an apology...

[stuart12]

I have only been active on this forum for a few months, contributing little but enjoying reading some of the discussions. To be frank, I thought many of the people on here were a bit over the top in their condemnation of the Novus Ordo Missae and far too over zealous in their promotion of theTridentine Mass. I thought that you were wrong to be so strong opinioned as that but it seems that I am the one who has been quite mistaken.

At a Mass I recently attended abroad, the priest had us gather around the altar holding hands during the Our Father, I was really uncomfortable with it and since I really liked the priest, I did not want to make a show of it. It seemed so irreverent and it certainly did not appear to be the ‘Sacrifice of the Mass’ with this new innovation. A member of our parish I spoke to about it said that it was fine and was good for solidarity, but everything I look up on the web about it, it is very strictly condemned by Rome. Also, I believed many of you were mad with your constant ascertion that communion in the hand is wrong and sacriligious but I was wrong again. I have just started doing that and it feels much better now. I am only a new Catholic, so I don’t want to end up making enemies in my parish by going ‘abuse hunting’. I am researching the Tridentine Mass just now but because the town I live in (in Scotland) is not that big, I am having trouble finding an Extraordinary Form Mass. Anyway, I will keep trying. Thanks to all of you, and you all are in my prayers. God Bless, Stuart

 

[misterbee]

I have no idea where in Scotland you are, but here’s at least ONE Traditional Latin Mass:

fssp.org.uk/scotland.html

And, upon further research, here are a few others that appear to be in union with Rome:

geocities.com/unavocescotland/masses.htm

 

[LilyM]

I have only been active on this forum for a few months, contributing little but enjoying reading some of the discussions. To be frank, I thought many of the people on here were a bit over the top in their condemnation of the Novus Ordo Missae and far too over zealous in their promotion of theTridentine Mass. I thought that you were wrong to be so strong opinioned as that but it seems that I am the one who has been quite mistaken.

At a Mass I recently attended abroad, the priest had us gather around the altar holding hands during the Our Father, I was really uncomfortable with it and since I really liked the priest, I did not want to make a show of it. It seemed so irreverent and it certainly did not appear to be the ‘Sacrifice of the Mass’ with this new innovation. A member of our parish I spoke to about it said that it was fine and was good for solidarity, but everything I look up on the web about it, it is very strictly condemned by Rome. Also, I believed many of you were mad with your constant ascertion that communion in the hand is wrong and sacriligious but I was wrong again. I have just started doing that and it feels much better now. I am only a new Catholic, so I don’t want to end up making enemies in my parish by going ‘abuse hunting’. I am researching the Tridentine Mass just now but because the town I live in (in Scotland) is not that big, I am having trouble finding an Extraordinary Form Mass. Anyway, I will keep trying. Thanks to all of you, and you all are in my prayers. God Bless, Stuart

I’ve attended Ordinary Form Masses consistently for over 20 years, both in my country and abroad - I have only once in that entire time (which includes many many daily Masses over the past 2 years as well as the Sunday Masses) seen people invited to gather round the altar as you describe.

I suggest you try a few other OF parishes before dismissing an entire, perfectly valid, form of the Mass based on one errant parish (and what sounds like a single errant Mass within that parish to boot). If your wife cooked you one lousy Italian meal would you then abandon not only her cooking but all Italian food altogether forever after? Would it not be ridiculous to do so?

As for communion in the hand, what does that have to do with the price of eggs? Again, it is a perfectly valid and permissible and approved (regardless of all the bellyaching over how it came to be approved) means by which to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord.

 

[stuart12]

I have no idea where in Scotland you are, but here’s at least ONE Traditional Latin Mass:

fssp.org.uk/scotland.html

And, upon further research, here are a few others that appear to be in union with Rome:

geocities.com/unavocescotland/masses.htm

Thanks for that. That parish is not far from me half an hour travel or so. God Bless

 

[GailMac]

You go Stuart! I wish there was a good Tridentine available to me.

Many are called to return to the Traditional forms of worship i.e. Latin usages. It is clear the Spirit is moving us.

I’m currently trying to learn Latin in my faltering way.

