An emptier Hell than most believe?

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Lately I have come to wrestle with the idea of a Hell much emptier than most consider. That’s not to say there are not hundreds or thousands or millions of souls there, just less than most people believe. I have a couple of points that I can’t quite reconcile when put together and they have to do with mercy, justice, love, and intention.

At Fatima, Our Lady revealed to the children that “souls are falling into Hell like snowflakes.” That sounds terrifying, but then I think back to a few other factors: God, the divine creator, is love- the ultimate, most pure love beyond anyone’s imagination. That being said, we all know there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO love in Hell. I know plenty of very secular people that have a difficult time accepting the truth (no matter how much sense it makes and no matter how much truth is presented to them) of Faith and Christianity and God, but have plenty of love and charity and good-will in their hearts- more than many practicing Christians! This being said, a lack of Faith and the decision not to yield their lives to God would send them to Hell, however, all of their love and good must be taken away for them to be condemned to this fate. For all good and charity and love to be stripped from them on their way to Hell would be to actually CHANGE their souls and change their entire being. This does not make sense. Another point to be brought up is that, while we must trust in God’s justice, it is even more important to trust in His mercy. Is it possible that those with love in their hearts and good-will and charity go to Hell? There is no doubt in my mind that there are some (very few) who did have no love in their hearts and made definitive choices to do and be evil, and they are in Hell, but for those who did possess love, charity, and good-will but still chose to contracept while knowing it was wrong, or engage in unchaste behavior while fully aware of it being wrong, could it be they ended up in Heaven, probably with more time in purgatory?

I would love to hear thoughts on this as it is a topic I’m fascinated with that really could affect the way we view our Faith as Catholic Christians.

May God Bless you, Mary guide you, and the Holy Angels protect you!
 
The fact is that our Lord himself said that the gate is very narrow. That alone should tell you that not everyone enters into the kingdom of heaven. I don’t speak for God (thank heaven for that), but His mercy & forgivness ends at the time of our death. Once we pass that line of no return, His perfect justice begins and WE decide what end our wills have chosen. You speak about people who have had the good news shown to them, but they still refuse it, but claim that they still have love for other; Our purpose in this life is to know and love God, so how can somone who never loved God in this life be able to love him in his kingdom? No my friend, as sad as it makes me to say it, but I feel our lady was right when she said those words. In this age we never want to work hard for what our Lord wants to give us, we just wanted hand it to us without picking up our own cross. I never claim who is in hell, that is up to our Lord, but if we don’t seek God in this life, then we will never find him in the next.The kingdom of heaven must be faught for and suffered for, so that we can enter it (God willing), but in the end it will be darn worth it.
 
“Lately I have come to wrestle with the idea of a Hell much emptier than most consider.”

I’m not sure if your ideas here are as fringe as you might think. The number of contemporary theologians who believe that a majority of humans, among all who’ve ever existed, will permanently pass through the gates of Hell are probably very few. Ever heard of Hans Urs von Balthasar?

You raise some good points. Mercy does have priority over justice. That’s a consistent teaching of the whole Bible. Also, we shouldn’t get it backwards when thinking of Hell. To think of it in terms of a courtroom where the Judge pronounces the sentence is the wrong idea, I think. The reality of Hell is probably much closer to what CS Lewis had in mind–>in the end, there are only two types of people: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “thy will be done.” Hell only makes sense, I submit to you, in this way–that a person chooses to be away from that which is good so deeply that he would even reject that which is Good. It simply is not the case that all people want what is best for them, neither superficially (eg, avoiding too much sugar) nor on a deeper level (eg, avoiding all intimate relationships). And then there is the fact that human character can be altered and marred through consistent vice to such an extent that one isn’t even able to recognize good fully for what it is anymore.

Additionally, many interpret Jesus’ words In Matthew 7 wrongly, I think. He says,

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Mat 7:13-14)

Our Lord’s words here are indicative of the difficulty of salvation, which is a consistent message of the NT. That most people will end up n Hell, however, is not a consistent biblical message. Using the hermeneutical principle that the less clear is to be interpreted in light of that which is clear, I don’t think we’re in a position to assume Our Lord’s words here are about some numerical description of some final talley of those who ‘made it’ and those who didn’t.
 
kah07 said:
Lately I have come to wrestle with the idea of a Hell much emptier than most consider. That’s not to say there are not hundreds or thousands or millions of souls there, just less than most people believe. I have a couple of points that I can’t quite reconcile when put together and they have to do with mercy, justice, love, and intention.

