An emptier Hell than most believe?

[Ancient_Magicks]

You obviously have doubts about its effectiveness… Why should it be limited to NY? Why not to the entire world? And why not a permanent display in the sky for all eternity?

NY was just an example, it could be any city, but preferably a city like NY or London, and not a random city in outer Mongolia where no T.V cameras are rolling, do you get my gist?

Yes, why not to the entire world? Mine was an example, it doesn’t really matter if it’s on display to NY or to the entire world.

Why a permanent display for eternity? Once there has been some video evidence of this, who is going to dispute it? In any case, a permanent display in the sky is ugly, I want to see a blue sky, perhaps after the initial display, we can erect something and it can be permanently displayed in there

Just answer the questions mate.

 

[Ancient_Magicks]

You may be unaware that there were reports of a miracle in Fatima where there was an apparition of the Virgin Mary was seen by some children and thousands of people saw the sun dance in the sky. The result? It was attributed to mass hallucination!

I know of it, my mum had a video cassette called “Marian apparitions” when I was younger, I don’t know where it’s got to now. Pope Pius XII also made references to it nearing his death.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun#Critical_evaluation_of_the_event

Despite these assertions, not all witnesses reported seeing the sun “dance”. Some people only saw the radiant colors. Others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.[31][32] No scientific accounts exist of any unusual solar or astronomic activity during the time the sun was reported to have “danced”, and there are no witness reports of any unusual solar phenomenon further than 64 kilometres (40 mi) out from Cova da Iria.[33]

There are numerous objective evaluations of this. Why can’t God give us an example where there is no scientific objection to it? Furthermore that’s not an example of hell, a graphical display of hell in the sky can’t be attributed to mass delusion, especially if it’s captured on film.

 

[tonyrey]

NY was just an example, it could be any city, but preferably a city like NY or London, and not a random city in outer Mongolia where no T.V cameras are rolling, do you get my gist?

Yes, why not to the entire world? Mine was an example, it doesn’t really matter if it’s on display to NY or to the entire world.

Why a permanent display for eternity? Once there has been some video evidence of this, who is going to dispute it? In any case, a permanent display in the sky is ugly, I want to see a blue sky, perhaps after the initial display, we can erect something and it can be permanently displayed in there

Just answer the questions mate.

The simple answer, mate, is that we are in this world to decide what to believe and how to live. If you are forced to believe in Big Brother who is watching you all the time how do you think you’re going to feel? Is that what you call freedom?

 

[Ancient_Magicks]

The simple answer, mate, is that we are in this world to decide what to believe and how to live. If you are forced to believe in Big Brother who is watching you all the time how do you think you’re going to feel? Is that what you call freedom?

In other words, you actually don’t have an answer to any of it.

If by Big Brother you mean god, why would it make me uncomfortable? You believe in god right, and you aren’t feeling uncomfortable that he’s watching you.

Anyways, I think this little discussion has run its course.

 

[tonyrey]

In other words, you actually don’t have an answer to any of it.

If by Big Brother you mean god, why would it make me uncomfortable? You believe in god right, and you aren’t feeling uncomfortable that he’s watching you.

Anyways, I think this little discussion has run its course.

I’ve given you an answer but you’ve rejected it. I don’t feel uncomfortable because I also believe God is infinitely loving. A vision of Hell in the sky is hardly likely to inspire that belief!
BTW You enjoy seeing a blue sky. You realise colours are not necessary in order to survive? I had an uncle who was colour blind and he had no problems - except at traffic lights which are unnatural anyway. Why do you think colours exist? By chance?

 

[Ancient_Magicks]

I’ve given you an answer but you’ve rejected it.

If your answer was that Fatima example perhaps you should have read the link I gave with criticisms regarding it. Is there any video footage for what happened there? I don’t think there is since it was in 1917, just asking.

I don’t feel uncomfortable because I also believe God is infinitely loving. A vision of Hell in the sky is hardly likely to inspire that belief!