I’m also a convert and must add that listening to more than one CD of Gregorian Chant stirred my soul in places I’d never even knew existed. I had no idea what they were saying, singing and praying but I KNEW it pleased God and that was all that really mattered when it got right down to it. I still listen to them, but not with the fervor of my first days of waiting to be His as a Catholic woman. There is something of the Communion of the Saints in praying in the same tongue as the ancient Church. One Body with one tongue - makes perfect sense to me! But that is just my opinion.

Peace,

Gail

 

[peary1]

I have only been active on this forum for a few months, contributing little but enjoying reading some of the discussions. To be frank, I thought many of the people on here were a bit over the top in their condemnation of the Novus Ordo Missae and far too over zealous in their promotion of theTridentine Mass. I thought that you were wrong to be so strong opinioned as that but it seems that I am the one who has been quite mistaken.

At a Mass I recently attended abroad, the priest had us gather around the altar holding hands during the Our Father, I was really uncomfortable with it and since I really liked the priest, I did not want to make a show of it. It seemed so irreverent and it certainly did not appear to be the ‘Sacrifice of the Mass’ with this new innovation. A member of our parish I spoke to about it said that it was fine and was good for solidarity, but everything I look up on the web about it, it is very strictly condemned by Rome. Also, I believed many of you were mad with your constant ascertion that communion in the hand is wrong and sacriligious but I was wrong again. I have just started doing that and it feels much better now. I am only a new Catholic, so I don’t want to end up making enemies in my parish by going ‘abuse hunting’. I am researching the Tridentine Mass just now but because the town I live in (in Scotland) is not that big, I am having trouble finding an Extraordinary Form Mass. Anyway, I will keep trying. Thanks to all of you, and you all are in my prayers. God Bless, Stuart

If done appropriately and all rubrics followed the way they should be, the Novus Ordo Missae is quite moving and beautiful.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

I’ve attended Ordinary Form Masses consistently for over 20 years, both in my country and abroad - I have only once in that entire time (which includes many many daily Masses over the past 2 years as well as the Sunday Masses) seen people invited to gather round the altar as you describe.

It’s just personal experience. I’ve seen the ‘round-the-altar-holding-hands’ routine regularly at one parish. Not so much (or never) at others. It’s just annoying that this type of flagrant disobedience is never addressed, and therefore happens at some churches and not at others. The Mass should always be recognizeable as such. There is a great need for the priests NOT to “get creative”, especially with sacred rites. Priests should FEAR scandalizing the least of their flocks. They are responsible to God for the salvation of all those souls, and abuses are scandalous to those who take their faith seriously and understand both the evil of the action, and the implications of them, but probably even moreso to those who don’t know any better and will believe that these things are ok. This is not a condemnation of you, Lily.

I suggest you try a few other OF parishes before dismissing an entire, perfectly valid, form of the Mass based on one errant parish (and what sounds like a single errant Mass within that parish to boot). If your wife cooked you one lousy Italian meal would you then abandon not only her cooking but all Italian food altogether forever after? Would it not be ridiculous to do so?

The nice thing about the EF is that this abuse never occurs and therefore nobody has to be wary of it in that setting. That’s why so many people like attending the EF. There’s no reason to try more OF parishes if one would prefer the EF. Don’t think about it as just one messed up Italian meal. Think of it more as getting your steak cooked exactly the way you ordered it (instead of over/under-cooked). At the EF Stuart will get it how he wants it every time.

As for communion in the hand, what does that have to do with the price of eggs? Again, it is a perfectly valid and permissible and approved (regardless of all the bellyaching over how it came to be approved) means by which to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord.

Just because something is valid and permissible doesn’t mean it’s reverent. Give your best to God, i.e., on your knees, humbly submitting to receiving God directly from the priest on the tongue. Think of it as a FIAT, “be it done unto me according to Thy word” instead of holding your hands out as though you are worthy to take Christ. Make no mistake, you are not (even if the practice is ‘valid’ and ‘permissible’ etc.). Just because He gave himself as a victim doesn’t mean any of us are worthy to take Him. He gifted himself to us. Nobody is entitled to a gift. Think about your birthday. You are given gifts, but you are not entitled to them. You just thank the person with the gratitude the act of giving deserves.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I’m wondering if the holding of hands around the altar should not be directly attributed to the OF Mass…even though this is where it seems to occur. There is absolutely nothing in the Roman Missal or Sacramentary of the OF to suggest this…not even a hint in that direction.

It’s more a case of presiders taking liberties…getting “creative” as CassiusLonginus so deftly stated.