At Fatima, Our Lady revealed to the children that “souls are falling into Hell like snowflakes.” That sounds terrifying, but then I think back to a few other factors: God, the divine creator, is love- the ultimate, most pure love beyond anyone’s imagination. That being said, we all know there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO love in Hell. I know plenty of very secular people that have a difficult time accepting the truth (no matter how much sense it makes and no matter how much truth is presented to them) of Faith and Christianity and God, but have plenty of love and charity and good-will in their hearts- more than many practicing Christians! This being said, a lack of Faith and the decision not to yield their lives to God would send them to Hell, however, all of their love and good must be taken away for them to be condemned to this fate. For all good and charity and love to be stripped from them on their way to Hell would be to actually CHANGE their souls and change their entire being. This does not make sense. Another point to be brought up is that, while we must trust in God’s justice, it is even more important to trust in His mercy. Is it possible that those with love in their hearts and good-will and charity go to Hell? There is no doubt in my mind that there are some (very few) who did have no love in their hearts and made definitive choices to do and be evil, and they are in Hell, but for those who did possess love, charity, and good-will but still chose to contracept while knowing it was wrong, or engage in unchaste behavior while fully aware of it being wrong, could it be they ended up in Heaven, probably with more time in purgatory?

I would love to hear thoughts on this as it is a topic I’m fascinated with that really could affect the way we view our Faith as Catholic Christians.

May God Bless you, Mary guide you, and the Holy Angels protect you!
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BLESSINGS to all who post on this topic and I will refer to:

Revelation 20 (11-15) titled The Large White Throne must read in complete context and in vs-12 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened, Then the scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according th their deeds., by what was written in the scrolls..

This is taken out of the FIRESIDE- New American Bible/ Personal Study Catholic Edition…
I think and with all of my heart, and with My GOD fearing understanding I want to be in the one book of life not to be in one of many (plural) Books… of those of death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire…
 
Yes, as Magnanimity, this idea of an almost empty hell is not “fringe”. This is not the first time I have heard of it nor will it probably be the last. However, we must not mistake “mercy”, with, I can sin as much as I want and I’m not going to hell anyway. And at any rate, I think most of us will spend some, if not a lot, of time in purgatory. 🤷

Funny, I also thought of Fatima as an objection to the almost empty hell idea.
 
It is significant that there are far more posts about Hell than Heaven. Evil and vice are generally more striking and sensational than goodness and virtue. Some Christians seem to derive a morbid satisfaction from the very idea of Hell. It seems to be motivated by a primitive desire for revenge rather than justice. Yet the thought that there are persons separated from God forever should make us feel compassion rather than contentment. Our dominating belief should be that we are created for love rather than self-love. It is the norm to go to Heaven rather than Hell.

This is not to underestimate the reality of evil but to see it in its proper perspective.To live for oneself is an aberration because we are social beings designed to co-exist in harmony with others. We need others to be truly fulfilled and happy. To put ourselves first constantly is a form of ignorance which distorts our scale of values. It implies that we are more valuable than everyone else - including God! This is not only ignorance but insanity! Yet it is culpable insanity because we know we are making others suffer unnecessarily. We may blind ourselves to the full reality of their suffering but we know in our heart of hearts that what we are doing is wrong - unless we are truly insane.

How many people in this world deserve an eternity of self-inflicted misery? It would be presumptuous to name anyone in history who deserves such a fate. That is why the Church wisely postulates purgatory in which we have the opportunity to make amends for the needless suffering we have caused, either deliberately or through carelessness and neglect. Hell is the very last outpost for those who deliberately reject God and His kingdom for the sake of their own independence. It takes courage to do this with clear understanding of its implications. No one finishes up in hell like falling into an unexpected trap. That would be unjust on the part of God who loves us far more than we love ourselves. But why would anyone deliberately choose to be damned?!

We should not underestimate the lust for absolute power - one of the temptations to which Jesus Himself was exposed in the desert. It would make us rivals to the Creator Himself, sovereigns in our own kingdom and complete masters of own destiny. There is a great deal of pleasure in Hell; otherwise no one would opt for it. Yet that very pleasure is poisoned by the awareness that we did not create ourselves and that even in Hell our power comes from God and that without Him we would not exist. Not only that. We worship ourselves but our status as creatures means that we cannot be satisfied with a substitute for God. Our imperfection brings us misery which can be assuaged only by repentance and love. As St Augustine observed, “Because God has made us for Himself, our hearts are restless until they rest in Him”. That is why the poor souls in hell are tormented by their own insufficiency. It is not for us to decide that they are forever incapable of one act of repentance which would liberate them from their slavery to themselves…
 
kah07 said:
Lately I have come to wrestle with the idea of a Hell much emptier than most consider. That’s not to say there are not hundreds or thousands or millions of souls there, just less than most people believe. I have a couple of points that I can’t quite reconcile when put together and they have to do with mercy, justice, love, and intention.