I certainly would become a believer if a vision of hell appeared to me and everyone else in the sky! That’s as evident as anything can get, and I can assure you, that would end the dialetics about god’s existence, what else could project an image of hell in the sky but god?

Would god himself revealing himself to everyone on national television hardly inspire belief as well ?

BTW You enjoy seeing a blue sky. You realise colours are not necessary in order to survive? I had an uncle who was colour blind and he had no problems - except at traffic lights which are unnatural anyway. Why do you think colours exist? By chance?

By the way mate, that was a bit of a joke, it was not meant to be taken seriously - I am not quite sure what your analytic of my “I enjoy seeing a blue sky” is going.

 

[tonyrey]

I’ve given you an answer but you’ve rejected it.

My answer was that it would infringe on our freedom.

I certainly would become a believer if a vision of hell appeared to me and everyone else in the sky! That’s as evident as anything can get, and I can assure you, that would end the dialectics about god’s existence, what else could project an image of hell in the sky but god?

People would argue that it’s a mass hallucination…
or some trick by an ET. If it were convincing we would lose our freedom as I have pointed out.

Would god himself revealing himself to everyone on national television hardly inspire belief as well ?

The same applies.

 	 	 		 			 				BTW You enjoy seeing a blue sky. You realise colours are not  necessary in order to survive? I had an uncle who was colour blind and  he had no problems - except at traffic lights which are unnatural  anyway. Why do you think colours exist? By chance?

By the way mate, that was a bit of a joke, it was not meant to be taken seriously - I am not quite sure what your analytic of my “I enjoy seeing a blue sky” is going.
Quote:
I don’t feel uncomfortable because I also believe God is infinitely loving. A vision of Hell in the sky is hardly likely to inspire that belief!
I certainly would become a believer if a vision of hell appeared to me and everyone else in the sky! That’s as evident as anything can get, and I can assure you, that would end the dialetics about god’s existence, what else could project an image of hell in the sky but god?

Would god himself revealing himself to everyone on national television hardly inspire belief as well ?

• I am not quite sure what your analytic of my “I enjoy seeing a blue sky” is going.

That survival value is an inadequate explanation of the development of life - but it is off the topic anyway.

 

[bpaynter]

Then perhaps I’m beating my head against a wall trying to understand how God loves. If that is the case, then trying to figure out how I myself should love is equally futile. For Jesus (who is God) tells me to love the very same way that God loves!

But how can I love the way God loves if I don’t know the way God loves? And how can I forgive the way God forgives if I don’t know the way God forgives? And if I don’t know how to forgive as God forgives, do I really want to be forgiven in the same way I ignorantly try to forgive?

Thanks for basking in the light of God with me for awhile, Bpaynter. And please forgive me (if you really understand how to forgive as God forgives) for saying that I cannot help but think that if we allowed our eyes and minds to get accustomed to His light, we might have begun to get a focus on the Truth.

Well said. Keep seeking.
Bpaynter

 

[spockrates]

Well said. Keep seeking.
Bpaynter

Keep seeking by myself, or seeking with your help or the help of others?

 

[spockrates]

So there are supposedly many statements outside the bible regarding Hell, and one of these sources is a revelation by the mother of Jesus.

Why would this have been revealed only to a select few? Does it not make more sense to reveal to all sinner’s a graphical view of hell once and for all so the dialectics about God’s existence not only end, but unbeliever’s can amend their lifestyle?

Why? Perhaps because God is merciful. What do you think, Ancient?



(BTW, I believe you are wise to call yourself an Agnostic rather than an Atheist, or who can truly know for a fact there is no God?)

 

[bpaynter]

Keep seeking by myself, or seeking with your help or the help of others?

I am no philosopher, so my help would be minimal. In fact I am not sure why this thread appeared in the philosophy forum.
I suggest you seek God’s help. Don’t worry about imagining God and His attributes, just ask

 

[spockrates]

I am no philosopher, so my help would be minimal. In fact I am not sure why this thread appeared in the philosophy forum.
I suggest you seek God’s help. Don’t worry about imagining God and His attributes, just ask

Thank you for the help you did offer, BPaynter. Hope to see you around the forum!

