S
spockrates
Guest
Why would not Purgatory be a third option–not to those who refuse to repent, but to those who relent of rebellion once in Hell? (Just thinking out loud myself.)
- Status
S
spockrates
Guest
Fascinating! But yes, that makes sense. If God is indeed merciful to those in Hell, then what better way to be merciful than to limit the suffering of the damned? I’d like to explore this idea more fully. Of the ways to reduce suffering, I can, at the moment, think of these:
*]Limiting the time of the suffering
*]Limiting the intensity of the suffering
*]Limiting the awareness of the suffering
Which idea would you like to explore first? or do you have a third idea of how God is merciful to those tormented by the horrors of Hell?
C
cranster
Guest
Because Purgatory is not a final destination. Purgatory is a temporary state of purification for those souls who die in a state of Grace that are not yet pure enough to enter heaven. It is as Jesus said a place where, Matt 5:26, “You will not be released until you have paid the last cent”. Which means there is a temporal punishment due until God’s perfect justice is completely satisfied.
Our works will be tested at death as St. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:13 “his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames”. “Saved” implies the soul is Heaven bound.
As Father Corapi says, "In the end you and I will either be in Heaven or hell… period! For Human Beings and Angels those are the only two final options.
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spockrates
Guest
Why must Hell be a final destination? Why cannot one imprisoned there receive parole to Purgatory? I think you and I must be able to explain why eternal life in prison in Hell is a just sentence, which I think you tried to do earlier. But please repeat your answer briefly for my sake.
C
cranster
Guest
It is the nature of God, human nature, the nature of sin, and how eternity differs from time.
God is unlimited, and we are limited. When we commit a mortal sin against God we are committing a sin against One with infinite holiness, righteousness, and purity. It’s because of who we are offending that determines the the seriousness of sin and the weight of it’s consequences. Our limited nature cannot pay for one single mortal sin committed against the unlimited nature of God. Because God is infinite the offense against God is infinite. An infinite sacrifice would need to be made, but because we are finite we can’t pay an infinite sacrifice. God hates sin more than anything. There is only one who could pay an infinite sacrifice and that is God Himself which the God/Man Jesus Christ did on the Cross. The Cross is the only thing that can remove our guilt and make us pure enough to be in the presence of God. The offer of salvation through the Cross of Jesus Christ expires at death, and there is a very real reason it does, and it concerns the plane of existence after death which I will explain in a bit. We are being tested. God being the creator has the right to test us, and we as creatures deserve to be tested.
God is perfectly just, and our justice is imperfect. We consider some things so grave that we impose either life in prison or death. We impose justice imperfectly because of sin and our limited nature. We can’t even comprehend perfect justice because of both. God will impose justice perfectly. We who are not perfect, and cannot cry foul at the justice of the One who is.
God didn’t come to judge the world but wishes that all men be saved so salvation is won or lost by us. We bear the full burden for our lives. We can’t shift the responsibility or blame to God or anyone but ourselves if we choose to live a life apart from God, and choose to die in a state of mortal sin. If we live and die that way we are telling God that we prefer death to life. God only affirms the decision we have made by the way we lived our lives. By condemning ourselves it means that we have to stand before God and bear the full guilt of our sins and pay the full punishment due for them, and since we are limited we can’t pay the full punishment due for mortal sin committed against the unlimited being of God.
People in hell have chosen to make themselves that way, and there is nothing they can do to make themselves fit for the only other alternative which is Heaven. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross is the only possible way into Heaven, and here is why I believe it has to be chosen while we are alive in the physical universe… why we literally fix ourselves forever at death the way we chose to be in life.
It is simply not possible to change our minds after death, and the reason has to do with time and change. Now is the time of change… time is a measurement of change… things change over time. Eternity is a place of no time, and no time is a measurement of no change. Change is not possible without time. If I can change my mind over time then I can’t change my mind over no time. The concept of time is completely different in eternity. Time can’t be separated into parts. The present, future, and past are/is/was the same. God is said to be pure acting power and all of God’s actions happened at once, instantaneously although they unfolded over time in the physical universe, but happened instantaneously in eternity. People who have had near death experiences report their life review as seeing everything at once without the passage of time. That’s why I believe it is possible for the condemned to proceed immediately to hell, and have a total life review, and judgement because there is not a sequence to the events over time. it all happens at once.
