S
spockrates
Guest
Yes. And would you say that (2) is not only forgiving, but possibly also merciful? (In the case of the example, for instance, it seems an act of mercy to not report the car theft to the police.)
- Status
P
presidentjlh
Guest
That would definitely be quite merciful of someone to do.
S
spockrates
Guest
True. So then someone might not forgive another in the sense of (3) and yet show mercy in the sense of (2). Also true?
P
presidentjlh
Guest
Indeed. What you say makes much sense.
S
spockrates
Guest
Yes, indeed. And now it’s not such a hard thing to believe that all forgiveness is mercy, but not all mercy is forgiveness. For one might show mercy in the sense of (2) but refuse to forgive (and perhaps rightly so) in the sense of (3). So not all mercy is forgiving in the sense of (3). Do you see?
P
presidentjlh
Guest
…I think I do see it now. Yes, it does make sense. Forgiveness is but an aspect of mercy, but mercy is more than forgiveness.
S
spockrates
Guest
Yes, quite right! (And thank you for pointing out something of which I did not think before now.) They’re like concentric circles; aren’t they? Love is the largest circle, for Mercy and Forgiveness are kinds of love, but not all Love is Mercy or Forgiveness. You and I, for example, might love God without expressing either mercy or forgiveness toward Him. Within the circle of love is the concentric circle of Mercy, which–as you pointed out–encompasses more love than Forgiveness. For not all mercy is forgiveness. And the smaller of the three concentric circles is Forgiveness, which is a narrower, rarer kind of love than mercy. For not all mercy is necessarily forgiveness.
Well done, President! Nicely thought out.
S
Slowlearner
Guest
S
spockrates
Guest
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
I don’t know that it serves any purpose to speculate on how many souls are in hell. I’m definitely more interested in how many souls are going to heaven, and especially if my own immortal soul will make the final cut. There again, I don’t presume too much. It’s better for all of us to be on the safe side, be as good as we can be, and hope His mercy vastly outweighs His justice.
S
Slowlearner
Guest
C
ContegoFides
Guest
I’m not even sure I understand that last sentence - so many negatives I’m having trouble sorting it out.
However, we can know some things about proof and faith. Positivism (science) by its very nature limits itself to that which can be measured. God and faith cannot be measured. Therefore, any proofs of God must be ontological or logical in nature.
In other words, even if you knew 100% of all there is to know you will still need an act of faith to believe in God.
S
spockrates
Guest
S
spockrates
Guest
spockrates;6512566:
Yes, I understand. But pointing out to a skeptic that both you and she are ignorant of 99.999% (and likely much more) of all there is to know is a good way to open her eyes to the possibility that there is proof that will convince her. It’s also a good way to show an atheist that agnosticism is a much more logical point of view.
S
spockrates
Guest
I believe Slow meant that nothing you or I try to tell someone who refuses to believe will have any effect. Some just refuse to be confused by the facts!
Right. We cannot know God exists by deduction. There is, however, extremely convincing evidence to be found by way of induction.However, we can know some things about proof and faith. Positivism (science) by its very nature limits itself to that which can be measured. God and faith cannot be measured. Therefore, any proofs of God must be ontological or logical in nature.
In other words, even if you knew 100% of all there is to know you will still need an act of faith to believe in God.
C
cranster
Guest
I’m still thinking about it.No need to apologize. No offense taken!
I agree with you that it is wrong to say Hell is unjust, for God is just and He made Hell. Knowing that God is just is enough, but it does not help us help those who say He is unjust see the truth. For that we need to have an explanation why Hell is just. Do you have any guesses?
C
cranster
Guest
I believe it has to do with the nature of God, the nature of man, and the nature of sin. God, who is perfect, unlimited, eternal, infinitely holy, and infinitely righteous, can only dispense justice perfectly. God is different than us in that He is the creator, and we are the created, therefore He has a right to call to account that which He created. Our nature is limited, with limited righteousness and limited justice. Sin is an offense against God’s infinite Holiness and righteousness. Some sins are worse than others, and some sins, (mortal sins) deserve death. Since the sins we commit are against one who is infinite, the offense is infinite. The length of punishment must be unlimited, but God is even merciful to those in hell by not giving those there infinite suffering. God burns with hatred against wickedness and sin.
