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hasantas
Guest
I placed emphasis on that very clearly but I think you ignore. I do not speak from philosophers but from revelation(Qur’an). Philosophers may have very fantastic thoughts but they cannot take place of revelation.
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hasantas
Guest
One mind and one will and one power and one life and one wisdom … but three persons!
Is that logical?Church has made new statements and additions into Trinity doctrines in history. Is that infallible? And there are many issues by which Church is not infallible!
Faith cannot be explained and reasoned by mystery.
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reggieM
Guest
Joining late and I haven’t read everything so I apologize if this was already mentioned, but Jesus referred to Psalm 82 “you are gods” and followed:
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steve_b
Guest
That’s because Islam doesn’t see God as “Father”.
Which He does. The Father identifying His Son from 3 Gospels
The Transfiguration
Matthew 17:
1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli′jah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli′jah.”a] 5 He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son,(“Matthew 17 RSVCE - The Transfiguration - And after six - Bible Gateway”)] with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”** 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces, and were filled with awe. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
Mark 9:
17 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli′jah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli′jah.”a] 5 He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son,(“Matthew 17 RSVCE - The Transfiguration - And after six - Bible Gateway”)] with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”** 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces, and were filled with awe. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
Luke 9:
28 Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And as he was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. 30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli′jah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep but kept awake, and they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. 33 And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli′jah”—not knowing what he said. 34 As he said this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen;a] listen to him!” 36 And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silence and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.
In Genesis, Genesis 1:26
God said let “us” make man in “our” image.
Who is God referring to when He says “us” and “our”?
Look at the 25 verses before that. Full Chapter
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Vico
Guest
When God reveals a truth that we have great difficulty grasping intellectually, but maybe only intuitively, it is called a mystery, but also because it is a mystery because it was not revealed earlier and then is.One mind and one will and one power and one life and one wisdom … but three persons!
Church has made new statements and additions into Trinity doctrines in history. Is that infallible? And there are many issues by which Church is not infallible!
Faith cannot be explained and reasoned by mystery.
About reason: yes it is reasonable that “everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship.”
The dogmas of faith are infallible. The revelation is complete, but dogma is defined without contradiction through time.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
**To the OP. **No Catholic believes that “Allah had a son” from carnal relations, or in a way that is subject to time and space. this I believe is where the Quran speaks against the Arian heresy which Quran interpreters make the mistake of thinking the Quran is addressing the True One Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith in the Word of God, who is the ETERNAL ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
Mistakenly, the poster Hasantas thinks the Quran, he/she quotes from, is addressing the Catholic faith in the only eternal begotten Son of God. I have to give the Quran credit, it does attack the Heretical Eastern Christian (Arian) heresy of it’s day. The Quran also has a heretical trinity explained (Mary, Jesus and Allah) which is never Catholic, and attacks a heretical son of god which is never Catholic. Something to consider in your arguments. Beware when you are arguing from the Quran and not a Muslims misinformed understanding of the Catholic faith. Here, the Quran is still in it’s infancy stage compared to the Apostolic faith.
I believe you make a sound argument. The Quran appears to teach that “Allah and His word” are divided or the word that “Allah” directed to Mary is small cased in Hanna’s Quran’s quote, thereby supports your argumrnt, when “Allah” 's word that is directed to Mary is never eternal, yet you argue a contradiction of the tawhid, which Muslims profess "that the Quran has always existed in heaven, which co-exist with “Allah”.
If the Quran “always existed in heaven”, then that word = Quran would be Allah, because it comes from Allah. But if the Quran did not coexist with Allah or never existed in heaven, then the Quran does not come from Allah or the Quran is never eternal.
A word of caution, “no pun intended”, When ever one reasonably exposes a contradiction or reasonable argument against the Quran. Your opponent will almost always question your understanding of the Quran or a Muslim’s interpretation of the Quran, and your opponent will one hundred percent, begin to raise a Muslims misconceptions of your faith, (as hasantas has; against an unknown trinity and an unknown son of god, which Catholics do not believe in) without giving you a reasonable response to your question.
Peace be with you
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hasantas
Guest
There is no a “true Trinity”. Trinity is doctrine of people but not from God.
