An Eastern Tradition: Reduction of Penance and Sufferage

[Vico]

This is a continuation from Eastern Catholicism – The Orthodox and the Hail Mary

The Oriental Tradition is generally more penitential than the Eastern Tradition. As others have noted, a priest giving penance after confession does not seem to be the norm in the Eastern Tradition (though it can occur), but it is the norm in the Oriental and Western Traditions.

The similarities between the Western and Oriental teaching on Penance are:

1. It is done by an individual to make up for the damage of sin committed to one’s soul.
2. The Grace of one’s penitential acts can be applied for the benefit of others, both in this life and the next.

The differences between the Western and Oriental teaching on Penance are:

1. In the Oriental Tradition, it is not done to satisfy the Justice of God, but simply for increase in holiness (i.e., theosis). It should be noted that in the Western Tradition, acts for increase in holiness are themselves regarded as satisfaction for the Justice of God.
2. The Oriental Churches do not have an ecclesiastical system that claims to have the power to apply the Grace of penitential acts to others - this is left in God’s hands alone.

I personally do not believe that these distinctions warrant disunity. They are all sides of the same multi-faceted coin. A problem would only exist if one seeks to impose one Tradition over and above any other Tradition.

Blessings,
Marduk

Marduk, you said “2) The Oriental Churches do not have an ecclesiastical system that claims to have the power to apply the Grace of penitential acts to others - this is left in God’s hands alone.”

The reduction of penance and sufferage for the dead, by the Church is tradition in the Eastern Churches, yet is named as indulgences by the Latin Church. This can be explained with a few references.

1. The faithful are one Church:

NAB 1 Cor 12:12-13:
“12 As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.
13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.”

1. That the faithful pray to God to obtain mercy for the dead, by which the the dead are greatly helped.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (ca. 313 – 386) wrote, in Catechesis 23, mystag. 5, 9; 10: “We then pray for our deceased holy fathers and bishops, and in general for all among us who departed this life, believing as we do that those souls, for whom prayers are offered, while the sacred and most venerable victim lies before us, will be most greatly helped.” … “In the same way sinners, do not merely weave a wreath, but we present to God Christ victimized for our sins, striving to obtain from his mercy favor and propitiation both for them and for ourselves.”
– J.P. Migne, ed., Patroligia Greaca (Paris, 1867-1866) 33, 1115, 1118.

1. That the Church has the power to reduce the time of penance of the faithful.

Saint Basil the Great of Caesarea (330 – January 1, 379) states, in Epistle 217, canonica 3, 74: “Yet if any of those who have fallen into the above-mentioned sins should show himself earnest in doing penance, he who by God’s mercy has been given the power to loose and to bind will not be deserving of censure if, because of the extordinary penance already performed by the sinner, he should exercise clemency and shorten the time of the penance. For, what is narrated in the Scriptuers teaches us that those who give themselves with greateer intensity to penance quickly receive the mercy of God.”
– J.P. Migne, ed., Patroligia Greaca (Paris, 1867-1866) 32, 803.

Therefore the Church has the power to reduce penance for sins already forgiven, for the faithful (both living and dead), which is for our healing that we become more Christlike (theosis).

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Vico,

Thank you for your quotes, but TBH, I don’t see anything in them that contradicts what I’ve written.

But to be more concise, the Oriental teaching on penance does not involve the concept of “Treasury of merits.” The Church can certainly reduce my penance in an act of indulgence or oikonomia**. All I am saying is that the Oriental Tradition does not have a legal system of Merits, whereby my own Merit can be applied to another for the sake of penal satisfaction.

I am not saying that the idea of Merits is heterodox or unbiblical, and therefore incompatible with the Oriental Tradition (in fact, I personally see in the system of Merits the biblical teaching that to those who have, more will be given). I am simply saying that it is not part of the Oriental Tradition.

** The Latin teaching on indulgences and the Oriental teaching on oikonomia are somewhat analogous. In both instances, a lessening of temporal punishment can occur as a result of penitential acts of contrition. But the teaching on oikonomia only applies to this world, not the life hereafter.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Vico]

…All I am saying is that the Oriental Tradition does not have a legal system of Merits, whereby my own Merit can be applied to another for the sake of penal satisfaction.
… But the teaching on oikonomia only applies to this world, not the life hereafter.
…

Yes, I agree that there is no “legal system of Merits” in the Oriental Tradition. I did not mention merits because it is not part of the dogmatic constitution of the Catholic Church, but doctrine. Doctrine can vary in the particular Churches.

