An Archbishop Lefebvre Question

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Do you think that Archbishop Lefebvre was greatly responsible for keeping the TLM alive and (as recent history seems to prove) well desired by many of the faithful today? I have done some pointed research that leads me to believe, given the evidence that I have only read in print, that what he did may have actually been more helpful than harmful… considering the circumstances and powers that he was up against.

Any thoughts or comments that may educate me further in my research? Thanks
 
Do you think that Archbishop Lefebvre was greatly responsible for keeping the TLM alive and (as recent history seems to prove) well desired by many of the faithful today? I have done some pointed research that leads me to believe, given the evidence that I have only read in print, that what he did may have actually been more helpful than harmful… considering the circumstances and powers that he was up against.

Any thoughts or comments that may educate me further in my research? Thanks
Without the Archbishop, the Society of SSPX and a few sympathetic Bishops, the original indult most likely never would have been granted as there would have been no need to. They were pretty much the only ones who kept the Traditional Mass alive. The Traditional Mass would have been shelved and remembered only as a relic of ages past.

Just the way the progressives and reformers of the day wanted it to be,
 
Do you think that Archbishop Lefebvre was greatly responsible for keeping the TLM alive and (as recent history seems to prove) well desired by many of the faithful today? I have done some pointed research that leads me to believe, given the evidence that I have only read in print, that what he did may have actually been more helpful than harmful… considering the circumstances and powers that he was up against.

Any thoughts or comments that may educate me further in my research? Thanks
i do believe you are right on this. vatican II’s intentions were to do away with the tridentine mass altogether. there was a new mass in town and people were going to like it. what they werent counting on was lefebvres or else. piusX was founded i believe in 1970. i think a lot more people followed lefebvre than the catholic church initially thought they would. think about it, the mans was excommunicated because in his heart of hearts new that this novus ordo mass would cause more harm than good with the catholic church. and he was right. look at the division. it is all over this site. given enough time i think they expected people would just except this new mass, and piusX would die out.
this is why i believe the FSSP was approved and founded in 1988.
i also believe that carefully watching this faternity grow in priests, while the novus ordo was declining told the vatican that they had to do something if they wanted to keep attendance and convienant masses. example you can find a novus ordo mass within 10 min of your home is just about any small and large city. this is why i also feel i have to laugh (outloud) when people say they have to attend a church that is stripped because their parish is too poor. how about this? lets sell some churches drive 20min and build a church worthy of Christ to call home.
oops sorry…a rambpling tangent:o
anyway this is how i see how pius X saved the tridenine mass. could be wrong often am. love to be corrected if i am… i come here to learn, yes?
 
I have done some pointed research that leads me to believe, given the evidence that I have only read in print, that what he did may have actually been more helpful than harmful… considering the circumstances and powers that he was up against.
Archbishop Lefebvre got himself excommunicated for his disobedience. To whom was this “helpful?” Certainly not himself? And be careful of what you call the “powers that he was up against;” the Archbishop was excommunicated for disobedience against the pope and Canon law.
Any thoughts or comments that may educate me further in my research? Thanks
Consider that the FSSP was formed as a reaction against the Archbishop’s disobedience. Isn’t it odd that the SSPX, on their own website, suggest that no one have anything to do with the FSSP?
 
i do believe you are right on this. vatican II’s intentions were to do away with the tridentine mass altogether. there was a new mass in town and people were going to like it. what they werent counting on was lefebvres or else. piusX was founded i believe in 1970. i think a lot more people followed lefebvre than the catholic church initially thought they would. think about it, the mans was excommunicated because in his heart of hearts new that this novus ordo mass would cause more harm than good with the catholic church. and he was right. look at the division. it is all over this site. given enough time i think they expected people would just except this new mass, and piusX would die out.
this is why i believe the FSSP was approved and founded in 1988.
i also believe that carefully watching this faternity grow in priests, while the novus ordo was declining told the vatican that they had to do something if they wanted to keep attendance and convienant masses. example you can find a novus ordo mass within 10 min of your home is just about any small and large city. this is why i also feel i have to laugh (outloud) when people say they have to attend a church that is stripped because their parish is too poor. how about this? lets sell some churches drive 20min and build a church worthy of Christ to call home.
oops sorry…a rambpling tangent:o
anyway this is how i see how pius X saved the tridenine mass. could be wrong often am. love to be corrected if i am… i come here to learn, yes?
What a load of nonsense.
 
