An emptier Hell than most believe?

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So how would you have made sense of God’s love, God’s justice, and God’s mercy had you lived as a Christian prior to the doctrine of purgatory being developed in the West? In other words, if belief in purgatory were not a viable option for you, would your belief system totter?

Feel free to think outside the box, bun or current millennium. 🙂

Thoughtfully,
Mick
👍
Mick,
It’s not necessary to imagine what our belief system would have been like before the development of the doctrine of purgatory in the west because it has been a part of Catholic doctrine from the beginning. 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32. In fact the idea of final purification predates Christianity in early Jewish belief. 2 Macc. 12:41–45.Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

It wasn’t until the 16th century that the doctrine of purgatory was discarded in the Protestant reformation by non Catholics, but I guess that’s what happens when you base your belief system on the idea’s of an errant German Monk. Catholics always have, and continue to hold this doctrine.
 
Mick,
It’s not necessary to imagine what our belief system would have been like before the development of the doctrine of purgatory in the west because it has been a part of Catholic doctrine from the beginning. 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32. In fact the idea of final purification predates Christianity in early Jewish belief. 2 Macc. 12:41–45.Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

It wasn’t until the 16th century that the doctrine of purgatory was discarded in the Protestant reformation by non Catholics, but I guess that’s what happens when you base your belief system on the idea’s of an errant German Monk. Catholics always have, and continue to hold this doctrine.
Yes, it’s probably unwise for me to invite a Catholic to speculate upon the mindset of Christians prior to the doctrine being developed and formally defined in the West.

Well, I’m outa here. I enjoyed participating in this forum. 🙂

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
No, I certainly wouldn’t.
(Sorry for not replying until now. Work and family kept me away.)

No, neither would I, Mick! Now let’s say the answer is, “It is patient, it is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. It does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. It never fails.”

This answer is similar to, “It is red, it is white, it is blue,” the question for which was, “What are kinds of color?” and not, “What is color itself?”

Therefore, the question to the former answer is not, “What is love itself?” but must instead be, “What are kinds of love?” I think that’s true, don’t you?
 
Can that understanding be used to advantage?
It can, if we use it to give us an advantage in discovering the truth!

😃

At the moment, the truthful advantage it gives is to show that even though all forgiveness is love, not all love is forgiveness.

🙂
 
… Can’t altogether blame them, though, huh? …
No Mick, I cannot–at least not without blaming myself, too! I’d say folks like Ryan and others are kindred spirits to myself, for they are not afraid of wonder, as Socrates said,

For wonder is the feeling of a philosopher, and philosophy begins in wonder.

(Theaetetus, 155)

If one loses the child-like feeling of wonder, is it any wonder when such a one eventually loses the truth?
 
… So how would you have made sense of God’s love, God’s justice, and God’s mercy had you lived as a Christian prior to the doctrine of purgatory being developed in the West? In other words, if belief in purgatory were not a viable option for you, would your belief system totter?

Feel free to think outside the box, bun or current millennium. 🙂

Thoughtfully,
Mick
👍
Are you asking if it is possible for God to be a loving God without a Purgatory? Or are you asking how I used to rationalize that God was loving when I believed there was no Purgatory? Or are you asking how Monotheists could possibly believe God to be loving prior to His revealing the idea of Purgatory? Or are you asking something completely different?

😃
 
Section Two
Chapter Three
Article 12
1020 through 1065
The Roman Catholic Catechism

This part of the catechism which you should already have, explains heaven, hell, purgatory and then some.

1020 "The Christian who unites his own death to that of Jesus views it as a step towards him and an entrance into everlasting life. When the Church for the last time speaks Christ’s words of pardon and absolution over the dying Christian, seals him for the last time with a strengthening anointing, and gives him Christ in viaticum as nourishment for the journey, she speaks with gentle assurance:
Go forth, Christian soul, from this world
in the name of God the almighty Father,
who created you,
in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God,
who suffered for you,
in the name of the Holy Spirit,
who was poured out upon you.
Go forth, faithful Christian!

May you live in peace this day,
may your home be with God in Zion,
with Mary, the virgin Mother of God,
with Joseph, and all the angels and saints. . . .

