An Apologists guide to Islam

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Isaiah 53 is a clear connection, I quoted the rest to show that He will be called Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, Mighty God.
  1. Jesus was never called the everlasting Father. Jesus was styled as the Son.
  2. Do the Jews see this as a prophecy of Jesus?
    An important question. Because while Christians can argue that Prophet Muhammad does not fit within the worldview of the Christians, so to can it be argue that Jesus does not fit in the worldview of the Jews.
If you argue that Jews don’t understand their text properly, so too can I argue Christian do not understand their text properly. Basically whatever you say about the Jews and their understanding of the Old Testament, I’m at liberty to say about you and your understanding of Gospel.
Paul was confronted by Jesus was he not? Paul was extremely sincere in what he said about his mission.
Many false things can be uttered in a state of sincere. I’m a sincere seeker of truth, yet I’m sure you believe many of things that I utter is false.
If you look at the direct context of this chapter you’ll see that Jesus was claiming to have existed before Abraham and taking the title, “I Am.” Then the Jews wanted to kill Him.
  1. one cannot be certain that he was claiming the title of I am that I am. As he did not state the full title of I am
    That I am. Thus it is possible to have various meanings. He could have just insisted the expression I am which could means I existed.
  2. even if he meant the title I AM, it would have to be understood in that context of John 10:30-36 that he was not saying He was the Father, but one with Father, as all human beings are, as explained by Jesus.
I’m curious, what’s the Islamic position on Jesus existing before Abraham or John the Baptist?
We believe this about Prophet Muhammad, that he existed before the Physical birth of Abraham but we don’t see him as God.
John was older than Jesus, can you explain how this is possible?
Man is comprised of a mind, body and a spirit. What is intended is the spirit of the person existed before the physical body.
Also, Muslims reject Jesus as the literal Son of God. Explain Mark 14:62 to me?
Son of Man, Son of God, Elohim (the Hebrew word for God, god), are all titles that men who are close to God can bear.

I seriously believe the Gentiles during the time of Jesus misunderstood these titles being expressed by Jesus and saw him as the literal son of God, and literally God, etc. and this is what led to the incorrect theology of Christianity.
 
More importantly, Christ also said that no one can come to the Father, except through Him. Further, no one can come to Christ, unless the Father draws him.

You need Christ to access the Father.

It is also said that: No one speaking by the Spirit of God can say: “Jesus be cursed”, and no one can say: “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you want to take that expression literally. That is your choice. I don’t obligated to do so. I
Believe the bridge to God exist in ourselves, whether you want to call that Christ, the word or whatever is your choice. But God is with me.
 
If you want to take that expression literally. That is your choice. I don’t obligated to do so. I
Believe the bridge to God exist in ourselves, whether you want to call that Christ, the word or whatever is your choice. But God is with me.
I really thought you were interested in learning our 2000 year old Faith. Oh well.

MJ
 
If you want to take that expression literally. That is your choice. I don’t obligated to do so. I
Believe the bridge to God exist in ourselves, whether you want to call that Christ, the word or whatever is your choice. But God is with me.
There is no hyperbole in this statement by Christ as it is confirmed throughout the New Testament. And by the way, the Church was founded by Jews, it was after Pentecost that we (Gentiles) were brought into the Church as it was foretold by the Prophets.

At this point you are walking a thin line and crossing over to willful ignorance or conscious rejection. Once we have been enlighten with the truth, we are bound by it.

[bibledrb]Hebrews 6[/bibledrb]
 
  1. Jesus was never called the everlasting Father. Jesus was styled as the Son.
You must remember that with the language being used, all of these names can be applied to Jesus Christ. Let me explain.

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This can either be accepted (as it is by Christians) as applying to Jesus, or it can be applied to Hezekiah, son of Ahaz. Either way, your belief that it is negated because it says “Everlasting Father” is refuted by both Jews and Christians.

So Christians often accept this as only applying to Jesus, and Jews accept this as only applying to Hezekiah, but it can also be believed to be about both. Look at what the rest of the Prophecy says:

7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
** there will be no end.**
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

The rest of this Prophecy here does not apply to Hezekiah because if it did, then the Prophecy was not fulfilled. As you can see Hezekiah’s never ending peace and his forever lasting justice and righteousness has expired. Christ’s however has not.