Archbishop Lefebvre got himself excommunicated for his disobedience.
Lefebvre and Cardinal Meyer were major players in preserving the Traditional Mass a long time before the excommunications. Most of their followers were branded and second-classed. Some of them ended up on the right side of JPII and some didn’t. Today most of them are on the right side of BVI. I’m not calling Lefebvre a saint, but he certainly is a champion to those who today enjoy attending the EF.
 
What a load of nonsense.
what part is nonsense? they did want a new mass. they didnt want the tridentine mass anymore.
Appointed by Pope John XXIII a member of the Central Preparatory Commission[42] for the Second Vatican Council, Lefebvre took part in the discussions about the draft documents to be submitted to the bishops for consideration at the Council.[43] During the first session of the Council (October to December 1962),[44] he became concerned about the direction the Council’s deliberations were taking.[4]On 29 June 1976, Lefebvre went ahead with planned priestly ordinations without the approval of the local Bishop and despite receiving letters from Rome forbidding them. As a result Lefebvre was suspended a collatione ordinum, i.e., forbidden to ordain any priests. A week later, the Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops informed him that, to have his situation regularized, he needed to ask the Pope’s pardon. Lefebvre responded with a letter claiming that the modernisation of the Church was a “compromise with the ideas of modern man” originating in a secret agreement between high dignitaries in the Church and senior Freemasons prior to the Council.
On 30 June 1988, Archbishop Lefebvre, with Bishop Emeritus Antônio de Castro Mayer of Campos, Brazil, as co-consecrator, consecrated four SSPX priests as bishops: Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson, Alfonso de Galarreta and Bernard Fellay. The next day, 1 July, the Congregation for Bishops issued a decree stating that this was a schismatic act and that all six people directly involved had thereby incurred automatic excommunication.[89]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Lefebvre#cite_note-88

On 2 July, Pope John Paul II condemned the consecration in his apostolic letter Ecclesia Dei, in which he stated that the consecration constituted a schismatic act and that by virtue of canon 1382 of the Code of Canon Law, [90] the bishops and priests involved were automatically excommunicated.[91]
Lefebvre declared that he and the other clerics involved had not “separated themselves from Rome” and were therefore not schismatic[92] and that they “found themselves in a case of necessity”, not having succeeded, as they said, in making “Rome” understand that “this change which has occurred in the Church” since the Second Vatican Council was “not Catholic”.[93] In a letter addressed to the four priests he was about to consecrate as bishops, Lefebvre wrote: “I do not think one can say that Rome has not lost the Faith.”[94]

pope benedict XVI for this reason lifted the excommunication.

as im sure you know the mass vatican II came up with was called “novus ordo” meaning new order… they took the tridentine mass and put it into “new order” and have been carelessly tinkering with it since. so the intention was to not have what we know now as the tridentine mass available anymore. “novus ordo” was the “new” tridentine. lefebvre continued the mass anyway.

Lefebvre was notified that, since he had not apologised to the Pope, he was suspended a divinis,[77] i.e., he could no longer legally administer any of the sacraments.[78] Lefebvre remarked that he had been forbidden from celebrating the new rite of Mass.[79] (This was clearly a joke,citation needed] but Pope Paul VI apparently took it seriously and stated that Lefebvre “thought he dodged the penalty by administering the sacraments using the previous formulas.”)[80] In spite of his suspension, Lefebvre continued to pray Mass and to administer the other Sacraments, including the conferral of Holy Orders to the students of his seminanary?

so how am i wrong?
 
Archbishop Lefebvre got himself excommunicated for his disobedience. To whom was this “helpful?” Certainly not himself?
Time will tell for Lefebvre. It was certainly helpful for the four he consecrated. During their censure they had a free hand to grow and develop the Society without the negative meddling of the Church. Now look at them. While the Novus Ordo is shriveling (vocations, Mass attendance and orthodoxy) tradition is flourishing. “By their fruits…”
And be careful of what you call the “powers that he was up against;” the Archbishop was excommunicated for disobedience against the pope and Canon law.
He was up against quite a bit. For the sake of souls he sacrificed his own. What other pope or bishop has done so recently for the sake of solid truth, not this wishy-washy ‘vatican double-speak’ we’ve been experiencing for almost 50 years. Think about it, and think about the fruits of these two sides again.
Consider that the FSSP was formed as a reaction against the Archbishop’s disobedience. Isn’t it odd that the SSPX, on their own website, suggest that no one have anything to do with the FSSP?
So you admit that the FSSP wouldn’t have come about without Lefebvre! For once, you and I agree! Without him, tradition would be totally foreign to just about every Catholic today.
 