May you return to [your Creator]
who formed you from the dust of the earth.
May holy Mary, the angels, and all the saints
come to meet you as you go forth from this life. . . .
May you see your Redeemer face to face. 591"

God Bless.🙂
 
One more thng:
“Lately I have come to wrestle with the idea of a Hell much emptier than most consider. . .”

Honestly, this is just my opinion, but when we begin to think in this manner it is very close to the idea that some people have that the satan does not exist. Satan and the work he profers is very insidious.

To me, this is somewhat like the thought that hell is not too crowded. If one thinks this situation through to it’s logical conclusion then one may agree that this is a very naive belief. I once thought this myself and after I became a Christian, I realized that many of my preconceptions regarding hell and devil were his work in deceiving me and making me believe the most apparently harmless lies were true. Satan is an expert an making people believe he does not exist.

Do not be decieved, hell and what gets us there is a very serious matter. God’s judgment is meted out to those who are disobedient or who carry erroneous beliefs regarding serious matters and act upon them.

Even though I was reborn when was baptised, I still have had to suffer the consequences of my former life. No matter how contrite we are, we still must face te consequences of our sins. God is mericiful in allowing us to do this while we are still alive. Being judged is His mercy as well as the fact that he lightens the judgement according to our faith and according to our acts of penance. Even though my sins are washed away, God in His love for me has seen fit to correct me.

As a new Christian (3 years) I can safely say that God has corrected me and has been merciful and more gentle than I deserve in His correction.

Having experienced both sides of the coin, correction and grace, I can tell you that it is wonderful and a blessed existence to have this kind of mercy allowed me. It is the greatest of blessings that God has chosen to receive me into His church by which I never would have come had it not been for the blessings of the Holy Spirit and the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

By the way, I came to the Cathiolic Church after 30 years of Buddhism of my own choice by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and not by the hand of any mortal person except for the priest that first blessed me in the Holy Spirit, a moment I shall never forget.

God Bless.🙂
 
If you read this from Saint Leonard of Port Maurice you’d get the idea that the opposite is true, and it’s Heaven that is emptier than most believe.
 
If you read this from Saint Leonard of Port Maurice you’d get the idea that the opposite is true, and it’s Heaven that is emptier than most believe.
Really? Out of 33,000, only 2 (a canonized saint and a holy man) go to Heaven directly and only 3 (Who still had to be pretty good, I’m guessing) go to Purgatory?

This strikes me as contrary to God’s Mercy. 5 out of 33,000? What would be the point in trying then, because I know that at the rate I am going, no matter how much I sincerely repent, I’d never be close to being worthy of canonization. And since it seems that to get into at least Purgatory one has to be nearly worthy of canonization, I’m basically doomed to Hell no matter what I do.
 
Really? Out of 33,000, only 2 (a canonized saint and a holy man) go to Heaven directly and only 3 (Who still had to be pretty good, I’m guessing) go to Purgatory?

This strikes me as contrary to God’s Mercy. 5 out of 33,000? What would be the point in trying then, because I know that at the rate I am going, no matter how much I sincerely repent, I’d never be close to being worthy of canonization. And since it seems that to get into at least Purgatory one has to be nearly worthy of canonization, I’m basically doomed to Hell no matter what I do.
To get into purgatory requires one to die in a state of Grace without unrepentant mortal sin at death.

That link was not a meant as a reason for despair, but for the gravity with which we should treat our own salvation.

I think the point of the message is that we need to take our salvation more serious than a heart attack. The way I took that message is it is a call to a true and deep conversion. It is a call to put away things that don’t lead to salvation, and replace them with things that do. That’s why I don’t listen to voices that claim hell is emptier than most believe because the truth is no one but God knows.

Our hope rests in the infinite mercy of Jesus, and the fact that He wants us with Him forever far more than we could ever want it for our selves. God’s grace is sufficient for salvation, and the means necessary exist within the Church for our salvation. We have the fullness of God’s help through the Sacraments. If we fall into mortal sin then we get to confession as soon as possible, and get right back up again. God knows our legs are unsteady on this journey. Jesus fell three times so that when we fall we can get back up again. We’re not in this alone. Two major helps today along with frequent confession, and reception of the Eucharist are the Rosary, and Chaplet of Divine Mercy.