 

[archangel04]

Arch:

How do you know God’s mercy ends after death for those eternally condemned?

The purpose in life is to know and love God. If we reject him all the way to judgement, then there is no more mercy. That person has chosen their own destiny by rejecting the Father’s will. I know it hurts to think that some of our brothers and sisters will suffer in eternity, but thats just the facts! Eternal = forever meaning there will be no end. If at one point people will have the chance the leave hell and enter heaven then this would mean that a person must spend a certain amount of time in hell before entering heaven. This belief is wrong for the fact that “time & space” does not exist in eternity (spiritual world), it only applies to our world of matter. This is why it’s so important to always strive to fufill our Father’s will so that we may partake in the eternal feast. If time applies to hell, then time will also apply to heaven and this is just not so, for their is other life or world after heaven, there only is heaven.

 

[spockrates]

The purpose in life is to know and love God. If we reject him all the way to judgement, then there is no more mercy. That person has chosen their own destiny by rejecting the Father’s will.

What you say sounds reasonable, Arch. In fact, it is similar to an answer given to me by a Fundamentalist Baptist years ago when I was in the US Army. When I asked how a loving God could condemn anyone to suffer Hell, Maj. Gary Botts answered,

God is a loving God, but He is also a just God.

He then explained that sometimes God withholds His love for the sake of justice. Do you agree with the major?

I know it hurts to think that some of our brothers and sisters will suffer in eternity, but thats just the facts! Eternal = forever meaning there will be no end. If at one point people will have the chance the leave hell and enter heaven then this would mean that a person must spend a certain amount of time in hell before entering heaven. This belief is wrong for the fact that “time & space” does not exist in eternity (spiritual world), it only applies to our world of matter. This is why it’s so important to always strive to fufill our Father’s will so that we may partake in the eternal feast. If time applies to hell, then time will also apply to heaven and this is just not so, for their is other life or world after heaven, there only is heaven.

Yes, but if forever is unending time, then how can eternity be an absence of time? Isn’t more likely that eternity, rather than being no time, is something beyond time? An analogy might be the difference between two dimensions and three. One would not be correct say that an object with three dimensions has no height or width. For a three dimensional object has both height and width, but also depth. Eternity might be like that–not an absence of time and space, but instead something in addition to time and space. Perhaps what you meant, Arch was that time and space* as we know it *does not exist in eternity?

 

[Zerilos]

Again,

This is a matter of not looking at both God’s mercy and God’s justice.

If there was no eternal consequence to a life of sin, then God’s law would be a double standard.

Why? Assuming that Heaven actually exists, why would god have to justify it’s existence by creating a realm of eternal torture? WOuld couldn’t eternal non-existence be the consequence for disobedience? Why would a loving god proceed with his plans for creation knowing that it would obligate him to eternally torture the significant majority of the individuals he is said to love?

Why hold us to the rigors of the 10 commandments and a life of prayer and a life of the spirit etc etc etc. if there is no real punishment at the end of our earthly lives?

Why would there be an eternal reward if living a life of pride, lust, greed an so forth had no real punishment?

Why couldn’t the severity of the punishment be commensurate with the severity of the offense? Why punish you children with a severity that they could never actually deserve?

Ultimately, it boils down to this, the concept of hell is the perfect for of extortion to con-people into doing you bidding. It didn’t even originate with Jesus, but rather the Persians (some say HIndus).

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Why? Assuming that Heaven actually exists, why would god have to justify it’s existence by creating a realm of eternal torture? WOuld couldn’t eternal non-existence be the consequence for disobedience? Why would a loving god proceed with his plans for creation knowing that it would obligate him to eternally torture the significant majority of the individuals he is said to love?

Why couldn’t the severity of the punishment be commensurate with the severity of the offense? Why punish you children with a severity that they could never actually deserve?

Ultimately, it boils down to this, the concept of hell is the perfect for of extortion to con-people into doing you bidding. It didn’t even originate with Jesus, but rather the Persians (some say HIndus).