Without the Archbishop, the Society of SSPX and a few sympathetic Bishops, the original indult most likely never would have been granted as there would have been no need to. They were pretty much the only ones who kept the Traditional Mass alive. The Traditional Mass would have been shelved and remembered only as a relic of ages past.

Just the way the progressives and reformers of the day wanted it to be,
Would you be so kind as to tell me who these progressives and reformers were?
 
Lefebvre and Cardinal Meyer were major players in preserving the Traditional Mass a long time before the excommunications. Most of their followers were branded and second-classed. Some of them ended up on the right side of JPII and some didn’t. Today most of them are on the right side of BVI. I’m not calling Lefebvre a saint, but he certainly is a champion to those who today enjoy attending the EF.
Certainly he is a champion to some attending the EF, but that is not the heart of the issue. I would bet that 99 out of 100 catholics have never heard of the Archbishop or the SSPX.
 
An open-ended comment. Can you demonstrate how on each point?
Must I? Is this enough?

On 2 July, Pope John Paul II condemned the consecration in his apostolic letter Ecclesia Dei, in which he stated that the consecration constituted a schismatic act and that by virtue of canon 1382 of the Code of Canon Law, [90] the bishops and priests involved were automatically excommunicated.[91]
Lefebvre declared that he and the other clerics involved had not “separated themselves from Rome” and were therefore not schismatic[92] and that they “found themselves in a case of necessity”, not having succeeded, as they said, in making “Rome” understand that “this change which has occurred in the Church” since the Second Vatican Council was “not Catholic”.[93] In a letter addressed to the four priests he was about to consecrate as bishops, Lefebvre wrote: “I do not think one can say that Rome has not lost the Faith.”[94]

**
“pope benedict XVI for this reason lifted the excommunication”. **

What we have here is an obvious copy and paste of determined facts with the final personal opinion “pope benedict XVI for this reason lifted the excommunication.” We all know that the lifting of the excommunications of the SSPX bishops is applicable only to those four still living and does not involve the Archbishop. In fact, since Pope Benedict lifted the excommunications instead of invalidating them as many here wanted shows that he himself regarded the excommunications as legal and valid. So where does that leave the Archbishop? Sadly, still excommunicated. Also, Pope Benedict lifted the excommunications as a generous offer of reconciliation to the SSPX.

So, the determination by the poster that "pope benedict XVI for this reason lifted the excommunication" is an erroneous call on her part. Her whole post is of the same caliber and scanning her latest post where freemasons is involved makes me a little less inclined to get involved in yet another will it go around in circles thread. But, alas, if you want more I’ll be happy to oblige.
 
as im sure you know the mass vatican II came up with was called “novus ordo” meaning new order… they took the tridentine mass and put it into “new order” and have been carelessly tinkering with it since. so the intention was to not have what we know now as the tridentine mass available anymore. “novus ordo” was the “new” tridentine. lefebvre continued the mass anyway.

so how am i wrong?
For the one millionth time, EVERY new edition of a missal is a “novus ordo.” Pope John XXIII’s missal was a “novus ordo” because it was a new order of the Mass from the previous published missal. The missal published in the 1950’s was a “novus ordo” since it replaced the one before it. When the new missal comes out (hopefully) soon it, too, will be a “novus ordo” because it will replace the current missal. You try to speak authoritatively about things you obviously know nothing about! Here’s one for you to ponder; Pope Pius V, in the apostolic letter Quo Primum that established the Tridenitine missal calls it “a NEW RITE!” In his words, “This new rite alone is to be used unless…” So what do we make of that? Is this “new rite” a break from tradition? Is it “new?” Is it no longer catholic?

The term “novus ordo” is NOT particular to any one missal, most especially the Missal of Pope Paul VI; like I said before, it is applicable to any new edition of the missal, be it the OF or the EF. If a new edition of the missal for the EF were to published it, too, would be a “novus ordo.” There is nothing protestant or sinister about it, only those who don’t understand what it means.
 