So we find ourselves in the never changing present condition to be in the state we were in at death, and those impure, and in mortal sin are forever that way where they are always fixed to receive the wrath of God. Those in a state of grace are forever fixed to receive the mercy of God. People in a state of grace forever can no longer choose to sin, and those in a state of mortal sin forever cannot choose not to sin. There is no possible state for those in mortal sin but the perpetual now of the separation from and wrath of God. There is no place else to be.
God is infinitely merciful and demonstrated that mercy for us here and now on the Cross in the only time it is possible for us to avail it’s saving power. We must choose it when decision is possible. We can’t choose it when decision is not possible after death. Those in hell are impure and can’t be with God, so they must be separated from God which by definition is hell. No matter where that place is, it is still separation from God, and still hell. Even if the soul were let out and transported to another place, if it’s without God it is still hell. There are only two possible states after death… separation from, or union with God… changeless… forever… The choice is ours.
God is unlimited, and we are limited. When we commit a mortal sin against God we are committing a sin against One with infinite holiness, righteousness, and purity. It’s because of who we are offending that determines the the seriousness of sin and the weight of it’s consequences. Our limited nature cannot pay for one single mortal sin committed against the unlimited nature of God. Because God is infinite the offense against God is infinite. An infinite sacrifice would need to be made, but because we are finite we can’t pay an infinite sacrifice. God hates sin more than anything. There is only one who could pay an infinite sacrifice and that is God Himself which the God/Man Jesus Christ did on the Cross. The Cross is the only thing that can remove our guilt and make us pure enough to be in the presence of God. The offer of salvation through the Cross of Jesus Christ expires at death, and there is a very real reason it does, and it concerns the plane of existence after death which I will explain in a bit. We are being tested. God being the creator has the right to test us, and we as creatures deserve to be tested.
God is perfectly just, and our justice is imperfect. We consider some things so grave that we impose either life in prison or death. We impose justice imperfectly because of sin and our limited nature. We can’t even comprehend perfect justice because of both. God will impose justice perfectly. We who are not perfect, and cannot cry foul at the justice of the One who is.
God didn’t come to judge the world but wishes that all men be saved so salvation is won or lost by us. We bear the full burden for our lives. We can’t shift the responsibility or blame to God or anyone but ourselves if we choose to live a life apart from God, and choose to die in a state of mortal sin. If we live and die that way we are telling God that we prefer death to life. God only affirms the decision we have made by the way we lived our lives. By condemning ourselves it means that we have to stand before God and bear the full guilt of our sins and pay the full punishment due for them, and since we are limited we can’t pay the full punishment due for mortal sin committed against the unlimited being of God.
People in hell have chosen to make themselves that way, and there is nothing they can do to make themselves fit for the only other alternative which is Heaven. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross is the only possible way into Heaven, and here is why I believe it has to be chosen while we are alive in the physical universe… why we literally fix ourselves forever at death the way we chose to be in life.
It is simply not possible to change our minds after death, and the reason has to do with time and change. Now is the time of change… time is a measurement of change… things change over time. Eternity is a place of no time, and no time is a measurement of no change. Change is not possible without time. If I can change my mind over time then I can’t change my mind over no time. The concept of time is completely different in eternity. Time can’t be separated into parts. The present, future, and past are/is/was the same. God is said to be pure acting power and all of God’s actions happened at once, instantaneously although they unfolded over time in the physical universe, but happened instantaneously in eternity. People who have had near death experiences report their life review as seeing everything at once without the passage of time. That’s why I believe it is possible for the condemned to proceed immediately to hell, and have a total life review, and judgement because there is not a sequence to the events over time. it all happens at once.