I’m given to skepticism regarding anthropoligical interpretions of the source of various religious concepts , still:

It’s odd, but a quick check on some Judaistic sites often indicates not so a parallel of Hell but purgatory - as I understand it, Sheol is where the Catholic understanding of Purgatory comes from, I think

But Gehenna is often held to be the Jewish name for Hell, but only according to certain forms of Judaism as I understand it does it translate as a concept of eternal punishment. But those interpretations are there

Why? Assuming that Heaven actually exists, why would god have to justify it’s existence by creating a realm of eternal torture? WOuld couldn’t eternal non-existence be the consequence for disobedience? Why would a loving god proceed with his plans for creation knowing that it would obligate him to eternally torture the significant majority of the individuals he is said to love?

Why couldn’t the severity of the punishment be commensurate with the severity of the offense? Why punish you children with a severity that they could never actually deserve?

Ultimately, it boils down to this, the concept of hell is the perfect for of extortion to con-people into doing you bidding. It didn’t even originate with Jesus, but rather the Persians (some say HIndus).

I think ultimately Hell is very much what purgatory is if you never can purify yourself, or accept purification - if you go so far as to never accept God - in perpetuity. God’s judgement is based on our judgement/acceptance or rejection of God, I think. Perhaps some actions are of a certain incredibly terrible nature as to only be commited by those who will likely eternally reject God

I also suspect our understanding of the afterlife is limited by our inability to conceive of it as it is - afterall, we’re not there yet

 

[spockrates]

Dear Arch Angel, please come around. The truth is lost, and must be found!

 

[archangel04]

What you say sounds reasonable, Arch. In fact, it is similar to an answer given to me by a Fundamentalist Baptist years ago when I was in the US Army. When I asked how a loving God could condemn anyone to suffer Hell, Maj. Gary Botts answered,

God is a loving God, but He is also a just God.

He then explained that sometimes God withholds His love for the sake of justice. Do you agree with the major?

Yes, but if forever is unending time, then how can eternity be an absence of time? Isn’t more likely that eternity, rather than being no time, is something beyond time? An analogy might be the difference between two dimensions and three. One would not be correct say that an object with three dimensions has no height or width. For a three dimensional object has both height and width, but also depth. Eternity might be like that–not an absence of time and space, but instead something in addition to time and space. Perhaps what you meant, Arch was that time and space* as we know it *does not exist in eternity?

That is a good analogy, but one example that was given to me was of a picture. Imagine a person and behind him are flames, a picture is then taken. The “image” will forever be trapped in that moment, the original image is never subject to change. So in this context eternity can be the same way. There is no tomorrow in the eternal life, for we cannot grow old. Everything in this world from a biological being to a material will be different in one way or another in the next hour, this is because of time, space, and elements. Once we see the Beatific vision, there is no going back from this happiness, and the happiness cannot become “happier” for our happiness if forever trapped in that moment.

Now, if for whatever reason the souls of hell are released to a “happy state”, chance are it won’t be with those who dwell in heaven. Because of them not choosing to do the Father’s will, they will never be able to experience the Beatific vision. They will probably remain in a state of limbo, where they can experience happiness, but not that of heaven. Again that’s only if the dammed are allowed to come out of hell.
.

 

[spockrates]

That is a good analogy, but one example that was given to me was of a picture. Imagine a person and behind him are flames, a picture is then taken. The “image” will forever be trapped in that moment, the original image is never subject to change. So in this context eternity can be the same way. There is no tomorrow in the eternal life, for we cannot grow old. Everything in this world from a biological being to a material will be different in one way or another in the next hour, this is because of time, space, and elements. Once we see the Beatific vision, there is no going back from this happiness, and the happiness cannot become “happier” for our happiness if forever trapped in that moment.

Now, if for whatever reason the souls of hell are released to a “happy state”, chance are it won’t be with those who dwell in heaven. Because of them not choosing to do the Father’s will, they will never be able to experience the Beatific vision. They will probably remain in a state of limbo, where they can experience happiness, but not that of heaven. Again that’s only if the dammed are allowed to come out of hell.
.