So one must accept one of the following three scenarios:
  1. This is only about Jesus
  2. This is about Hezekiah and a prelude to Jesus
  3. God was wrong, the Prophecy never was fulfilled
  1. Do the Jews see this as a prophecy of Jesus?
    An important question. Because while Christians can argue that Prophet Muhammad does not fit within the worldview of the Christians, so to can it be argue that Jesus does not fit in the worldview of the Jews.
If you argue that Jews don’t understand their text properly, so too can I argue Christian do not understand their text properly. Basically whatever you say about the Jews and their understanding of the Old Testament, I’m at liberty to say about you and your understanding of Gospel.
Well, let’s look for historical proof of our earliest evidence of this being understood in a certain way. There is no historical proof that the Jews ever denied Isaiah 53 as being about a person prior to Jesus Christ, but let’s look at the proof we do have!

26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. 29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”

30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”
***

(Stop here to explain that this is straight from Isaiah 53… Moving on.)

34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [37] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

Notice how back then this was recognized as a Prophecy about a person!

You must admit, the Bible is pretty incredible.*
 
Many false things can be uttered in a state of sincere. I’m a sincere seeker of truth, yet I’m sure you believe many of things that I utter is false.
No doubt, but let me explain to you where I’m getting the sincerity of Paul from:

1 Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism,** how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.** 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20** I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.**

21 Then I went to Syria and Cilicia. 22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they praised God because of me.

Why did Paul go from a high class man, extremely zealous to this…

2 corin 11:24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever,** knows that I am not lying**. 32 In** Damascus** the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a** basket from a window in the wall** and slipped through his hands.

(Quick side note for any Apologists out there, take a look at verse 32-33, I highlighted the Damascus and the wall on purpose, now take a look at Acts 9:22-25)

22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

23 After many days had gone by, there was a conspiracy among the Jews to kill him, 24 but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. 25 But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a **basket through an opening in the wall.
**
We believe this about Prophet Muhammad, that he existed before the Physical birth of Abraham but we don’t see him as God.

Man is comprised of a mind, body and a spirit. What is intended is the spirit of the person existed before the physical body.
Interesting. Thanks for that, I did not know this was the Islamic position.
Son of Man, Son of God, Elohim (the Hebrew word for God, god), are all titles that men who are close to God can bear.

I seriously believe the Gentiles during the time of Jesus misunderstood these titles being expressed by Jesus and saw him as the literal son of God, and literally God, etc. and this is what led to the incorrect theology of Christianity.
But so did the Jews! Christianity exploded, and they all believed that Jesus was the Son of God.
 
Also, when Jesus said “I am” you must remember what He quoted next:

14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Jesus was claiming this passage to be about Himself.
 
Also, when Jesus said “I am” you must remember what He quoted next:

14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Jesus was claiming this passage to be about Himself.
  1. Part of the problem is that I don’t necessarily consider the 4 Gospels 100% authentic, how can they be when, what is written above the cross is different in every gospel. This tells me there is errors in the Gospel.
  2. Each Gospel has a particular theme or crowd that it was addressing, which means the quotes used were tailored to that particular audience, which also suggest that perhaps some of the quotes may have been fabricated.
  3. I don’t think the early Christians agreed on everything, there were Christians who believed Jesus was God, there were some who believed he was a literal son of God and then there were some who believed he was a mere man. I don’t think there was a monolith. I think the difference existed largely due to some disciples being Jews and some being gentile of various backgrounds. Because of this wide differences among the disciples, the church opt to take a middle road so to speak and combine the beliefs, Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.
  4. In regard to what followed the “I am” quote. I don’t have the Greek text in front of to know if other meaning could have been understood. Also Jesus spoke Aramic or Hebrew, thus the Greek is actually a translation of that. And that just complicates the issues, what are the various meaning the original Hebrew or Aramaic could have Meant. In Islam, we specialize in interpretations of scripture, language, grammar, rhetoric, vocabulary, morphology, time of quote or statement (when it was revealed), who it was said to etc all play a part in understanding scripture. It is not a simply task.
  5. Also there isn’t a consensus on who wrote the four gospels. Biblical scholars disagree on who wrote the Gospel of John. If you don’t know the author for certain, then you cannot be certain of the content.
The truth will never be known because the difference existed among the disciples. Early
Christianity is very complicated if one is seeking the truth. It is simple if one want to simply just trust the early Church fathers.

Those are my thoughts on the issue.
 
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