What I describe is an ancient practice that cannot, for the reason you mention, be called oikonomia. As Saint Cyril of Jerusalem states, the faithful asleep in Christ, can be greatly helped by their brothers and sisters in Christ, which is the Church. The dogmatic constitution states that the Church can issues indulgences and that they are effective. The word used by Saint Cyril is “propitiation” which when done through the action of The Pope, corresponds to “indulgence” so it does not have to be viewed as a “Latinization”. Only The Pope can authorize indulgences per Norm 5 of the “Enchiridion Indulgentiarum: Normae et Concessiones.”

Pope Benedict granted plenary indulgences to the priests and the faithful during the Year for Priests, June 19, 2009 to June 19, 2010. These apply to all the particular Churches.

Byzantine Catholic Church USA, Year For Priests:

archeparchy.org/yfp/yfpHome.html

There is a Year For Priests talk by **His Beatitude Lubomyr **on the UGCC site:

ugcc.org.ua/505.0.html?&L=2

UGCC: Prayer and fasting in YFP.

stjosaphateparchy.org/yphome.html

In the Holy Year of the Millenium (Christmas Eve 1999 to Epiphany 2001) the Holy Father declared that plenary indulgences could be received for visiting certain pilgrimage churches in Rome and at pilgrimage churches designated by bishops in their eparchy. Bishop Andrew Pataki, of the Byzantine Catholic Church, declared the Basilian Monastery in Matawan NJ, and Cathedral of St. Michael the Archangel in Passaic NJ, as pilgrimage sites for the eparchy of Passaic.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Vico,

I think we’re on the same page. Nothing you’ve written here contradicts what I stated, unless you can point out some particulars.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Vico]

Dear brother Vico,

I think we’re on the same page. Nothing you’ve written here contradicts what I stated, unless you can point out some particulars.

Blessings,
Marduk

Consider this statement:

“2) The Oriental Churches do not have an ecclesiastical system that claims to have the power to apply the Grace of penitential acts to others - this is left in God’s hands alone.”

So the Oriental Churches do not have such a system as described within their particular Churches, they do have it as members of the universal Church.

Since each particular Church belongs to the Catholic Church, it shares the universal portion in common: the same faith, sacraments, and The Pope (and portions of the Roman Curia). Yet each particular Church has different traditions, laws, government, liturgical rites, and doctrines.

The dogmas for indulgences are part of the common faith, as well as the Patriarch of Rome, when he is not acting solely as the head of the Latin Church. So in that sense, the Oriental Churches do have a shared ecclesiastical system that claims to have the power to apply the Grace of penitential acts to others. But also that power to grant indulgences is of Christ through the See of Peter, as it is defined.

 

[malphono]

And around and around we go …:hypno:

 

[michaeldaniels]

Isn’t Suffrage the right to vote? I don’t even think “sufferage” is a real word

 

[jimmy]

This is a continuation from Eastern Catholicism – The Orthodox and the Hail Mary

Marduk, you said “2) The Oriental Churches do not have an ecclesiastical system that claims to have the power to apply the Grace of penitential acts to others - this is left in God’s hands alone.”

The reduction of penance and sufferage for the dead, by the Church is tradition in the Eastern Churches, yet is named as indulgences by the Latin Church. This can be explained with a few references.

1. The faithful are one Church:

NAB 1 Cor 12:12-13:
“12 As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.
13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.”

1. That the faithful pray to God to obtain mercy for the dead, by which the the dead are greatly helped.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (ca. 313 – 386) wrote, in Catechesis 23, mystag. 5, 9; 10: “We then pray for our deceased holy fathers and bishops, and in general for all among us who departed this life, believing as we do that those souls, for whom prayers are offered, while the sacred and most venerable victim lies before us, will be most greatly helped.” … “In the same way sinners, do not merely weave a wreath, but we present to God Christ victimized for our sins, striving to obtain from his mercy favor and propitiation both for them and for ourselves.”
– J.P. Migne, ed., Patroligia Greaca (Paris, 1867-1866) 33, 1115, 1118.