Time will tell for Lefebvre. It was certainly helpful for the four he consecrated. During their censure they had a free hand to grow and develop the Society without the negative meddling of the Church. Now look at them. While the Novus Ordo is shriveling (vocations, Mass attendance and orthodoxy) tradition is flourishing. “By their fruits…”
So, in your mind it is better to be suspended and excommunicated in order to have a “free hand to grow” without the “negative meddling of the Church?” That does not sound catholic to me at all. To be separated from the Church is to be separated from Christ. I am afraid that I cannot subscribe to your thought.
He was up against quite a bit. For the sake of souls he sacrificed his own. What other pope or bishop has done so recently for the sake of solid truth, not this wishy-washy ‘vatican double-speak’ we’ve been experiencing for almost 50 years. Think about it, and think about the fruits of these two sides again.
What does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul.” One would have to be the greatest fool in the world to “sacrifice” his own soul for the sake of anything else. Tell me, what is there in all of creation that you would sacrifice all of eternity with Jesus Christ for?
So you admit that the FSSP wouldn’t have come about without Lefebvre! For once, you and I agree! Without him, tradition would be totally foreign to just about every Catholic today.
I agree that the SSPX , while obedient, was a plus for the Church. When they went over the line even some of their own members found that it was too much to put themselves at odds with the pope and the Church. Hence, they humbled themselves to the pope and the FSSP was born. This is the way good catholics should behave, not as a band of renegades. Again, I am flabbergasted that you think it acceptable that one sacrifice his soul for others.
 
So, in your mind it is better to be suspended and excommunicated in order to have a “free hand to grow” without the “negative meddling of the Church?” That does not sound catholic to me at all. To be separated from the Church is to be separated from Christ. I am afraid that I cannot subscribe to your thought.
The Church for a long time falsely believed that they were outside of Her, and for that reason, although still within the Church, the SSPX was basically free of the meddling of clerics who thought the society was outside the Church and were glad about that ‘fact’. Although inside the Church, many falsely believed it to be outside, and therefore didn’t give them a second thought.
What does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul.” One would have to be the greatest fool in the world to “sacrifice” his own soul for the sake of anything else. Tell me, what is there in all of creation that you would sacrifice all of eternity with Jesus Christ for?
Ah, but he wasn’t ‘gaining the world’ and he wasn’t neglecting God. He was fishing for souls and being a true shepherd to the flocks. And in his mind, in his informed conscience, he believed he was doing the right thing. Even though JPII claimed that his canon law argument held no weight, there’s still that argument because canon law itself allows for it. He believed a certain situation was there, and although the pope says there isn’t, canon law still allows for him to hold his opinion. Just read 1323 and 1324 again.

Rome can say “you’re excommunicated”, but only God makes the judgement of heaven or hell. To Lefebvre he was doing the good and necessary work. God will judge him. Here below he is already being vindicated. Rome is attempting to mollify the SSPX, not so much the other way around. As I’ve said to you before, the lifting of the excomms was not only a matter of generosity, but also a matter of justice.
I agree that the SSPX , while obedient, was a plus for the Church. When they went over the line even some of their own members found that it was too much to put themselves at odds with the pope and the Church.
Not exactly. Some humbled themselves, some persevere, and some, who are afraid of the stigma that the words ‘schism’ and ‘excommunication’ bring couldn’t bear it.
Hence, they humbled themselves to the pope and the FSSP was born. This is the way good catholics should behave, not as a band of renegades. Again, I am flabbergasted that you think it acceptable that one sacrifice his soul for others.
“Good Catholics” should simply do the will of God, and there are plenty inside and outside of the SSPX. Do you so liberally label the questionable, unorthodox priests who implemented things in the liturgy not proscribed by VII and the GIRM as ‘renegades’? Do you not shy away from their churches even though they are “clearly” “in communion” with Rome? I don’t know about you, but I certainly stay away. As a matter of fact, my upbringing in the Church was such that once I found traditional Mass locations, I never went back to the NO. I have so much love for the traditional way of life, and that type of thing is just about impossible to find in the NO. Lots of abuses, not a lot of Catholicism preached, not a whole lot of uniformity of belief among the believers (she uses birth control, but this other one doesn’t, but she believes in a woman’s right to ‘choose’, etc), little or no community among the faithful etc…Out of love for the TLM I just stick to it pretty much wherever I find it (although I wouldn’t visit the sedes).
 
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