An anti-trinitarian argument

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Hello, all ~

According to orthodox Christology, the Incarnate Christ is two Natures (Divine and human) in one Divine Person:
1 Divine Person with 2 Natures (Divine and human)

Anti-trinitarians are upset about this formulation, since the designation of the Incarnate Christ as “one Divine Person” seems to suggest that Christ is not a human person like other men. Yet, Catholics insist that Jesus Christ is indeed “fully man” (as well as fully Divine). ** The anti-trinitarian accusation, therefore, is that Catholics “do away with the human person of Jesus,” leaving him only a Divine Person**.

Any thoughts?

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
Christ is not a human person He is only a divine person.

What is the big deal?
 
Jesus Christ walked this earth as a human being in all way except the lack of original sin. He has a dual nature, both human and divine. How is this possible? BECAUSE HE WAS, IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE GOD! He does not have to explain anything to us, it is our job to believe and to spend our lives serving Him.

If one has trouble grasping the concept of the dual nature of Christ, I can only imagine the fits that the idea of the Trinity would give to them.

May God Bless You Always.

NOT JUST STRONG…CATHOLIC STRONG!!!
 
The way I like to think about both Christ’s divinity and humanity is this:

A person’s soul and body are each wholes, yet together they do no create two, but one. One person; body and soul.

In a similar way, Christ is fully God and fully man. Being 100% of both at once, makes him no less of one then the other, but fully one and not two.

Another example is marriage. It take two to become one in marriage. But being (fully) one man and (fully) one women, does not make it two marriages, but one marriage. And it takes 100% on both parts to have a complete, and successful marriage. Not 50-50.

I hope that was relevant. :p:)
 
This is the full catholic position:

Quicunque Vult (Athanasian Creed):
If anybody wants to be saved, first of all it is necessary that they hold the Catholic Faith.
Because unless everyone keeps this Faith completely and purely, without doubt they shall not be saved.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither mixing up the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
What the Father is, that is what the Son is, and also what the Holy Spirit is.
The Father was not created by anyone, the Son was not created by anyone, and the Holy Spirit was not created by anyone.
The Father is beyond our understanding, the Son is beyond our understanding, and the Holy Spirit is beyond our understanding.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet they are not three who are eternal, but one who is eternal.
And they are not three who are beyond our understanding, nor three who were not created by anyone, but one uncreated, and one beyond our understanding.
So in the same way the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Spirit is Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So in the same way the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
For just as the Christian Truth forces us to acknowledge each Person in and of himself to be both God and Lord, so the Catholic Religion forbids us to say there are three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is from no one, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son comes from the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is from the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another;
So that in all things, as was said before, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
Whoever wants to be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation also to believe correctly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Human;
God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Human, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Human, continually existing as a rational soul and human flesh together;
Equal to the Father, as God; and inferior to the Father, as human.
Who although he is God and Human, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not be changing the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the Humanity into God;
One altogether; not by mixing up the Substance of God and Human, but by uniting them in one person.
For as the rational soul and flesh together in one person is one human, so God and Human together in one person is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sits at the right hands of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At whose coming all persons shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, without which there is no salvation.

Any questions?
(BTW this prayer is where I truly learned the place of mary, as it makes clear that he is of one substance with the father in his divine nature and of one substance with his mother in his human nature.)
 
This is the full catholic position:

Quicunque Vult (Athanasian Creed):
If anybody wants to be saved, first of all it is necessary that they hold the Catholic Faith.
Because unless everyone keeps this Faith completely and purely, without doubt they shall not be saved.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither mixing up the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
What the Father is, that is what the Son is, and also what the Holy Spirit is.
The Father was not created by anyone, the Son was not created by anyone, and the Holy Spirit was not created by anyone.
The Father is beyond our understanding, the Son is beyond our understanding, and the Holy Spirit is beyond our understanding.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet they are not three who are eternal, but one who is eternal.
And they are not three who are beyond our understanding, nor three who were not created by anyone, but one uncreated, and one beyond our understanding.
So in the same way the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Spirit is Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So in the same way the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
For just as the Christian Truth forces us to acknowledge each Person in and of himself to be both God and Lord, so the Catholic Religion forbids us to say there are three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is from no one, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son comes from the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is from the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another;
So that in all things, as was said before, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
Whoever wants to be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation also to believe correctly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Human;
God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Human, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Human, continually existing as a rational soul and human flesh together;
Equal to the Father, as God; and inferior to the Father, as human.
Who although he is God and Human, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not be changing the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the Humanity into God;
One altogether; not by mixing up the Substance of God and Human, but by uniting them in one person.
For as the rational soul and flesh together in one person is one human, so God and Human together in one person is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sits at the right hands of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At whose coming all persons shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, without which there is no salvation.