At Fatima, Our Lady revealed to the children that “souls are falling into Hell like snowflakes.” That sounds terrifying, but then I think back to a few other factors: God, the divine creator, is love- the ultimate, most pure love beyond anyone’s imagination. That being said, we all know there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO love in Hell. I know plenty of very secular people that have a difficult time accepting the truth (no matter how much sense it makes and no matter how much truth is presented to them) of Faith and Christianity and God, but have plenty of love and charity and good-will in their hearts- more than many practicing Christians! This being said, a lack of Faith and the decision not to yield their lives to God would send them to Hell, however, all of their love and good must be taken away for them to be condemned to this fate. For all good and charity and love to be stripped from them on their way to Hell would be to actually CHANGE their souls and change their entire being. This does not make sense. Another point to be brought up is that, while we must trust in God’s justice, it is even more important to trust in His mercy. Is it possible that those with love in their hearts and good-will and charity go to Hell? There is no doubt in my mind that there are some (very few) who did have no love in their hearts and made definitive choices to do and be evil, and they are in Hell, but for those who did possess love, charity, and good-will but still chose to contracept while knowing it was wrong, or engage in unchaste behavior while fully aware of it being wrong, could it be they ended up in Heaven, probably with more time in purgatory?

I would love to hear thoughts on this as it is a topic I’m fascinated with that really could affect the way we view our Faith as Catholic Christians.

May God Bless you, Mary guide you, and the Holy Angels protect you!
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Well there you go…you’ve answered your own question. Purgatory!

Not that Purgatory is any walk in the park but, yes many souls that die in God’s grace but have un-paid, forgiven sins - end up in Purgatory.

One point you mentioned is important to clear up though. God’s justice and God’s mercy are equally important otherwise Jesus’ sacrifice would be useless or at least renedered unnecessary.

Sin is death. Habitual sin erodes the grace in a person’s soul. Without grace there is no repentance. God’s grace is resistable. A life of sin as opposed to a life of prayer or a life of the spirit, not only erodes but seals a person in their sins. Becoming “seared” if you will, with the seal of the antichrist in their minds and their souls. Sin no longer horrifies them. Instead sin is justified as a “life-style” or an unavoidable need to live ones life as one pleases.
 
mangy_dog said:
Well there you go…

One point you mentioned is important to clear up though. God’s justice and God’s mercy are equally important otherwise Jesus’ sacrifice would be useless or at least renedered unnecessary.

Sin is death. Habitual sin erodes the grace in a person’s soul. Without grace there is no repentance. God’s grace is resistable. A life of sin as opposed to a life of prayer or a life of the spirit, not only erodes but seals a person in their sins. Becoming “seared” if you will, with the seal of the antichrist in their minds and their souls. Sin no longer horrifies them. Instead sin is justified as a “life-style” or an unavoidable need to live ones life as one pleases.
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A great response and it sounds like you been on the unreceiving end of sin, at one time in your life and have also been on receivings end are and now you poise a eye opening statement plainly in laymans language the doesn’t have all the jargin of multiple words… which could defeat the purpose…

Good for you…
Peace bro
 
The idea of Hell is one of the barriers between me and most Abrahamic religions - you see, I’m not sure ANYONE deserves to go to Hell, depending on the nature of such a place. If hell is simply nothingness, then that is fine and I can understand that, but if it is in any way this suffering for eternity that it has been portrayed as, then no one deserves it.

Eternity is just too long a punishment - even if Hitler was punished for every single act of torture and every death he caused, it would not be an eternity, and I cannot worship a God who would punish far less evil people in such a way.
 
Yes the idea of Hell, should attract the most attention of all beings if indeed they believe in the concept or not, for in the far most coner of the mind the thought lingers…? What if I am wrong and if there is a remote chance of it existing will I or could I end up their. As scripture says exactly what it is and is a lake of fiery torment where one can not evade to a place to quench one’s thirst and misery/gashing of teeth. Because of ones perception of it not being just, doesn’t mean it is not real. Again we will not be judged by one another but by a Most Holy One, who’s only desire was that none should perish and we should seek him in all of our life . If one could somehow pay the cost by himself then there would be book written just how to do that and would be the all time worlds best seller (by the way is the BIBLE) I have yet to see any ironclad methods to acheive this, if one could possible think they only lets say receive only 20.000 yrs in hell then because and they didn’t believe in God, should somehow be granted mercy… by what understanding would that person think because of their lack of belief in God, should be granted yet a immortal life with a God that they believe wasn’t real or that was unjust? The Good News is you can be forgiven of all things except One which is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, Even if one has taken another life or worst by believing there is no forgiveness
 
1WATCHER said:
A great response and it sounds like you been on the unreceiving end of sin, at one time in your life and have also been on receivings end are and now you poise a eye opening statement plainly in laymans language the doesn’t have all the jargin of multiple words… which could defeat the purpose…

Good for you…
Peace bro
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  • Yes
  • Yes
  • and yes
and Thank you my friend.
 