…just my own observations.

 

[peary1]

Originally Posted by CassiusLonginus
Just because something is valid and permissible doesn’t mean it’s reverent. Give your best to God, i.e., on your knees, humbly submitting to receiving God directly from the priest on the tongue. Think of it as a FIAT, “be it done unto me according to Thy word” instead of holding your hands out as though you are worthy to take Christ. Make no mistake, you are not (even if the practice is ‘valid’ and ‘permissible’ etc.). Just because He gave himself as a victim doesn’t mean any of us are worthy to take Him. He gifted himself to us. Nobody is entitled to a gift. Think about your birthday. You are given gifts, but you are not entitled to them. You just thank the person with the gratitude the act of giving deserves.

**As long as the Church authority has made the decision, then we are not personally responsible, in my opinion. I fail to see where not being on our knees is an inward sign of pride. Holiness is something that is within. Whether on our knees to receive the Eucharist or not, don’t think we do not understand Who it is we are receiving from the hands of the priest, whether placed on our tongue or in our hand. **

 

[CassiusLonginus]

As long as the Church authority has made the decision, then we are not personally responsible, in my opinion.

You may not personally be responsible, however…

I fail to see where not being on our knees is an inward sign of pride.

It’s an outward sign of a lack of reverence. I didn’t say anything about pride. I was talking about reverence.

Holiness is something that is within.

Faith without works is dead.

Whether on our knees to receive the Eucharist or not, don’t think we do not understand Who it is we are receiving from the hands of the priest, whether placed on our tongue or in our hand.

Which is why it’s even worse! You know exactly Who you are receiving, and yet refrain from doing ALL that you can DO to show your love and reverence to Whom you owe everything!

Being Catholic means you know and believe that you are receiving Christ in the most Blessed Sacrament. That’s the ‘faith’ part. Getting down on your knees is the ‘work’ part, or in other words, proof of your faith. It is by grace through **faith, ****working **in love…

It is apparent that standing and taking the sacred host to ‘feed’ to oneself has accounted for a huge loss of reverence and faith over the last 40 years.

 

[LilyM]

It’s an outward sign of a lack of reverence. I didn’t say anything about pride. I was talking about reverence.

Tell that to Eastern Catholics - they’ve never ever knelt at any point in history during their Divine Liturgies, yet they are not at all lacking in reverence. It is possible to be reverent without kneeling. It’s not an outward sign of a lack of anything.

Faith without works is dead.

Of course. And we all do the works of faith when we firstly kneel for the Consecration, secondly when we say ‘Lord I am not worthy’ and finally when we bow or genuflect prior to reception - and equally importantly when we say ‘Amen’ to the priest’s statement ‘the Body of Christ’. The good thief, remember, was saved by his verbal statement of faith, not by any physical gesture or posture.

Or has Christ appointed you the sole authority on ‘work of faith’ and revealed to you that only physical works count?

Which is why it’s even worse! You know exactly Who you are receiving, and yet refrain from doing ALL that you can DO to show your love and reverence to Whom you owe everything!

So why aren’t you crawling on hands and knees up the aisle from the back of the Church to receive, if it’s about doing ALL you can? Better still - you can show more reverence by not daring to approach the altar or receive Communion at all - that would show a proper awareness of your (our) utter unworthiness to do so.

Being Catholic means you know and believe that you are receiving Christ in the most Blessed Sacrament. That’s the ‘faith’ part. Getting down on your knees is the ‘work’ part, or in other words, proof of your faith. It is by grace through **faith, ****working **in love…

See above - where is it stated that only physical gestures or postures matter or count as ‘works’?

It is apparent that standing and taking the sacred host to ‘feed’ to oneself has accounted for a huge loss of reverence and faith over the last 40 years.

It is apparent that you know nothing about the matter - the entire 1960s mentality of questioning all authority and all received learning easily accounts for the lack of reverence and faith. Hence the mainstream non-Catholic denominations all having similar problems to the Catholic - including loss of membership, decline in church attendance and participation, and I dare say their ‘communion’ services are similarly less reverent than they used to be, and fewer people of all denominations belive in any form of Real Presence (con- or tran- substantial) as well.

 

[peary1]

You may not personally be responsible, however…

It’s an outward sign of a lack of reverence. I didn’t say anything about pride. I was talking about reverence.