The nature of man is that he is limited but unlike animals who are annihilated at death, man has an immortal soul that persists forever after death, and it will persist in the state of our own choosing. Now is the time for salvation! At death the will is forever set either for God, or against God. No one would reject Him if they saw Him as He is, so we are given a limited time to make our own determination of our fate, whether to live for Him or against Him when we can’t see Him as He is. He is putting us to the test.
Part of the nature of sin is that it distorts. It distorts our perception. It distorts our sense of justice, but even we who have a limited sense of justice consider some offenses severe enough to deserve life imprisonment, or even death. If we consider some offenses severe enough to deserve death, then why doesn’t God have that same right who has a perfect sense of justice. We all know that our justice system is flawed. It’s flawed because it is limited due to our limited nature. Our sense of justice is also distorted by sin because we allow grave injustices like abortion to become law. Due to mans limited nature he is incapable not only of not being able to dispense perfect justice, but to even fully understand what perfect justice is.
If we are both incapable of dispensing perfect justice, and we create unjust laws then what right do we have of crying foul when the one who is capable of dispensing perfect justice does so? What right does the creature have to cry foul of any action of the Creator? We don’t!
Sin distorts our perception of reality. When we live in a state of mortal sin our perception of reality is completely distorted. That distortion is removed through contrition, and repentance through the Sacrament of reconciliation, and frequent reception of the Eucharist. The nearer we draw to God the clearer reality becomes.
God’s justice is tempered by His mercy in part I believe because we truly don’t understand how badly we offend Him when we sin. Jesus said on the cross, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do!” His mercy is infinite since He is an infinite being, and it requires infinite mercy to forgive sins committed by finite beings against the infinite being of God. Those sins committed by the creature against the creator. God has perfect righteousness, and justice, which always has to be in a state of balance. To let wickedness and sinfulness on our part go without perfect justice would create imbalance. There always has to be perfect equilibrium before God. Everything must be in perfect balance and harmony. But because God is an infinitely loving God, He devised a way to both maintain the equilibrium of His justice, and forgive us, so we could be brought to the perfect state which He intends for us. The way God chose to balance His perfect scale of justice was by He Himself receiving the justice which we ourselves deserve and could not satisfy. It also gave Him the opportunity to love as deeply as love could go… all the way, by suffering torture and death for us so we wouldn’t have to.
So instead of looking at the reality that justice must be served before God. Either through Jesus sacrifice of the cross, or by us paying it ourselves through eternal separation from God, justice will be served and the scale of justice will be balanced.
It is only when we want to be our own gods and choose wickedness over holiness and righteousness, and choose to live contrary to the laws of God that we cry foul at the prospect of His perfect justice.
Not even the rich man who asked for Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool his tongue said he had received an unjust sentence. What he did say was “Can I go warn my five brothers so they will not also come to this place of torment?”
Seek the Lord while He may be found, call to Him while He is still near. So rather than worrying about whether an eternity in hell is just or not, why don’t we do whatever we can to avoid it?
The nature of man is that he is limited but unlike animals who are annihilated at death, man has an immortal soul that persists forever after death, and it will persist in the state of our own choosing. Now is the time for salvation! At death the will is forever set either for God, or against God. No one would reject Him if they saw Him as He is, so we are given a limited time to make our own determination of our fate, whether to live for Him or against Him when we can’t see Him as He is. He is putting us to the test.
Part of the nature of sin is that it distorts. It distorts our perception. It distorts our sense of justice, but even we who have a limited sense of justice consider some offenses severe enough to deserve life imprisonment, or even death. If we consider some offenses severe enough to deserve death, then why doesn’t God have that same right who has a perfect sense of justice. We all know that our justice system is flawed. It’s flawed because it is limited due to our limited nature. Our sense of justice is also distorted by sin because we allow grave injustices like abortion to become law. Due to mans limited nature he is incapable not only of not being able to dispense perfect justice, but to even fully understand what perfect justice is.
If we are both incapable of dispensing perfect justice, and we create unjust laws then what right do we have of crying foul when the one who is capable of dispensing perfect justice does so? What right does the creature have to cry foul of any action of the Creator? We don’t!
Sin distorts our perception of reality. When we live in a state of mortal sin our perception of reality is completely distorted. That distortion is removed through contrition, and repentance through the Sacrament of reconciliation, and frequent reception of the Eucharist. The nearer we draw to God the clearer reality becomes.