Lethe said:
The idea of Hell is one of the barriers between me and most Abrahamic religions - you see, I’m not sure ANYONE deserves to go to Hell, depending on the nature of such a place. If hell is simply nothingness, then that is fine and I can understand that, but if it is in any way this suffering for eternity that it has been portrayed as, then no one deserves it.

Eternity is just too long a punishment - even if Hitler was punished for every single act of torture and every death he caused, it would not be an eternity, and I cannot worship a God who would punish far less evil people in such a way.
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Again,

This is a matter of not looking at both God’s mercy and God’s justice.

If there was no eternal consequence to a life of sin, then God’s law would be a double standard.

Why hold us to the rigors of the 10 commandments and a life of prayer and a life of the spirit etc etc etc. if there is no real punishment at the end of our earthly lives?

Why would there be an eternal reward if living a life of pride, lust, greed an so forth had no real punishment?

In other words, " live as you will for it doesn’t matter".

We don’t even do that in human law! And its imperfect.

Not to mention,…Jesus Christ, whose sacrifice on the cross and His words about heaven and hell are truth - would be rendered useless and false.
 
Lethe said:
The idea of Hell is one of the barriers between me and most Abrahamic religions - you see, I’m not sure ANYONE deserves to go to Hell, depending on the nature of such a place. If hell is simply nothingness, then that is fine and I can understand that, but if it is in any way this suffering for eternity that it has been portrayed as, then no one deserves it.

Eternity is just too long a punishment - even if Hitler was punished for every single act of torture and every death he caused, it would not be an eternity, and I cannot worship a God who would punish far less evil people in such a way.
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Your difficulty disappears if you realise that hell is not a punishment inflicted by God but a state of self-inflicted isolation on the part of those who are willing to pay the price for worshipping themselves and having absolute freedom to live as they like. Their misery stems from the fact that, as St Augustine remarked, we are made for God and we cannot be at peace until we find Him. We torment ourselves if we love ourselves too much because our desires will never be satisfied. The more we have the more we want…ad infinitum…
 
kah07 said:
Lately I have come to wrestle with the idea of a Hell much emptier than most consider. That’s not to say there are not hundreds or thousands or millions of souls there, just less than most people believe. I have a couple of points that I can’t quite reconcile when put together and they have to do with mercy, justice, love, and intention.

At Fatima, Our Lady revealed to the children that “souls are falling into Hell like snowflakes.” That sounds terrifying, but then I think back to a few other factors: God, the divine creator, is love- the ultimate, most pure love beyond anyone’s imagination. That being said, we all know there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO love in Hell. I know plenty of very secular people that have a difficult time accepting the truth (no matter how much sense it makes and no matter how much truth is presented to them) of Faith and Christianity and God, but have plenty of love and charity and good-will in their hearts- more than many practicing Christians! This being said, a lack of Faith and the decision not to yield their lives to God would send them to Hell, however, all of their love and good must be taken away for them to be condemned to this fate. For all good and charity and love to be stripped from them on their way to Hell would be to actually CHANGE their souls and change their entire being. This does not make sense. Another point to be brought up is that, while we must trust in God’s justice, it is even more important to trust in His mercy. Is it possible that those with love in their hearts and good-will and charity go to Hell? There is no doubt in my mind that there are some (very few) who did have no love in their hearts and made definitive choices to do and be evil, and they are in Hell, but for those who did possess love, charity, and good-will but still chose to contracept while knowing it was wrong, or engage in unchaste behavior while fully aware of it being wrong, could it be they ended up in Heaven, probably with more time in purgatory?

I would love to hear thoughts on this as it is a topic I’m fascinated with that really could affect the way we view our Faith as Catholic Christians.

