, the whole nine yards. I’m not a fan of the guitar-strumming hippie tunes or the loose and fancy free “contemporary” worship. I’d like to see a law passed banning all instruments except organs from all churches everywhere on the planet earth.

For an exuberent example of the stretch you can find in Episcopal churches, please see saintgregorys.org/worship/liturgy . This is a link to St. Gregory of Nyssa Church in San Francisco, where they wear tie-dyed versions of Orthodox vestments, and where they dance around the altar (Shaker dances). The open area around the altar is large and all stand for the liturgy there. The floor is actually a sprung disco floor so when the dancing gets going you can feel it. The saints around the top include Malcolm X, Elizabeth I, Lady Godiva, and the usual panoply of Christian saints. The saints are also doing a Shaker dance.

 

[Pilgrimage]

An affirmation of faith always comes from the mouth and out of the heart of the person who is making that affirmation; in that they are confessing Jesus is Lord and believing that He is raised from the dead. You cannot receive The Holy Spirit unless your mouth has professed Him. (Roman’s 10:9-10) A Bishop cannot make this happen, no matter how often he lays his hands on you until this has taken place. Even then it is a reciprocal process between the Bishop and the receiver who has empowered the Bishop to lay hands on them. The Bishop’s is a position of expectation and Grace in itself, any church leader knows this, although they may not admit to it because it’s a part of the mysterious process. Therefore, it is no less a receiving of God’s Holy Spirit whether is from an Anglican or a Catholic. God uses whom He choses to do His work and to walk with Him.

I think that your comment about the receiving of Grace is illogical. Anyone who has received Grace has either received it or they haven’t. If the invalid can bring about a valid state, then the invalid became valid as soon as it was received.

There is a difference between having respect for a church’s rules and regulations, which I happen to know comes about because of the dynamic nature of man in a group situations, and claiming such rules to be written in the Bible. Rules of men are written to bring about conformity to their own nature and pattern of life (Romans 12:2), not God’s will for us, which is ultimately to become an image of Him though salvation.

As long as there is a church, then there will always be rules and regulations because conformity is necessary to run a church.

God bless

 

[Publisher]

I attended an Episcopal conference and they celebrated a U-2charist…I enjoyed the meeting…and while I couldn’t handle a steady dose…that day it did “speak to my condition”.

I’m not a big U-2 fan…I couldn’t even id any of their songs…and if it wasn’t announced in the bulletin…I would never have guessed anything “from the norm” was occuring other than a contemporary liturgy.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

My blood pressure is 120 over 80. I don’t need to jeopardize that with looking at a link that’ll get me hot LOL…I’m a fuddy-duddy who would be perfectly happy to have pre-Vatican II liturgy, incense up the ying-yang, the whole nine yards. I’m not a fan of the guitar-strumming hippie tunes or the loose and fancy free “contemporary” worship. I’d like to see a law passed banning all instruments except organs from all churches everywhere on the planet earth.

My dear friend, I am sure you do not oppose the violin family, the flute, the oboe, the trumpet (after all what shall sound if we ban the trumpet) and of course the harp. We should all learn to play that if we are to have any good jobs in heaven. My church has a beautiful Berkeley built harpsicord, as well as a piano.

When our organ console was out for repairs, I suggested that an organ-less church needs a castratti choir. The rector winced and the choirmaster howled.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I attended an Episcopal conference and they celebrated a U-2charist…I enjoyed the meeting…and while I couldn’t handle a steady dose…that day it did “speak to my condition”.

I’m not a big U-2 fan…I couldn’t even id any of their songs…and if it wasn’t announced in the bulletin…I would never have guessed anything “from the norm” was occuring other than a contemporary liturgy.

Yes, I have heard of the U2-charist. Also some C of E bishops took to shining shoes on Maundy Thursday in place of foot washing. Best to leave those things to the imagination.