So we find ourselves in the never changing present condition to be in the state we were in at death, and those impure, and in mortal sin are forever that way where they are always fixed to receive the wrath of God. Those in a state of grace are forever fixed to receive the mercy of God. People in a state of grace forever can no longer choose to sin, and those in a state of mortal sin forever cannot choose not to sin. There is no possible state for those in mortal sin but the perpetual now of the separation from and wrath of God. There is no place else to be.
God is infinitely merciful and demonstrated that mercy for us here and now on the Cross in the only time it is possible for us to avail it’s saving power. We must choose it when decision is possible. We can’t choose it when decision is not possible after death. Those in hell are impure and can’t be with God, so they must be separated from God which by definition is hell. No matter where that place is, it is still separation from God, and still hell. Even if the soul were let out and transported to another place, if it’s without God it is still hell. There are only two possible states after death… separation from, or union with God… changeless… forever… The choice is ours.
S
spockrates
Guest
Yes, I think I see what you mean. Offending a man results in temporary consequences; offending the God results in eternal consequences. I can apprehend that and cannot comprehend a way to reasonably argue against that.
Very well, then. The damned deserve their eternal sentence. Now that this objection is answered, would you like to now address my other question?
Of the ways to reduce suffering, I can, at the moment, think of these:
- Limiting the time of the suffering
- Limiting the intensity of the suffering
- Limiting the awareness of the suffering
C
cranster
Guest
Spockrates,
I’m going to need to think, pray, and read a little on the next set of questions.
I’m going to need to think, pray, and read a little on the next set of questions.
S
spockrates
Guest
No problem. Praying for wisdom is a good way to go.
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
(James 1:5)
When you are ready to continue, let me know. Also if you would like me to give you my ideas and you show me where I’m off the mark, that would be OK, too.
C
cranster
Guest
By becoming man, God gave humanity infinite value. God also considers us children so it is not possible to do something against man alone. All things done to others whether good or evil is done directly to God.
We can only administer imperfect justice, with temporary consequences, where as God will deliver perfect justice with permanent consequences. Even if we put a person to death it is still a temporary punishment because they then face God and they might have, and might not have confessed, repented, and turned to God before death.
First off I would like to make it clear that God’s justice for those who are alive and breathing is His mercy. God’s justice for those who have died in a state of Grace is His mercy. God’s justice for those who die in mortal sin is His wrath.
So for those who say God is unfair about eternal punishment miss the point. If we are alive and breathing God may be found, and God wishes for us eternal life more than we could ever wish it for our selves. Some people just choose darkness over light. It’s truly senseless to complain about punishment when it can be avoided.
Now on to your questions… I’ll do the best I can.
How can you limit time where there is no time? The state of eternal death in the lake of fire is eternal. It takes place in eternal timelessness, and persists forever in eternity. Now there is a place where suffering can be limited in length and that’s in purgatory. The souls in purgatory pray fervently but their prayers are no longer efficacious. They can no longer merit, only those still alive on earth can merit. That’s why it’s important to pray for the souls in purgatory. My understanding is the suffering in purgatory is equal to the suffering in hell. The ocean of difference is those in hell are hopeless, and those in purgatory are just waiting to be purified so they can see God face to face.
So no, the time of suffering what ever that means for those in hell can not be limited.
I believe there is a direct relationship between the chief punishment of hell and God’s mercy to those in hell. The chief punishment is loss. The damned will see God as He is when they are being judged. They will see His infinite beauty, and goodness, and know they will never see it again. God’s mercy to them is that they won’t be in His presence with their shame, guilt, wickedness, unrighteousness. It would be far worse to be in God’s presence in their shameful, wretched, hideous state than to be separated from Him. Saint Catherine of Genoa in her treatise on purgatory said the soul not yet purified would rather cast itself into a thousand hells than be in the presence of God with even the slightest stain of sin. The shame of the damned makes them want to hide from God. The intensity of the suffering is in direct relation to the knowledge that the only thing that can satisfy the soul, and give it peace, and rest is God Himself, and they will forever be deprived of God.