What would you say has more life, Arch Angel–a photograph of a living person, or the living person herself?

 

[presidentjlh]

Now, first, let me state that I am not, by any means, an accredited theologian. I am an 18 year old male in college, one who has struggled with sin, although I continue to fight hard. I hope that what I am saying is not contrary to Church doctrine. I am not trying to say Church doctrine is wrong, I am trying to interpret it.

Now, as to the idea of Hell, we, as Catholics, know this:

1. Hell exists. We cannot access it in this life, but it exists.
2. God does not send people to Hell, people send themselves to Hell. This is without a doubt 100% true, for if it were not, God would not be all-loving. An all-loving God does not send people to Hell, but people can send themselves to Hell.
3. Whereas Heaven is physical, mental, and spiritual perfection, Hell is the exact opposite. Therefore, there must be some degree of misery in Hell. It may not be the traditional Inferno-style punishment, but it will not be enjoyable.
4. Heaven and Hell are a final destination, by our standards. Once one ends up in Heaven or Hell, they are there for eternity.

HOWEVER, THERE IS HOPE.

We, as human beings, are not the absolute perfection that is God, and are not able to fully contemplate the concept of “eternity”. In our view, eternity is forever in this realm of time.

But, is this necessarily God’s view of eternity? We will never become all-knowing. Even in Heaven, while we are made aware of so much, God still knows more.

As God has stated in the Bible, a thousand years are but the blink of an eye to Him. Time does not control God, God controls time. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. He has always been, always is, and always will be.

Now, try to wrap your head around the idea of God having always existed. He has never begun, He just is. This is not comprehendable by humans, being that everything outside of God that we experience has a beginning at least at some point in the history of the universe.

But it is nonetheless truth, so we accept it.

So, if God’s existance in time is different than ours (We all had a beginning, our souls were created at a point in time), and God controls time, He must control the concept of eternity.

Therefore, it is possible that God can make eternity…not eternity, if that makes any sense.

Look, I am not saying that God eventually will reconcile all souls in Hell into Heaven. I am saying it is within His power to do so. This is fully compatible with Church doctrine. God has the power to change whatever He wishes about the universe.

If God decided, at one point, “Let the gates of Hell be opened, and let all the damned be reconciled to me,” do you really think the gates will stay closed? The powers of Hell are very great by human standards. Compared to God’s power, however, they are weaker than the smallest dust mite.

So now the question is raised, “Well, if God doesn’t do that, is that really merciful of Him?”

The answer is yes, as, in a way, God has already opened the gates of Hell. He sent down His Son to us to die a most horrible death, all so that we might be able to obtain salvation. If that is not mercy, I don’t really know what is.

If God were to eliminate Hell completely, then why bother trying to please Him? Mercy requires justice. Hell must exist in order for God to be loving. He is not sending people to Hell, He is saying, “You chose to not want Me, and so, you get as you asked.” He is basically giving people what they want.

Why would anyone want Hell though?

This is where I think the idea of God’s mercy shines through even more. I believe that God gives us innumerable chances to be one with him, even right before death. I am well aware of St. Faustina’s vision of Divine Mercy, and as I have researched it, I think there is much truth to it. The Church has accepted it, for starters, meaning it is fully acceptable to believe. Divine Mercy does mean we must ignore the Sacrament of Penance, rather, it brings one closer to Christ. I greatly, greatly, greatly encourage you all to go to Penance and Mass this Sunday and receive the blessings of Divine Mercy.

I think that the idea of Divine Mercy is proof that Hell is not as populated as it seems. I think that it shows that God will do whatever He can to win us over. I definitely think that while the gate to the right path may be narrow, and the gate to the path of destruction may be wide, God’s mercy is so great, that more are able to go through the narrow gate than once believed. I do think that most people go to Heaven when they die. I do know that there are many that go to Hell, but, I think that they are greatly outnumbered by the righteous. Maybe this has to do with my belief that, in general, people do honestly want to be good, but do not know how to get there.

May Christ bless you all and may all experience His wonderful mercy.