Quran reject all kinds of Trinity(Shirk) that include what you call true trinity! Yes Quran(God) disconfirm that Arian heresy and also the doctrine of Church:
79- It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, “Be servants to me rather than Allah,” but [instead, he would say], “Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied.”
80- Nor could he order you to take the angels and prophets as lords. Would he order you to disbelief after you had been Muslims? Al-Imran(3)
angel is Holy Spirit and prophet is Jesus. So God reject the true trinity!?
Did not Jesus say be pious scholars of the Lord ? Or did Jesus say worship me?
There is no any heresy is Quran because Quran is directly from God. Quran is not creature means that the meaning of Quran is word of God. God created that meaning in Arabic. So Arabic words and book is creatue but that meaning is eternal.
Your thoughts are like Mu’tazilah. They think Quran is creature but Quran is eternal word of God. Ofcourse that words in Arabic are creature as Jesus in body is creature. God do not transform into time and material but God create time and matter. So eternal essence of God did not transform into matter or assume. But God created body and soul of Jesus. That is tawhid which was taught through Torah and Bible.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Who say’s so? Did God reveal this, or is it just a self claim to deny the Trinity?
I disagree with you. The Quran never rejects a true Trinity which the Catholic Church profess’s. The Quran you quote from only rejects and reveals a heretical trinity.
Can you show me where the Quran rejects the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as One God in Trinity procession giving divine revelation. Then we can have a true discussion from the Quran. Thus far, your argument against the True Trinity comes from men not God or the Quran.
I reject your trinity and agree with you, when you have an “angel is Holy Spirit”. God does not and cannot reject His divine revelation from His voice (Father) His Word (Son) and His Love (Holy Spirit).
Where in the Quran does it record Allah rejecting Love or rejecting His Son?
You appear to be forcing human knowledge and understanding with the eternal divine revelation which is a contradiction. The Word of God made flesh accepted worship from His disciples and apostles, but Jesus never demands worship from no one, as the Quran has Muhammad demanding worship to Allah and His prophets.
You proclaim a faith in the Quran as the word of God. Yet you deny the Word of God as being eternal and living. What comes from God is God. Yet you deny the Word of God as being God.
You speak good words here. But you have not proven that the Quran is eternal word of God.
I agree, the Essence of God does not take on human form. But the Word of God became flesh which veiled God’s Essence in His Presence. I call your attention to the burning bush example when God revealed His Presence to Moses and not transform His Essence into the burning bush.
Divine revelation reveals. In the beginning was Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God, all things came into being through the Word, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We do agree that Jesus was born in the flesh from the Virgin Mary. Although the Word of God is eternal and took on flesh in space and time for our sake.
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Vico
Guest
Sometimes Jesus Christ spoke from human view and others times the divine. Yes Jesus said he is God, and spoke of the Trinity.
John 20:28-29
28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.
29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.
John 8:54-58
54 Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God.
55 And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him, and do keep his word.
56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.
57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
Exodus 3:14
14 God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.
Isaiah 9
6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.
7 His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom; to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and for ever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Revelation 1
17 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last,
18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.
Matt 28:19
19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 17:5
5 And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him.
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Latias
Guest
Muslims like to criticizes Christians for believing in the trinity, more specifically, two other co-eternal entities existing alongside with the Father. But a perceptive Christian can retaliate by pointing out that the notion that the Quran (more precisely the meaning or semantics of the Quran) is uncreated implies that it exists co-eternal with Allah.
So either the Quran is co-eternal with God, or that it was created. I suppose you evade this by saying that only creatures (or physical objects) can be created, but the Quran comes from the same substance of God (although contemporary orthodox Christians claim this about Jesus being homoousios, the same substance, to the Father), so it does not violate this. It would thus seem that the Quran is God, which is a nod to either pantheism. panentheism, or Spinozism.
Perhaps, a Muslim would argue that it is unreasonable to say that a different person can be regarded as being homoousios to another. I don’t know if one who subscribes to Thomistic metaphysics would claim that identical twins would share the same substance, since their identical genetic code would ensure immense phenotypic similarity.
It does not seem that hard to understand, since Christians regard Christ to be the Word or Logos, but Christ is a creature.
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hasantas
Guest
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
28 ¶ And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mark 12
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
28 ¶ And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mark 12
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