1. That the Church has the power to reduce the time of penance of the faithful.

Saint Basil the Great of Caesarea (330 – January 1, 379) states, in Epistle 217, canonica 3, 74: “Yet if any of those who have fallen into the above-mentioned sins should show himself earnest in doing penance, he who by God’s mercy has been given the power to loose and to bind will not be deserving of censure if, because of the extordinary penance already performed by the sinner, he should exercise clemency and shorten the time of the penance. For, what is narrated in the Scriptuers teaches us that those who give themselves with greateer intensity to penance quickly receive the mercy of God.”
– J.P. Migne, ed., Patroligia Greaca (Paris, 1867-1866) 32, 803.

Therefore the Church has the power to reduce penance for sins already forgiven, for the faithful (both living and dead), which is for our healing that we become more Christlike (theosis).

Your number 3 assumes the tradition that penance is offered to satisfy the justice of God. St. Basil doesn’t assume this in the quote you give. All Basil assumes is that the person is actually repentant and willing to do what is necessary, and since this is the case the penance might be shortened.

I disagree with mardukm’s assertion that the Eastern tradition is less penitential. It might not require penance after confession of sins but that doesn’t make it less penitential. The whole spiritual tradition of the Eastern tradition is penitential in character. Take for example the fasting and prayer tradition. These are specifically for the purpose of the transformation of the heart and submission to the will of God. But its character would be more in line with the Oriental tradition as mardukm explained it when he pointed out that penitence is for the purpose of increasing holiness and theosis.

 

[Vico]

Isn’t Suffrage the right to vote? I don’t even think “sufferage” is a real word

Ha! Ha! I can’t spell. Meaning 1 below.

Meriam-Webster
suffrage
1 : a short intercessory prayer usually in a series
2 : a vote given in deciding a controverted question or electing a person for an office or trust
3 : the right of voting : franchise; also : the exercise of such right

 

[michaeldaniels]

LOL…I was like…hey, I think I know that word

Ha! Ha! I can’t spell. Meaning 1 below.

Meriam-Webster
suffrage
1 : a short intercessory prayer usually in a series
2 : a vote given in deciding a controverted question or electing a person for an office or trust
3 : the right of voting : franchise; also : the exercise of such right

 

[jimmy]

In Deuteronomy God tells Moses that he is going to destroy Israel because they have abanoned him and he will raise up a new people for Moses to lead. But Moses pleaded that if God condemn Israel, that He also condemn him. It was for Moses’s sake that God did not condemn Israel. My interpretation is that God will save the just man, even if it includes saviing the unjust man as well (not that He doesn’t want the unust to be saved). Moses associated himself with the unjust Israelites and offered himself with them

The story of Abraham pleading for sodom and gomorrah in Genesis 18 I think is a good illustration of the relationship between the just and the unjust. God will not destroy the unjust for the sake of the just. The point was that if Abraham for find five just men in sodom and gomorrah, God would not destroy these cities for the sake of these just men.

Similarly the Church can pray to God for mercy for the sinner. God will save the sinner for the sake of the just. It isn’t about transfering the merits of the saint to the sinner, but of association of the saint with the sinner.

These are just my thoughts on it. I haven’t gotten any of this from anyone, even though some of what I said might be the result of certain eastern Chistian concepts.

 

[Vico]

Your number 3 assumes the tradition that penance is offered to satisfy the justice of God. St. Basil doesn’t assume this in the quote you give. All Basil assumes is that the person is actually repentant and willing to do what is necessary, and since this is the case the penance might be shortened.
…

Note that quote 3 pertains to the living faithful, and 2 to the dead faithful.

“3. That the Church has the power to reduce the time of penance of the faithful.”

I do not assume that it is “to satisfy the justice of God”. It is only reduction of penance, whatever that is for, however I summarized that it is for our healing:

“Therefore the Church has the power to reduce penance for sins already forgiven, for the faithful (both living and dead), which is for our healing that we become more Christlike (theosis).”

 

[Vico]

And around and around we go …:hypno:

You see nothing constructive here?

 

[jimmy]

Note that quote 3 pertains to the living faithful, and 2 to the dead faithful.

“3. That the Church has the power to reduce the time of penance of the faithful.”

I do not assume that it is “to satisfy the justice of God”. It is only reduction of penance, whatever that is for, however I summarized that it is for our healing:

“Therefore the Church has the power to reduce penance for sins already forgiven, for the faithful (both living and dead), which is for our healing that we become more Christlike (theosis).”

What do you mean by penance for sins already forgiven? Is this penance simply for the purpose of cleansing of the imperfections that are the result of a life of sin? Or is it a form of retributive justice, in which there must be punishment for the sin?