Not kneeling is not a lack of reverence. That is pure subjectivism on your part.

Faith without works is dead.

**You can’t be holy without Faith. **

Which is why it’s even worse! You know exactly Who you are receiving, and yet refrain from doing ALL that you can DO to show your love and reverence to Whom you owe everything!

That’s bogus. You have the rest of the congregation to think about too. You can’t just drop to your knees in a fit of personal piety during the reception of Communion whenever you feel like it.

Being Catholic means you know and believe that you are receiving Christ in the most Blessed Sacrament. That’s the ‘faith’ part. Getting down on your knees is the ‘work’ part, or in other words, proof of your faith. It is by grace through **faith, ****working **in love…

Tell that to one who has lost his or her legs. By your standard, there is no ‘proof’ of their Faith.

It is apparent that standing and taking the sacred host to ‘feed’ to oneself has accounted for a huge loss of reverence and faith over the last 40 years.

That is debatable and, again, subjective on your part.

 

[SunnyGem]

Hello Stuart

Have you heard of the Transalpine Redemptorists on the island of Stronsay? They have just been re-named as Sons Of The Most Holy Redeemer. There is a Mass every Sunday at 9.00am on Stronsay. Here is the link to their blog -Transalpine Redemptorists at home I believe they’re reconstructing their website which should be www.papastronsay.com I would also recommend the Redemptorists for a personal retreat. I went there last November and it was the best thing I’ve ever done! Utterly peaceful and quiet, and the Fathers and Brothers are so encouraging and kind.

Of course you might not live near enough to go to the Stronsay Mass every Sunday but it’s well worth going if you can

Also I know of two Society of St Pius X Masses:

EDINBURGH Saints Margaret and Leonard 110 Saint Leonard’s Street, EH8 9RD Tel: 0131 333 1237 Mass: 1300 every Sunday

GLASGOW Saint Andrew’s Church, 202 Renfrew Street, G3 6TX Tel: 01698 259 637 Mass: 1000 Every Sunday

I hope these might be of help in your quest for a Tridentine Mass

 

[stuart12]

thanks all

i tried to go to the EF Mass today at Saint Andrews in edinburgh. However, when I arrived at the station (which is about 35 mins walk), I thought that the trains had been cancelled because of water logging as it was terrible weather last night. So I ended up just going down to my own parish for the normal Mass. I will try again next week maybe, God willing.

God Bless

 

[ethelzguy]

The nice thing about the EF is that this abuse never occurs and therefore nobody has to be wary of it in that setting. That’s why so many people like attending the EF. There’s no reason to try more OF parishes if one would prefer the EF. Don’t think about it as just one messed up Italian meal. Think of it more as getting your steak cooked exactly the way you ordered it (instead of over/under-cooked). At the EF Stuart will get it how he wants it every time.

So, it is your position, that “abuses” do not, and did not occur at Latin Masses?

I like your analogy of the steak “cooked the way YOU ordered it”.

Welcome to Luby’s

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Tell that to Eastern Catholics - they’ve never ever knelt at any point in history during their Divine Liturgies, yet they are not at all lacking in reverence. It is possible to be reverent without kneeling. It’s not an outward sign of a lack of anything.

Maybe you should attend an eastern rite then. I’m talking about Roman Catholicism here. In the eastern churches it has been the norm to receive communion the way they do. Their rite dictates that within that rite, that is the normative and best way to receive. In the Roman church, posture has changed over the millenia to culminate in the most reverent way of receiving the Lord without being silly about it (crawling? Sure, it’d be reverent, but not at all practical). Kneeling and receiving was adopted over and above, as a better more reverent posture to standing and taking because it is…you guessed it, more reverent. And now, we’re back to standing and taking which says “The host is not actually as valuable as we once believed and practiced. People used to kneel to receive, but that’s not important anymore, and we know better now”.

Or has Christ appointed you the sole authority on ‘work of faith’ and revealed to you that only physical works count?

Yes, didn’t you get the memo?

So why aren’t you crawling on hands and knees up the aisle from the back of the Church to receive, if it’s about doing ALL you can? Better still - you can show more reverence by not daring to approach the altar or receive Communion at all - that would show a proper awareness of your (our) utter unworthiness to do so.