Click on the fifteen promises of the Rosary in my signature if you aren’t currently saying a daily Rosary.
 
That link was not a meant as a reason for despair, but for the gravity with which we should treat our own salvation.
What you meant (and Saint Leonard of Port Maurice), I think, is irrelevant - if only one in thousands are saved, then despair is the natural and probable consequence. Think about it, your odds of winning the lottery are almost better than receiving eternal life. If you try really hard, and really try to avoid sin - but fail and still go to confession - you are still likely to be in the many thousands to be damned because your choices and your behavior were not good enough. You can be in the position of honestly trying, and still going to Hell; in fact, that is extremely likely. Under this view, only people who actually lives the lives characterized by the saints themselves (recognized or not) are saved; everyone else, even priests are damned. St. Leonard said so himself in that link you posted - most priests are damned.

If that is the case, then most people are going to cast aside trying to live righteously and cast themselves headlong into evil and hedonism. Why not, when salvation is essentially next to impossible even in the view of Christ’s infinite mercy? The choice appears to be: Live the life of one of the rare great saints, or burn in Hell.

I cannot prove that St. Leonard is wrong. If it is the Truth, then I am truly sad. And fearful for my own salvation, and that of my wife and daughters, because Lord knows we are not perfect even though we try to do the right thing. I should expect us all to go to Hell, or at best one to be saved. How sad, when I look at my beautiful little girls playing in the bluebonnet fields, that St. Leonard would consider that if they live to adulthood they will in all probability burn in the everlasting fires of Hell.

While it is true that Jesus said that only few would enter the gate, when asked “then salvation is impossible,” He responded, “Nothing is impossible for God.” I would *hope *that God’s *infinite *mercy would be applied to more souls than just 3 in tens of thousands. I would hope that more souls, confronted by God, appeal to His infinite mercy rather than choose Hell according to His infinite justice.

As for me, even if this is all true, I cannot but help to reiterate Peter’s words, “Lord, you have the words of eternal life, to whom can we turn?” It is impossible to defy God; we simply must accept what is.

However, I think this kind of admonishment is far more likely to engender despair than hope, and it will drive nearly everyone away from the Church - and many in the Church away from Her.

Let us assume that this assertion is correct. Maybe I am wrong, but I STILL would ***never ***make characterizations like “only 3 in 33,000 souls are saved,” because doing so - objectively speaking - is likely to cause despair and hoplessness and drive people away from and out of the Church. I would rather simply quote Jesus himself (the more nebulous answer of “few are saved”) and try to keep people IN the Church so that their infinitesimal chances for salvation can be infinitimally improved. When the consequences are infinite, even an infinitely small shift in chances should be siezed upon, and characterizations like (only 3 in 33,000 are saved) should be avoided.

I know I’m going against St. Leonard here, but I pray that I am in Christ.
 
However, I think this kind of admonishment is far more likely to engender despair than hope, and it will drive nearly everyone away from the Church - and many in the Church away from Her.

Let us assume that this assertion is correct. Maybe I am wrong, but I STILL would ***never ***make characterizations like “only 3 in 33,000 souls are saved,” because doing so - objectively speaking - is likely to cause despair and hoplessness and drive people away from and out of the Church. I would rather simply quote Jesus himself (the more nebulous answer of “few are saved”) and try to keep people IN the Church so that their infinitesimal chances for salvation can be infinitimally improved. When the consequences are infinite, even an infinitely small shift in chances should be siezed upon, and characterizations like (only 3 in 33,000 are saved) should be avoided.

I know I’m going against St. Leonard here, but I pray that I am in Christ.
Trust me I understand your sentiment completely. I was first introduced to Saint Leonard here on this forum, and posted a while back about less than 1/10th of 1% according to Saint Leonard are saved. Having wrestled with this extensively I’ve come to the conclusion, that Saint Leonard’s views although not condemned by the Church because all Saints writings have to be examined prior to canonization, is not the Doctrine of the Catholic Church that only 3 in 33,000 are saved. Straight from the Catechism…

Hell
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

Purgatory
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

To be in God’s grace, and friendship requires all mortal sin be confessed in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and I’m sure with the firm resolve not to commit those sins again. God knows how weak and unsteady our steps toward Him are. That’s why He gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation. When ever we fall we can get right back up through that wonderful, and amazing Sacrament. God also gave us a tremendous advocate in our Blessed Mother to help us on our way to salvation. Every time we recite the Rosary we are asking for her to go to Jesus and plead on ours, and others behalf that God grant us the Grace to die in a state of Grace, and not in a moment of weakness with mortal sin on our soul.