God does not give the damned any more suffering than is required by His justice. God could give infinite suffering if He chose, but will only give what is exactly necessary to satisfy His justice and not a speck more.
I’m afraid that’s not possible, in fact the opposite is true. While we are in the flesh we experience God, and spiritual things as through a glass darkly. When we are in a spiritual state in eternity we will experience all things as they truly are, with perfect clarity. The spiritual world is far more real than the physical world. It is the ultimate reality because God is a spiritual being. This is the dream, and the spiritual world is being awake. Awareness is far, far more acute after death than it is now.
One last thing. The fundamental difference between those in Heaven and those in hell is. Those in Heaven are fully alive, fully free, fully happy, fully joyful, and fully at peace. Those in hell are dead. Since they are immortal because of the nature of the immortal soul God instilled in all of us, they persist only to receive their just punishment. They have no freedom. They can’t even move. They have no peace, no joy, no happiness etc. Nothing in hell is alive. There is nothing there but putrefaction, and decay. All they can experience besides the physical punishment that happens in those parts of the body they used to sin against God with is self loathing, self hatred, regret, and they blaspheme God for ever. They also find themselves in the extremely unfortunate position of being locked up with satan and his minions forever. By all accounts hell is far beyond anyones worst nightmare. God have mercy on us all.
C
cranster
Guest
ShootWhen you are ready to continue, let me know. Also if you would like me to give you my ideas and you show me where I’m off the mark, that would be OK, too.
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, I generally agree, but would add that there are some possible exceptions. For example, when I was younger I made the decision to stop taking Catholic education classes after I was confirmed in the Faith. When the nun who taught the classes found out, she refused to speak to me. I met her in a public place one day and said hello and she did not reply at all. I then decided to leave the Catholic Church. (Not wise, I know, but I was young and foolish.) Thirty years later, after spending much time as a Protestant and anti-Catholic, I returned to the Church I left after discussions at this very forum. Now, who is to say there will be no eternal consequences for that nun’s decision to shun of me? Perhaps I’ll end up in Purgatory and suffer much blood, sweat and tears for my leaving the Church for so long. Is she to blame? God only knows. Am I to blame? Certainly! But if she had been kind and forgiving enough to have spoken to me, I might have never left the Church and the consequences in eternity might be different for me. So I’d say that in some circumstances our temporary judgments of others can indeed have eternal consequences for good or evil.
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spockrates
Guest
S
spockrates
Guest
Is eternity timeless, or time plus? Life itself, it seems to me, requires time. Consider what I’m doing at this very moment. From the time I clicked the Post Reply button until now, I’ve typed 37 words. If there were no time, how could I take the time to communicate to you? And as you mentioned, people in Purgatory take the time to pray. People in Heaven do too, as Saint John the Apostle writes of the Saints praying for us here on earth. Are they not taking the *time *to pray? I think they are.
So in trying to understand you, I think you do *not *mean timeless to mean an *absence *of time. Instead you must mean that in eternity there is something that *transcends *time. Three dimensions are greater–and more capable of sustaining life–than two dimensions. So to eternity must be a fifth dimension–and more capable of sustaining life–than the four dimensions in which you and I live and call height, depth, width and time.
This in no way proves that suffering in Hell has a time limit; it merely suggests that it is *possible *for suffering in Hell to have a limited in duration. Our task is to prove that, although possible, it’s not probable.
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, that makes complete sense to me!
And it reminds me of the words of the righteous prophet who came face-to-face with His Holy God:
“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”
(Isaiah 6:5)
So then, it appears that you believe that God shows mercy by limiting the intensity of suffering in Hell. I think you might be correct, though I’m not yet convinced that simply hiding His presence is the only way He is merciful. Would you also say that God’s perfect and righteous justice demands that there be degrees of punishment in Hell?
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spockrates
Guest
Reminds me of the lyrics of a James Bond film:
You only live twice,
or so they say:
Once in the night
and once in the day.
You only live twice,
or so it seems:
Once in your life
and once in your dreams.