As I said above, it’s the most reverent and practical way to receive the Lord. People used to genuflect (on one knee or the other) to greet bishops and popes, how much moreso for receiving the Lord!? If you met your local ordinary today, how would you greet him? With a handshake? Is that reverent or appropriate? Of course not! You genuflect on your left knee and address him as is appropriate to his office. You genuflect because he deigns to meet/talk with you. How much moreso to receive Christ in the most holy sacrament of the altar?

See above - where is it stated that only physical gestures or postures matter or count as ‘works’?

It isn’t ‘stated’ anywhere, but it is indicative. Lex orandi, lex credendi. Thus the relaxed attitude today toward what and Who the Eucharist is. That’s why polls often show that “67%” or whatever, of Catholics believe in the real presence. Of course, 100% of Catholics actually believe. Those who say they don’t have basically put themselves, or are in danger of putting themselves, out of the church.

…and I dare say their ‘communion’ services are similarly less reverent than they used to be, and fewer people of all denominations belive in any form of Real Presence (con- or tran- substantial) as well.

So…you’re agreeing with me now? SW33T!

 

[DebChris]

I think it was the late John Powell who said that what most people fear is intimacy. The only time that I have attended Mass during which we gathered around the altar was during retreats. Was it a small church? God calls each of us to an intimate relationship to Himself, and our relationship to each other mirrors our relationship to God.
I personally have no desire to return to the Tridentine Mass. I do not speak Latin. The monsignor who was pastor when I first joined the parish to which I now belong is probably the most conservative priest that I have ever known. He spent some time during homilies as a visiting priest (he is now retired) talking about how he would not want to return to that form. Much of the discussion centered on the lack of understanding and repetition, the reason for the liturgical reforms brought about by Vatican II.
As the OP mentioned, he is new to the Faith. While there was reverence in the Tridentine Mass, I have no problem bringing that same reverence to the OF. I received on the tongue, except when the bread was homemade, until a pastor quoted how the tongue is a two edged sword. The tongue is no more holy than any other part of the body. What I would say is to not give up on the OF. It is possible to experience the intimacy to which God calls us while simultaneously giving Him the reverence He deserves.
Attend a Tridentine Mass to see the difference, maybe once a month. as your faith continues to develop. I do not believe that God would want us arguing about how we choose to give Him the praise and worship that is due.
I would be more concerned if you gathered around the altar prior to the consecration. We are called to full participation in the Mass, but not to concelebration.

 

[LilyM]

(crawling? Sure, it’d be reverent, but not at all practical).

So you’re the authority on what is practical now as well as what is reverent? There’s no end to your talents.

If you met your local ordinary today, how would you greet him? With a handshake? Is that reverent or appropriate? Of course not! You genuflect on your left knee and address him as is appropriate to his office. You genuflect because he deigns to meet/talk with you. How much moreso to receive Christ in the most holy sacrament of the altar?

I’ve met my local ordinary - I absolutely did not genuflect. Such a gesture I reserve to God alone - and more especially Jesus present in the Eucharist, and not to any man, holy and exalted as his office may be. Of course I shook his hand, as did everybody (and I mean EVERYBODY) else who met him along with me. And it was perfectly reverent and appropriate to do so - my local ordinary is NOT God, nor is he Jesus, so I would NOT give him the same deference that I do the Holy Trinity and the Blessed Sacrament. To do so smacks of idolatry if not actually being idolatrous.

He didn’t mind in the slightest, and I’m sure he and the Almighty took not the slightest offence by it. Even most people who meet the Queen nowadays do a little bob of the knee (not a full curtsey or genuflection as they used to do). So it IS reflective of a societal change in appropriateness of such physical postures.

So…you’re agreeing with me now? SW33T!

Not in the slightest. To phrase my thoughts correctly, I meant less “reverent” (note the quotation marks) - in other words less kneeling and prostrating and crawling and such. I don’t, and you shouldn’t, presume to read hearts and minds and certainly neither of us is in any position to say that anyone is actually less reverent.

Note it’s lex ‘orandi’ - meaning the law of prayer. Not the law of physical posture. Physical posture is a tiny (and I mean TINY) part of prayer. Both Jesus and the apostles prayed in many different situations - and employed numerous postures, standing as well as kneeling. Do you really think the prayers they prayed standing were either less reverent or less pleasing to God?

 

[CassiusLonginus]

So you’re the authority on what is practical now as well as what is reverent? There’s no end to your talents.