Here’s why I advocate the Rosary so much.
1014. The Church encourages us to prepare ourselves for the hour of our death. In the ancient litany of the saints, for instance, she has us pray: “From a sudden and unforeseen death, deliver us, O Lord”;588 to ask the Mother of God to intercede for us “at the hour of our death” in the Hail Mary; and to entrust ourselves to St. Joseph, the patron of a happy death. Every action of yours, every thought, should be those of one who expects to die before the day is out. Death would have no great terrors for you if you had a quiet conscience. . . . Then why not keep clear of sin instead of running away from death? If you aren’t fit to face death today, it’s very unlikely you will be tomorrow. .

For us salvation is not possible, but with God all things are possible. My friend I encourage you to soldier on. Like you said… To whom else would we turn?
 
For us salvation is not possible, but with God all things are possible. My friend I encourage you to soldier on. Like you said… To whom else would we turn?
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. Certainly, St. Leonard’s sermon is not Church doctrine - but it is frightening because it is consistent with Church doctrine and it is backed up by asserted Divine private revelations and some pretty authoritative saints.

My hope is that the private revelations and St. Leonard’s reasoning are not literal, but rather figurative. This might, but is in no way dispositive, be substantiated by some facts. There were about 800 million people in the world in 1750 when St. Leonard died. With a worldwide life expectancy of roughly 35 years, you can average that 1/35 of the population died every year. If you divide 800 million by 35 and then divide again by 365 days in a year and 24 hours in a day you get a rough approximate average of 2,600 deaths per hour. That’s far below the 60,000 deaths in an hour in one of the visions mentioned in his sermon; however, deaths certainly come in large spikes due to war, disease, disaster, etc - so 60,000 deaths in one hour at that time remains consistent with the reported vision.

The point I’m making is that if the numbers are off, then it’s more likely that the vision is figurative. However, there’s nothing inconsistent with the numbers vision and the world population at the time, so it’s possible also that the vision was literal.

However, he referenced more than one vision - but rather a consistent set of visions all indicating that extremely few people are saved from Hell.

In any case, given the “wiggle room” in the vision and in all private revelations, what I am hoping is that the visions are there to scare us to life and to be very serious about our own salvation.

However, if the visions and the estimates are true, then salvation is next to hopeless. Even people who think they are “willing” salvation for themselves, think of themselves as being in full union with Rome, and think they are properly catechized - in all likelihood are not saved at all. Notice that St. Leonard was primarily preaching to Catholics.

I reiterate that I think the thought of 1 in 10,000 people being saved AT ALL (even purgatory) will drive the vast majority of people to despair and hoplessness; worse, give people reason to abandon goodness altogether in the name of “getting some” before they are doomed to Hell (i.e., buy into the Devil’s lies).

In other words, what is the point of trying to be good and undertaking penances if you are likely doomed to Hell anyway because your good acts and penances were insufficient? Why not just abandon that difficult path and just cast oneself into sex, drugs, and rock and roll so you get a little pleasure before burning in Hell regardless?

Clearly, we don’t want to encourage despair and hoplessness. We also don’t want to encourage overt evil and hedonism. Therefore, I am fairly convinced that this type of preaching or persuasion is counter-productive and should not be used - at all. Mind you, we DO need to be more active on teaching the reality of Hell and the pressing need to be ready for the Lord; however, this also means that I think St. Leonard was wrong to preach the way he did, even if he was correct.

God have mercy on me if I am wrong. 😦
 
By the way, you’ve convinced me, indirectly, to add the link to the promises of the Rosary to my signature. 🙂
 
However, if the visions and the estimates are true, then salvation is next to hopeless. Even people who think they are “willing” salvation for themselves, think of themselves as being in full union with Rome, and think they are properly catechized - in all likelihood are not saved at all. Notice that St. Leonard was primarily preaching to Catholics.