All apostolic traditions agree that prayers for the dead are efficaceous. The question is how do these prayers affect the dead. I think it is generally true to all the eastern traditions that they remain silent on the how and accept that prayers do help. The Latin tradition as I understand it though is based on the concept of retributive justice. This underlies its view of penance and purgatory. Those in purgatory aren’t simply being cleansed of imperfections, they are suffering the punishment for venial sins and for those sins that have been forgiven in this life. The Church though can pray for those in purgatory and through these prayers this retributive penance is releived.

 

[malphono]

You see nothing constructive here?

What I see is a reversion to the thought that, if x, y, or z is not specified in the Tradition of a Particular Church but is specified by Rome, the position of Rome is “universal” and that’s that. There are many things in the Orient and East that are assumed and/or simply expressed differently.

For example, we have this business of indulgences. As I said early on in the other thread, I have no problem with the Latin concept (“dogma” if you prefer) of indulgences, insofar as the Latin Church is concerned and insofar as it (a) is consistent with the Latin teaching on Purgatory and (b) is consistent with Latin theological constructs. Where I do have a problem is the attempt to translate those matters to the Orient (and, by extension, the East). Another poster put it quite well:

It might not require penance after confession of sins but that doesn’t make it less penitential. The whole spiritual tradition of the Eastern tradition is penitential in character. Take for example the fasting and prayer tradition. These are specifically for the purpose of the transformation of the heart and submission to the will of God. But its character would be more in line with the Oriental tradition as mardukm explained it when he pointed out that penitence is for the purpose of increasing holiness and theosis.

Taking the non-Latin view, (plus the non-Latin view of Purgatory which is really more consistent with the idea of the “Bosom of Abraham” than it is with “trial by fire”), indulgence is but a word. The Latin concept just does not mesh with it. But because the word “indulgence” itself is not used, apparently some believe that the Latin explanation applies by default.

 

[Vico]

What do you mean by penance for sins already forgiven? Is this penance simply for the purpose of cleansing of the imperfections that are the result of a life of sin? Or is it a form of retributive justice, in which there must be punishment for the sin?

All apostolic traditions agree that prayers for the dead are efficaceous. The question is how do these prayers affect the dead. I think it is generally true to all the eastern traditions that they remain silent on the how and accept that prayers do help. The Latin tradition as I understand it though is based on the concept of retributive justice. This underlies its view of penance and purgatory. Those in purgatory aren’t simply being cleansed of imperfections, they are suffering the punishment for venial sins and for those sins that have been forgiven in this life. The Church though can pray for those in purgatory and through these prayers this retributive penance is releived.

I do not say how these prayers work either. I mean penance in whatever way Saint Basil meant it, it is not significant to my presentation. The basis of my remarks is unity of dogma. The dogma does not requrie belief in a doctrine specific to a tradition. For example the dogma pertaining to indulgences from the Council of Trent is:

“… the sacred holy Synod teaches and enjoins that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and it condemns with anathema those who either assert that they are useless, or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them.”

---

I am not including purgatory in my comments since it is not relevant. And besides, item 5 of 33 articles of The Union of Brest states:

“We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.”

 

[Vico]

…
Taking the non-Latin view, (plus the non-Latin view of Purgatory which is really more consistent with the idea of the “Bosom of Abraham” than it is with “trial by fire”), indulgence is but a word. …

However “indulgence” has a meaning pertinant to the tradition of the Eastern Churches, as explained with items 1, 2, 3, in the earlier post. It is the Church deemed reduction of penance (for the living) and intercessions (for the dead), in the proper acts of the faithful of the Church with that intention.

See the other post for the inulgence dogma.

 

[malphono]

However “indulgence” has a meaning pertinant to the tradition of the Eastern Churches, as explained with items 1, 2, 3, in the earlier post. It is the Church deemed reduction of penance (for the living) and intercessions (for the dead), in the proper acts of the faithful of the Church with that intention.

See the other post for the inulgence dogma.

Yes, I read that. And as I said in an earlier [post=6273556]post[/post]: around and around we go …:hypno:

 

[Vico]

Yes, I read that. And as I said in an earlier [post=6273556]post[/post]: around and around we go …:hypno:

What do you mean by “around and around we go”?

 

[malphono]

What do you mean by “around and around we go”?

:banghead: To avoid repetition, I’ll just refer to a previous [post=6274322]post[/post].