Any questions?
(BTW this prayer is where I truly learned the place of mary, as it makes clear that he is of one substance with the father in his divine nature, and in a similar manner of one substance with his mother in his human nature.)
 
Emily23 said:
The way I like to think about both Christ’s divinity and humanity is this:

A person’s soul and body are each wholes, yet together they do no create two, but one. One person; body and soul.
Click to expand...
Ooooo, I like that! That seems to me to be a wonderful example. Being that one of my best friends is Mormon, this will be a very useful image!

And no, Christ is not a human person. But anti-trinitarians are wrong in assuming that because we do not call him a human person, we diminish his humanity. They simply need to examine our doctrine of the hypostatic union to understand that we solemnly declare Christ as having a human nature (along with a divine one). Once they understand that we teach Christ was indeed 100% human, I fail to see how they can assert that we teach otherwise.
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
This is the full catholic position:

Quicunque Vult (Athanasian Creed):
If anybody wants to be saved, first of all it is necessary that they hold the Catholic Faith.
Because unless everyone keeps this Faith completely and purely, without doubt they shall not be saved.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither mixing up the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
What the Father is, that is what the Son is, and also what the Holy Spirit is.
The Father was not created by anyone, the Son was not created by anyone, and the Holy Spirit was not created by anyone.
The Father is beyond our understanding, the Son is beyond our understanding, and the Holy Spirit is beyond our understanding.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet they are not three who are eternal, but one who is eternal.
And they are not three who are beyond our understanding, nor three who were not created by anyone, but one uncreated, and one beyond our understanding.
So in the same way the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Spirit is Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So in the same way the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
For just as the Christian Truth forces us to acknowledge each Person in and of himself to be both God and Lord, so the Catholic Religion forbids us to say there are three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is from no one, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son comes from the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is from the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another;
So that in all things, as was said before, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
Whoever wants to be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation also to believe correctly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Human;
God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Human, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Human, continually existing as a rational soul and human flesh together;
Equal to the Father, as God; and inferior to the Father, as human.
Who although he is God and Human, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not be changing the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the Humanity into God;
One altogether; not by mixing up the Substance of God and Human, but by uniting them in one person.
For as the rational soul and flesh together in one person is one human, so God and Human together in one person is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sits at the right hands of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At whose coming all persons shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, without which there is no salvation.

Any questions?
(BTW this prayer is where I truly learned the place of mary, as it makes clear that he is of one substance with the father in his divine nature, and in a similar manner of one substance with his mother in his human nature.)
Click to expand...
wonderfully done!

:highprayer::byzsoc:
 
Koopa said:
…And no, Christ is not a human person. But anti-trinitarians are wrong in assuming that because we do not call him a human person, we diminish his humanity. They simply need to examine our doctrine of the hypostatic union to understand that we solemnly declare Christ as having a human nature (along with a divine one). Once they understand that we teach Christ was indeed 100% human, I fail to see how they can assert that we teach otherwise.
Click to expand...
They acknowledge that Catholics affirm Christ as fully human, that he had a human nature. It’s that he seems to lack human personhood that concerns them. If Christ is a Divine Person, they maintain, then he is not a human person. What, then, does this say about Jesus Christ?

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
Cruciform said:
They acknowledge that Catholics affirm Christ as fully human, that he had a human nature. It’s that he seems to lack human personhood that concerns them. If Christ is a Divine Person, they maintain, then he is not a human person. What, then, does this say about Jesus Christ?
Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
Click to expand...
The Incarnation is not a human person, but a human nature and a Divine nature. Therefore Jesus Christ is only a person in that he has both a Human nature (Body and Soul) and the Divine Nature of the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity.

Jesus Christ is indeed a person, but not a human person. There was only one person like Jesus Christ ever in the history of all creation having both a human nature and a divine nature combined in a hypostasis. To say that Jesus Christ is a human person is wrong. It is in fact another twist on the old Arian Heresy, or perhaps the Nestorian. It is an error that bedevils “born-again” Christians.
 
When the Word took on human nature, He took on a human will, a human soul, a human body, everything that is truly human. All of this is normally enough to bring about a human person. But Christ is not a human person, but a Divine Person. The reason for that is that the human nature is a part of the whole existing subject.

The hand of Socrates is not a person, but is part of that whole which we call the human person. This is similar to the hypostatic union, as the human nature is assumed, and this union takes place in the Person.
 
Thanks, folks! The comments have been most helpful. God bless.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
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