I reiterate that I think the thought of 1 in 10,000 people being saved AT ALL (even purgatory) will drive the vast majority of people to despair and hoplessness; worse, give people reason to abandon goodness altogether in the name of “getting some” before they are doomed to Hell (i.e., buy into the Devil’s lies).

In other words, what is the point of trying to be good and undertaking penances if you are likely doomed to Hell anyway because your good acts and penances were insufficient? Why not just abandon that difficult path and just cast oneself into sex, drugs, and rock and roll so you get a little pleasure before burning in Hell regardless?

Clearly, we don’t want to encourage despair and hoplessness. We also don’t want to encourage overt evil and hedonism. Therefore, I am fairly convinced that this type of preaching or persuasion is counter-productive and should not be used - at all. Mind you, we DO need to be more active on teaching the reality of Hell and the pressing need to be ready for the Lord; however, this also means that I think St. Leonard was wrong to preach the way he did, even if he was correct.

God have mercy on me if I am wrong. 😦
The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord. This is one area that I find totally missing in homilies today. Priests are not talking about the true dangers and consequences of sin in their homilies. I think that is a grave disservice to the Church. I think it would be wise to heed what the saints have to say to us. They have found the way of salvation, and know what it takes to get to heaven.

I’m believing more and more that we may be in Matthew 24:4, "Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,a’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

I was watching the history of the Church on EWTN, and when they got to JP2 he made a statement that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. He said, “I don’t know if the entire Christian circle, or the world community realize that we are now facing the final conflict between the Church, and the anti church, and the antichrist.”

We live in an unprecedented time in history. The Saints didn’t face the same temptations as we do today. We are constantly bombarded with evil, and temptations everywhere around us. Pornography is always a click away either on tv, or the internet. Sex is available 24 hours a day through the internet. Abortion, birth control, shacking up, and adultery are the norms today, and you’re ridiculed if you speak out against them. I work on a medical unit for adolescents, and homosexuality is rampant. It wasn’t like that when I was that age. Drugs are everywhere. I’m not saying these things didn’t exist throughout history, but they have never been constantly instantly available like they are today. These temptations, and messages are pounded through our eyes, and ears all day long. The world has changed drastically in the last 45 years since I was a kid, and not for the better.

We have to more vigilant now than any time in history. I’m divorced and totally open to God calling me to a monastary in a desert somewhere for prayer, and penance for the rest of my life.
 
If you read this from Saint Leonard of Port Maurice you’d get the idea that the opposite is true, and it’s Heaven that is emptier than most believe.
I know you were just posting this to counter presumption and I agree with the traditional stance… I mean I I humbly submit to the wisdom of the Saints and there are salutary lessons to be heeded…
but…
I have just read that and am frankly paralysed… it fills me with deep dread.

Consider…a synod of holy Bishops…They’d given up a lot and were following Christ on The Way…and then…

While he was preparing his sermon, a horrible demon appeared to him and said, “*Lay your books aside. If you want to give a sermon that will be useful to these princes and prelates, content yourself with telling them on our part, ‘We the princes of darkness thank you, princes, prelates, and pastors of souls, that due to your negligence, the greater number of the faithful are damned; also, we are saving a **reward *for you for this favor, when you shall be with us in Hell.’”.

I have below constructed a pictorial statistical analysis of mens’ reaction on judgment day. The 🙂 is the guy in purgatory who at least knows he is in the ante-chamber! The others are self-explanatory…I have been restricted to 8 images and have used one so here goes…😃 (Saint Bernard) 😃 (Holy Archdeacon in Lyons) 🙂 (probably lived in the desert) 🙂 (probably a Carthusian)

:eek:* 32,999 (the rest of us)

ORA PRO NOBIS

AND MARANTHA (preferably straight after confession)
 
What troubled me most over St. Leonard’s words is not so much that sinners go to Hell, but that the sacrament of penance is so rarely valid because of a variety of reasons.

St. Leonard made it seem as though almost any reason you have for going to confession is a bad one, therefore, it renders it useless. I become wary whenever anyone judges someone’s reason for going to confession. It was unusual, at first St. Leonard was like, “Well, yes the sacrament of Penance can result in redemption…BUT” and then he went into all these reasons of how the vast majority of repentances are invalid because of something.

