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spockrates
Guest
Amen.
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spockrates
Guest
Fascinating. Please explain in what way the fires of hell are examples of God’s love.
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bpaynter
Guest
They who deliberately and finally refuse God’s love still cannot avoid being in its presence which is intolerable.
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mikee
Guest
The Catechism of the Catholic Church,Arch:
How do you know God’s mercy ends after death for those eternally condemned?
St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out that God shows mercy to those in hell in respect that however much they suffer, they do not suffer as much as they truly deserve.
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spockrates
Guest
Thank you, BPaynter for answering my question. And please forgive me for being slow to understand. Are you saying the phrase* fires of Hell* is a metaphor for the presence of God?
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spockrates
Guest
I appreciate your taking the time to answer my question, Mikee. And yes, I cannot argue with the Catechism. Hell is a real place or state of existence or both. Hell is also eternal, and those damned to enter it never return. And since Socrates once wisely said,
A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense. Let us try to understand him.
(Theaetetus, 152)
I think it wise to try to understand the wise Saint Tom. Please tell me, in what ways can you imagine that a soul suffers in Hell. Do you think the suffering is chiefly the damned soul’s awareness of her eternal separation from God?
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bpaynter
Guest
I’m using fire as a metaphor for the love of God, which is omnipresent. The saints revel and bask in it. To those who finally refuse it, it is hell.Thank you, BPaynter for answering my question. And please forgive me for being slow to understand. Are you saying the phrase* fires of Hell* is a metaphor for the presence of God?
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spockrates
Guest
Since God’s love is omnipresent, it would seem that even those in Hell are not separated from His love. I suppose the question to ask is this: In what way does He give His love to those in Hell?
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bpaynter
Guest
By being God.
By the way, did you initially have a comment about those in Hell basking in God’s love? I recall reading this before going out for 3-4 hours, and it has now disappeared
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hawkeye
Guest
I don’t remember reading those exact words, can you provide a reputable link ?
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spockrates
Guest
Sorry for being so slow to learn, BPayner, but that one went over my head. Or did you just fail to understand my question? If I were, for example, to ask you, “In what way did the judge sentence the convicted murderer?” I would expect you to answer, “With life imprisonment,” or “With the death penalty.” If you were to answer, “By being a state supreme court justice,” you would not really be answering my question. Would you?
You appear to be doing the same here. I’m asking you in what way God loves those now in Hell. I’d expect you to say, “With mercy,” or “With tears of compassion and regret.” But you answer, “By being God.” You have told me that God is love, but not how God loves those in Hell. So please allow me to ask again: Exactly how does God love those in Hell?
Yes, I did. But I’m a bit of an armature when it comes to Philosophy, and changed my mind. I suppose I’m like Socrates that way, who said of himself,
But it’s true that, obviously under the influence of my ignorance, I chop and change, and even hold the opposite opinion sometimes. … I chop and change and continually modify my opinion. Inconsistency is to be expected in me and any other amateur.
(Hippias Minor 372, 376)
I thought it impossible for you to think those in Hell bask in God’s love, since you were saying they are only burned by it. So I thought it an ignorant, or perhaps even seemingly rude, question to ask, and decided to ask another.
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bpaynter
Guest
I cannot answer the question, just as I cannot describe in what manner God loves the Saints in heaven, and the souls in purgatory. His love is omnipresent, and we either accept it, or finally refuse it. As to what the love of God is LIKE I cannot at this stage say, seeing as I (with everyone else in this world) do through a glass, darkly.
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Thanks for the basking bit! I wondered if I was imagining things.
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spockrates
Guest
Then perhaps I’m beating my head against a wall trying to understand how God loves. If that is the case, then trying to figure out how I myself should love is equally futile. For Jesus (who is God) tells me to love the very same way that God loves!
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
(John 13:34)
And He tells me to pray that God will love me specifically by forgiving me the exact same way I forgive others.
" ‘Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’ For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
(Matthew 6:12-15)
But how can I love the way God loves if I don’t know the way God loves? And how can I forgive the way God forgives if I don’t know the way God forgives? And if I don’t know how to forgive as God forgives, do I really want to be forgiven in the same way I ignorantly try to forgive?
Thanks for basking in the light of God with me for awhile, Bpaynter. And please forgive me (if you really understand how to forgive as God forgives) for saying that I cannot help but think that if we allowed our eyes and minds to get accustomed to His light, we might have begun to get a focus on the Truth.
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Ancient_Magicks
Guest
So there are supposedly many statements outside the bible regarding Hell, and one of these sources is a revelation by the mother of Jesus.
Why would this have been revealed only to a select few? Does it not make more sense to reveal to all sinner’s a graphical view of hell once and for all so the dialectics about God’s existence not only end, but unbeliever’s can amend their lifestyle?
Why would this have been revealed only to a select few? Does it not make more sense to reveal to all sinner’s a graphical view of hell once and for all so the dialectics about God’s existence not only end, but unbeliever’s can amend their lifestyle?
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tonyrey
Guest
How do you propose that a graphical view of hell should be revealed for once and for all throughout the entire world for every generation in history? Your answer will be fascinating…
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Ancient_Magicks
Guest
I should have phrased it a lot better, I apologize. I should have made a generalization of any kind of revelation for the modern day, by graphical view I mean something like a big sign in the sky, and I don’t mean a shooting star whizzing past.How do you propose that a graphical view of hell should be revealed for once and for all throughout the entire world for every generation in history? Your answer will be fascinating…
No one can deny that God didn’t give an obvious sign if angels appeared in the middle of New York and silenced everyone and T.V cameras were rolling as the sky was filled like a big video screen displaying suffering souls in hell.
This is not beyond God’s capability is it?
I await your fascinating answer.
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tonyrey
Guest
What do you think would be the result?
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Ancient_Magicks
Guest
Just answer the question(s).
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tonyrey
Guest
You obviously have doubts about its effectiveness… Why should it be limited to NY? Why not to the entire world? And why not a permanent display in the sky for all eternity?
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tonyrey
Guest
You may be unaware that there were reports of a miracle in Fatima where there was an apparition of the Virgin Mary was seen by some children and thousands of people saw the sun dance in the sky. The result? It was attributed to mass hallucination!
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