Jealous much?

I’ve met my local ordinary - I absolutely did not genuflect.

I specified genuflecting on the LEFT KNEE.

Such a gesture I reserve to God alone

Yes, on the RIGHT KNEE when entering the church when the Blessed Sacrament is not being adored on the altar.

and more especially Jesus present in the Eucharist,

In which circumstance a double genuflection (BOTH KNEES) is proper (such as during adoration). That’s why people KNEEL to receive communion. He’s no longer in the tabernacle, he’s present within the church (as during adoration…remember double genuflection, AKA BOTH KNEES). Were you aware of any of this!!!

and not to any man, holy and exalted as his office may be.

But this is the tradition, as I mentioned. Bob a curtsy to your queen, but genuflect on the LEFT KNEE for a bishop, whose station in life is higher than a queen’s.

Of course I shook his hand, as did everybody (and I mean EVERYBODY) else who met him along with me. And it was perfectly reverent and appropriate to do so -

That’s perfectly alright amongst equals. You aren’t a bishop’s equal. You defer to him. And don’t forget to kiss his ring while you’re on your LEFT KNEE.

my local ordinary is NOT God, nor is he Jesus, so I would NOT give him the same deference that I do the Holy Trinity and the Blessed Sacrament.

That’s why you use the LEFT KNEE.

To do so smacks of idolatry if not actually being idolatrous.

Ok, so all the saints and faithful of the last thousand years have been idolators. Ok, I can handle that. I guess I’m one too. By the way, have you ever knelt down in front of a statue or image in your home? You have!!! you idolator!!! For SHAME!!!

He didn’t mind in the slightest

And parish priests don’t mind lay folk buzzing around the altar handling the sacred species…thus the loss of reverence which leads to an apathy and loss of faith.

and I’m sure he and the Almighty took not the slightest offence by it.

Not qualified to say. This was one memo I didn’t receive. I think God keeps his own counsel on what is offensive.

Even most people who meet the Queen nowadays do a little bob of the knee (not a full curtsey or genuflection as they used to do). So it IS reflective of a societal change in appropriateness of such physical postures.

Yes it is, and that’s why it’s such a damned, dangerous shame.

I don’t, and you shouldn’t, presume to read hearts and minds and certainly neither of us is in any position to say that anyone is actually less reverent.

The point was that posture is indicative. It ‘indicates’. It doesn’t ‘conclude’ or ‘presume’. I don’t presume to read hearts any more than you. I do know from experience, however, that if I sit on my bed to pray, all relaxed and reclined, that it is out of laziness that I’m not beside my bed kneeling, instead of laying in it. If it were somebody else I wouldn’t assume they were being lazy (they could have a broken back or knee cap or something), but I know that for myself, strong and able-bodied, it is laziness and my posture is indicative.

Note it’s lex ‘orandi’ - meaning the law of prayer. Not the law of physical posture. Physical posture is a tiny (and I mean TINY) part of prayer.

Actually, the latin translates basically as “the manner in which you pray is how you believe”. From my example above, I could conclude about myself that if I lay in bed to pray, my comfort is as important to me as prayer. Therefore, when I can, I pray on my knees (can’t do that in my car, on my bike, hiking, in class, playing my cello etc.) because it is something I can offer for the Lord’s sufferings on the cross. I offer my discomfort and pain and unite it to Christ’s sacrifice. Believe me, as a 23-year OF attendee, starting to pray on my knees after becoming traditional was definitely NOT fun, especially during an hour of adoration, or even 15 minutes of the rosary. You can’t always have padded kneelers, or even carpet. ‘Offer it up’ is what I tell myself.

Both Jesus and the apostles prayed in many different situations - and employed numerous postures, standing as well as kneeling. Do you really think the prayers they prayed standing were either less reverent or less pleasing to God?

Of course not, for I described several situations where it’s not possible to kneel. However, receiving the Blessed Sacrament should be one of those times to kneel.

 

[sancte_joseph]

If people think that kneeling or genufleting
is something cultural or something iinfluenced by the world…in other words if you think that kneeling depends upon the world at that time you are mistaken in my opinion…

But sadly it is becoming true when it should not…genufleting and kneeling should not be done away with because the world is different…that kinda sounds like pride…but if you kneel or genuflect just because you feel holier than other people than that is also pride…and self righteouness

—just my 2 cents—