St. Leonard has some good points. Indeed, it is easy to just fall into sin, and the road to salvation is difficult. However, I think St. Leonard forgot (he can make a mistake, he is still human) is that God’s mercy is infinite as well. God knows we are a broken people, He knows we are going to sin after confession. If sinning after one’s first confession rendered all confessions invalid, then, yes, we’d mostly be going to Hell. But God knows that we try hard. He knows that it is very difficult for us to stop sinning. When we say our act of contrition, yes, we say we will sin no more, and that we will avoid occasions of sin as best we can, but if we really would sin no more, there’d be no real need for priests to enter confessionals regularly to hear the sins of people. We must try our best to sin no more, but we are not to despair if we still trip and fall. In addition, in St. Leonard’s day, the idea of mental disorders was still pretty new. We now know that many people suffer from issues that can greatly reduce their culpability. Also, the culture of St. Leonard’s time was much more accepting of the faith. It is much, much harder to fight sin in today’s world.

I think St. Leonard’s overall message is not so much “Yeah, basically all of you are going to Hell, no matter how hard you try,” but more of, “Try your best. Do not presume on your sins. Don’t become complacent.”

I, personally, wish to try my best so as to obtain Heaven. I know much is required of myself by God.

But, at the same time, I am very, very, very hopeful and optimistic when it comes to others.

Basically, my idea is this: When it comes to myself, focus on God’s justice. When it comes to others, focus on God’s mercy.
 
What troubled me most over St. Leonard’s words is not so much that sinners go to Hell, but that the sacrament of penance is so rarely valid because of a variety of reasons.

St. Leonard made it seem as though almost any reason you have for going to confession is a bad one, therefore, it renders it useless. I become wary whenever anyone judges someone’s reason for going to confession. It was unusual, at first St. Leonard was like, “Well, yes the sacrament of Penance can result in redemption…BUT” and then he went into all these reasons of how the vast majority of repentances are invalid because of something.

St. Leonard has some good points. Indeed, it is easy to just fall into sin, and the road to salvation is difficult. However, I think St. Leonard forgot (he can make a mistake, he is still human) is that God’s mercy is infinite as well. God knows we are a broken people, He knows we are going to sin after confession. If sinning after one’s first confession rendered all confessions invalid, then, yes, we’d mostly be going to Hell. But God knows that we try hard. He knows that it is very difficult for us to stop sinning. When we say our act of contrition, yes, we say we will sin no more, and that we will avoid occasions of sin as best we can, but if we really would sin no more, there’d be no real need for priests to enter confessionals regularly to hear the sins of people. We must try our best to sin no more, but we are not to despair if we still trip and fall. In addition, in St. Leonard’s day, the idea of mental disorders was still pretty new. We now know that many people suffer from issues that can greatly reduce their culpability. Also, the culture of St. Leonard’s time was much more accepting of the faith. It is much, much harder to fight sin in today’s world.

I think St. Leonard’s overall message is not so much “Yeah, basically all of you are going to Hell, no matter how hard you try,” but more of, “Try your best. Do not presume on your sins. Don’t become complacent.”

I, personally, wish to try my best so as to obtain Heaven. I know much is required of myself by God.

But, at the same time, I am very, very, very hopeful and optimistic when it comes to others.

Basically, my idea is this: When it comes to myself, focus on God’s justice. When it comes to others, focus on God’s mercy.
I find it hard to reconcile “my yoke is easy, my burden light” with St.Leonard’s comments regarding how hard (nigh on impossible) it it is to attain salvation. Also the parable of the lost sheep, prodigal son etc are reasons for hope

Yet I know St.Leonard was holy and close to God and his comments are reflected in most other’s saints’ writings. My question to dear forummers is “Are there any saints who have written that quite a number will actually be saved?” Maybe they think there is a more even split of the damned and just. I’ve always felt
2% - Straight to Heaven
55% - Purgatory
43% Hell…I could get out of bed with those figures…they would give me some hope…Anyway my well rehearsed line when I die after Viaticum and a good confession will be “I never really had free will, I appeal to your mercy…Mary help me out here!”…who is that with the pitchfork :eek:???
 
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