Do you also think it impossible that those in the eternal night would not live twice? Is it impossible that God would allow the damned to dream?
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spockrates
Guest
I think you, Cranster have proven yourself an expert marksman! I’ll let you continue to shoot at the target and ask questions if I think you are missing the mark.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
C
cranster
Guest
I had some very difficult situations with a specific nun in parochial school, but have long since forgiven her. I think one of the best ways to be able to come to forgiveness is by praying for those who have harmed us. I think it’s important to remember that the Catholic Church itself is the Church founded by Jesus, and He promised that the gates of hell will prevail against it. The Church is filled with imperfect people, who frequently sin and fail, I know I do, but the Church itself has not changed in 2000 years and still contains the fullness of truth.
What’s the most important thing here is the Holy Spirit is calling you back, and you are responding. There’s no need for anxiety. You don’t know what was going on with that nun that day. She could have lost someone she loved. Pray for her. I try to do the best I can to take the pain that others have caused me in my life, and turn it around, and offer it as a prayer for the salvation of the one who harmed me. I pray that God will use that pain for their salvation, and use it to bless their life.
S
SSTeacher
Guest
Engaging thread.
I’m a hopeful Universalist. I believe God wants everybody to be saved and so my hope is that everybody will be saved. The declaration that “people send themselves to hell,” which resonates throughout the Evangelical world (and perhaps pervades other faith communities as well) strikes me as curious reasoning. Who in their right mind would do such thing? Who’d choose an eternity of agony? The only people who seem to qualify are those who aren’t in possession of all their faculties. And if people are laboring under such a handicap I daresay God, who created them in His image, will be disposed to give them the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, I’ve no solid objections to the arguments posed by people who choose to believe that the majority of people created by God are in hell through their own fault. People are free to believe whatever they want. I simply hope that the portrayal of a miserable agonizing eternity for many is not one that God will endorse, visions and proof texts notwithstanding.
It seems to me that if even just one person remains outside the love of God at the end of time it will mean that one person has managed to defeat the love of God. And I don’t see how such a situation can reflect God’s complete triumph over evil. If God were no more than a King or Judge then it would be possible to speak of his triumph if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated out of existence. But God is not only King and Judge – God is Father. It’s difficult for me to suppose that any human father could be happy while there were members of his family forever in agony so I find it even more difficult to believe such a thing about God. And no father I know would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. It seems to me that the only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home (cf. Luke 15).
I acknowledge that I could be wrong about this and I do not argue against the judgment that my hope amounts to no more than political correctness. It’s my impression that the majority of people who currently inhabit Christendom do not align themselves with my hope and it causes me no great difficulty to live with that tension. However, as far as Catholics are concerned, my understanding is that the Catholic Church has made no formal pronouncement on the matter so I suppose any Catholic who feels uncertain or troubled about it would be free to hope just as I do.
Cordially,
Mick
I’m a hopeful Universalist. I believe God wants everybody to be saved and so my hope is that everybody will be saved. The declaration that “people send themselves to hell,” which resonates throughout the Evangelical world (and perhaps pervades other faith communities as well) strikes me as curious reasoning. Who in their right mind would do such thing? Who’d choose an eternity of agony? The only people who seem to qualify are those who aren’t in possession of all their faculties. And if people are laboring under such a handicap I daresay God, who created them in His image, will be disposed to give them the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, I’ve no solid objections to the arguments posed by people who choose to believe that the majority of people created by God are in hell through their own fault. People are free to believe whatever they want. I simply hope that the portrayal of a miserable agonizing eternity for many is not one that God will endorse, visions and proof texts notwithstanding.
It seems to me that if even just one person remains outside the love of God at the end of time it will mean that one person has managed to defeat the love of God. And I don’t see how such a situation can reflect God’s complete triumph over evil. If God were no more than a King or Judge then it would be possible to speak of his triumph if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated out of existence. But God is not only King and Judge – God is Father. It’s difficult for me to suppose that any human father could be happy while there were members of his family forever in agony so I find it even more difficult to believe such a thing about God. And no father I know would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. It seems to me that the only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home (cf. Luke 15).