God’s justice is tempered by His mercy in part I believe because we truly don’t understand how badly we offend Him when we sin. Jesus said on the cross, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do!” His mercy is infinite since He is an infinite being, and it requires infinite mercy to forgive sins committed by finite beings against the infinite being of God. Those sins committed by the creature against the creator. God has perfect righteousness, and justice, which always has to be in a state of balance. To let wickedness and sinfulness on our part go without perfect justice would create imbalance. There always has to be perfect equilibrium before God. Everything must be in perfect balance and harmony. But because God is an infinitely loving God, He devised a way to both maintain the equilibrium of His justice, and forgive us, so we could be brought to the perfect state which He intends for us. The way God chose to balance His perfect scale of justice was by He Himself receiving the justice which we ourselves deserve and could not satisfy. It also gave Him the opportunity to love as deeply as love could go… all the way, by suffering torture and death for us so we wouldn’t have to.
So instead of looking at the reality that justice must be served before God. Either through Jesus sacrifice of the cross, or by us paying it ourselves through eternal separation from God, justice will be served and the scale of justice will be balanced.
It is only when we want to be our own gods and choose wickedness over holiness and righteousness, and choose to live contrary to the laws of God that we cry foul at the prospect of His perfect justice.
Not even the rich man who asked for Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool his tongue said he had received an unjust sentence. What he did say was “Can I go warn my five brothers so they will not also come to this place of torment?”
Seek the Lord while He may be found, call to Him while He is still near. So rather than worrying about whether an eternity in hell is just or not, why don’t we do whatever we can to avoid it?
C
cranster
Guest
Let’s just say after a googol number of years God says enough, I’ll let you out. You are not fit to be in Heaven, and the offer of redemption through the sacrifice of the Cross expired at death. Only those who are redeemed and pure can be there, and since God only created Heaven and hell where would you go?
C
cranster
Guest
My last post is directed to those who say an infinitely long sentence is unjust. With that said, and I’m thinking out loud here. God is timeless, eternal, omniscient, and omnipresent so all things are always present to God. That means that the sins of an unrepentant sinner sit before Him forever. The only thing possible to stand between God and the sinner is the Cross. It’s the only thing that can clean the soul to make it fit for Heaven, But the cleansing power of the cross expires at death. If a person were let out of hell they would still have the guilt and stench of sin that will sit forever before God.
So if the argument is why doesn’t God create a third option. The land of drugs, sex, and rock and roll where people who don’t want to be with God can go and forever do as they please. There is a major problem with that and it concerns a contradiction. The contradiction is since God is everywhere then there is no place that God is not then it is not possible for God to create a place where He is not. So the stench of that unrepentant sin will forever rise before Him with new offenses forever mounting in the land lf drugs, sex, and rock and roll which are always present to God. For arguments sake let’s say He could create that place which He can’t because of the contradiction, and no new offenses were possible. God would still have to smell the stench of sin accumulated in life which remains forever before Him since He’s eternal. There are only two possible places after death. The unrepentant sinner can’t be in Heaven so they must be in hell… forever.
For an unrepentant sinner to be in Heaven in the presence of God would be far worse than being in hell. Hell is the merciful place where those who rejected Him in life will never have to deal with Him again.
So if the argument is why doesn’t God create a third option. The land of drugs, sex, and rock and roll where people who don’t want to be with God can go and forever do as they please. There is a major problem with that and it concerns a contradiction. The contradiction is since God is everywhere then there is no place that God is not then it is not possible for God to create a place where He is not. So the stench of that unrepentant sin will forever rise before Him with new offenses forever mounting in the land lf drugs, sex, and rock and roll which are always present to God. For arguments sake let’s say He could create that place which He can’t because of the contradiction, and no new offenses were possible. God would still have to smell the stench of sin accumulated in life which remains forever before Him since He’s eternal. There are only two possible places after death. The unrepentant sinner can’t be in Heaven so they must be in hell… forever.
For an unrepentant sinner to be in Heaven in the presence of God would be far worse than being in hell. Hell is the merciful place where those who rejected Him in life will never have to deal with Him again.
S
spockrates
Guest
Why not Purgatory?
- Status