May God Bless you, Mary guide you, and the Holy Angels protect you!
Click to expand...
Firstly I’d like to add Ive also met people like that, people who do good but deny God and His Christ [openly -without shame]. Do not be put-off by them, they are decieved. The pagans in the old testament used to Worship Idols and give alms also… but they were not accepted by God since He (GOD) did not have ownership of their heart… know that the demons can give alms if needed, we are not justified through alms alone, faith first (alms also), and what is faith? The cross of Christ, where we find grace and truth, the forgiveness of sins…if you want to defeat satan, it is through “HUMILITY” you win. Which comes from Grace, THE HOLY SPIRIT.
The Lord says, “the fruit of the lips is mine”, how are we to know which good work the Lord renders to our own good credit in due time? Are we so confident that sin will not overtake us? Let us plead for victory then, that we might be Holy, taking Jesus as example. That is my answer in regard to sin.

A good commentary on Hell is by “Mary Baxter”, google her video and you will see… my personal beliefs come from her testament amoungst other sources…

But for me, I have the opposite attitude to yourself, I believe their are plenty of souls down their, being judged after death.
 
tonyrey said:
Your difficulty disappears if you realise that hell is not a punishment inflicted by God but a state of self-inflicted isolation on the part of those who are willing to pay the price for worshipping themselves and having absolute freedom to live as they like. Their misery stems from the fact that, as St Augustine remarked, we are made for God and we cannot be at peace until we find Him. We torment ourselves if we love ourselves too much because our desires will never be satisfied. The more we have the more we want…ad infinitum…
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The flames of hell are the love of God as experienced by those who finally refuse to accept it, just as the flames of purgatory are the love of God experienced by those getting accustomed to it.
 
My dear friend

Your really asking for trouble with that opinion. I have my own personal idea I’ve been thinking about which is just a theory that suggests although very many go to an eternal hell in the end we don’t understand eternity and it’s a longer story than this but after the damned have satisfied divine justice by undergoing infinite suffering then divine mercy will prevail and all end up in a paradise, even the demons. There are several reasons I think this may be so. Chiefly but not exclusively God loves all those in hell and does not desire they be there and can correct this situation if He wants. I suspect He has a plan to do so in eternity. God’s will , will win in the end I think. God loves all and wills all be saved. God could never divulge such a plan as many would be less inclined to virtue but it’s possible God wins in the end. I consider a win for God complete victory in that He loses no angels or souls. Its all just a theory but if you want to hear more let me know. I’ll post it. But saying hell is not forever is a very controversial subject that can ignite anger in many. Bear that in mind.

God bless you:thumbsup:🙂

John
 
bpaynter said:
The flames of hell are the love of God as experienced by those who finally refuse to accept it, just as the flames of purgatory are the love of God experienced by those getting accustomed to it.
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I like the idea of “those getting accustomed to the love of God”. To be in the presence of His overwhelming goodness must make us acutely aware of the extent to which we have caused unnecessary suffering, either deliberately or by omission…
 
John_Russell_Jr said:
My dear friend

Your really asking for trouble with that opinion. I have my own personal idea I’ve been thinking about which is just a theory that suggests although very many go to an eternal hell in the end we don’t understand eternity and it’s a longer story than this but after the damned have satisfied divine justice by undergoing infinite suffering then divine mercy will prevail and all end up in a paradise, even the demons. There are several reasons I think this may be so. Chiefly but not exclusively God loves all those in hell and does not desire they be there and can correct this situation if He wants. I suspect He has a plan to do so in eternity. God’s will , will win in the end I think. God loves all and wills all be saved. God could never divulge such a plan as many would be less inclined to virtue but it’s possible God wins in the end. I consider a win for God complete victory in that He loses no angels or souls. Its all just a theory but if you want to hear more let me know. I’ll post it. But saying hell is not forever is a very controversial subject that can ignite anger in many. Bear that in mind.

God bless you:thumbsup:🙂

John
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I sympathise with your ideas, John. God certainly loves all and wills all to be saved but whether all will wish to be loved by God is another matter. The absurdity of loving oneself more than God makes it likely that ultimately everyone will repent. But He has given absolute power over ourselves so some may not repent. The buck stops with us and it always will. He will have complete victory anyway.

Teach us, good Lord,
to serve You as you deserve,
to give and not to count the cost,
to fight and not to heed the wounds,
to toil and not to seek for rest,
to labour and not to ask for any reward,
save that of knowing that we do Your will…

That is precisely what Jesus did on earth and does in heaven. If some reject His love it will reflect their ingratitude and not diminish His infinite goodness. That is all that counts…
 
archangel04 said:
The fact is that our Lord himself said that the gate is very narrow. That alone should tell you that not everyone enters into the kingdom of heaven. I don’t speak for God (thank heaven for that), but His mercy & forgiveness ends at the time of our death. …
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Arch:

How do you know God’s mercy ends after death for those eternally condemned?

🤷
 
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