I acknowledge that I could be wrong about this and I do not argue against the judgment that my hope amounts to no more than political correctness. It’s my impression that the majority of people who currently inhabit Christendom do not align themselves with my hope and it causes me no great difficulty to live with that tension. However, as far as Catholics are concerned, my understanding is that the Catholic Church has made no formal pronouncement on the matter so I suppose any Catholic who feels uncertain or troubled about it would be free to hope just as I do.
Cordially,
Mick
S
Slowlearner
Guest
Cranster: I believe the concept of an unjust God and hell are often used by people as one of the justifications to avoid submission to the Lord. It was one of the excuses on my list for many years. However, as a way of thinking, I think it is logically inconsistent or at least shallow. But in terms of apologetics, of saving the lost sheep, I wonder if another rubric for thinking of heaven/hell might be helpful with some people.
Here’s the alternative: rather than view heaven/hell as reward/punishment from God, what if we viewed heaven/hell as simple natural result or consequence? If I choose to climb a mountain, the result is that I have a wonderful view of the countryside. The view is not a reward, it is the result, fruit, or product of my choice and work. If you choose to stay in the valley, you are not punished and the view is not withheld from you. Instead, you simply did not do the work and make the choice to climb and get the view.
Thus, heaven is the endpoint of a person’s decision to journey in the steps of Jesus. Hell is simply death and absence from God, which is the place nonbelievers choose to be.
Under this view, someone might still argue: if God loved us, why would he allow so many people to be foolish and not choose to climb the mountain or, in other words, why did he make man so mistake prone? In response to this I’d say two things. First, I believe all thinking persons inherently wonder: “Is there meaning to my life and does it have consequences.” Thus, the God puts the question in our hearts to search for him. (I believe that nothing else can explain the prosthelytizing of athiests.) Second, anyone with children can understand that you must allow your children to be their own people when they become adults – you cannot control them. God’s joy is our choice of Love.
Spock: I left the Lutheran Church and became agnostic for 25+ years because of an incident somewhat like yours. I was upset that I was not refunded money from a retreat that I could not attend in college. Bottom line is that motives were purely selfish and I was looking for any excuse to make my own rules.
Here’s the alternative: rather than view heaven/hell as reward/punishment from God, what if we viewed heaven/hell as simple natural result or consequence? If I choose to climb a mountain, the result is that I have a wonderful view of the countryside. The view is not a reward, it is the result, fruit, or product of my choice and work. If you choose to stay in the valley, you are not punished and the view is not withheld from you. Instead, you simply did not do the work and make the choice to climb and get the view.
Thus, heaven is the endpoint of a person’s decision to journey in the steps of Jesus. Hell is simply death and absence from God, which is the place nonbelievers choose to be.
Under this view, someone might still argue: if God loved us, why would he allow so many people to be foolish and not choose to climb the mountain or, in other words, why did he make man so mistake prone? In response to this I’d say two things. First, I believe all thinking persons inherently wonder: “Is there meaning to my life and does it have consequences.” Thus, the God puts the question in our hearts to search for him. (I believe that nothing else can explain the prosthelytizing of athiests.) Second, anyone with children can understand that you must allow your children to be their own people when they become adults – you cannot control them. God’s joy is our choice of Love.
Spock: I left the Lutheran Church and became agnostic for 25+ years because of an incident somewhat like yours. I was upset that I was not refunded money from a retreat that I could not attend in college. Bottom line is that motives were purely selfish and I was looking for any excuse to make my own rules.
S
spockrates
Guest
Yes, indeed! No hard feelings any longer. It was a childish decision that drove me away. Indoctrination by some extremely sincere, but sincerely wrong, Protestants that kept me away. I suppose the benefit, now is that I can empathize with others who have left, or have yet to embrace, the true Church. I also know all their arguments, so I can reason with both Evangelicals and Fundamentalists.
- Status