An emptier Hell than most believe?

[spockrates]

Engaging thread.

I’m a hopeful Universalist. I believe God wants everybody to be saved and so my hope is that everybody will be saved. The declaration that “people send themselves to hell,” which resonates throughout the Evangelical world (and perhaps pervades other faith communities as well) strikes me as curious reasoning. Who in their right mind would do such thing? Who’d choose an eternity of agony? The only people who seem to qualify are those who aren’t in possession of all their faculties. And if people are laboring under such a handicap I daresay God, who created them in His image, will be disposed to give them the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, I’ve no solid objections to the arguments posed by people who choose to believe that the majority of people created by God are in hell through their own fault. People are free to believe whatever they want. I simply hope that the portrayal of a miserable agonizing eternity for many is not one that God will endorse, visions and proof texts notwithstanding.

It seems to me that if even just one person remains outside the love of God at the end of time it will mean that one person has managed to defeat the love of God. And I don’t see how such a situation can reflect God’s complete triumph over evil. If God were no more than a King or Judge then it would be possible to speak of his triumph if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated out of existence. But God is not only King and Judge – God is Father. It’s difficult for me to suppose that any human father could be happy while there were members of his family forever in agony so I find it even more difficult to believe such a thing about God. And no father I know would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. It seems to me that the only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home (cf. Luke 15).

I acknowledge that I could be wrong about this and I do not argue against the judgment that my hope amounts to no more than political correctness. It’s my impression that the majority of people who currently inhabit Christendom do not align themselves with my hope and it causes me no great difficulty to live with that tension. However, as far as Catholics are concerned, my understanding is that the Catholic Church has made no formal pronouncement on the matter so I suppose any Catholic who feels uncertain or troubled about it would be free to hope just as I do.

Cordially,
Mick

Extremely well put, Teacher!



And I believe Christ quite agrees, as the revered Saint of Catholics and Universalists alike says:

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

(2 Peter 3:9)

And I have a strong hunch you are correct that no one can defeat His love–not even those who (God forbid!) would be so corrupt as to choose to rot in Hell rather than return such love. The question to answer, then is this: Exactly how does God love those in Hell (few though they hopefully might be)?

 

[spockrates]

Cranster: I believe the concept of an unjust God and hell are often used by people as one of the justifications to avoid submission to the Lord. It was one of the excuses on my list for many years. However, as a way of thinking, I think it is logically inconsistent or at least shallow. But in terms of apologetics, of saving the lost sheep, I wonder if another rubric for thinking of heaven/hell might be helpful with some people.

Here’s the alternative: rather than view heaven/hell as reward/punishment from God, what if we viewed heaven/hell as simple natural result or consequence? If I choose to climb a mountain, the result is that I have a wonderful view of the countryside. The view is not a reward, it is the result, fruit, or product of my choice and work. If you choose to stay in the valley, you are not punished and the view is not withheld from you. Instead, you simply did not do the work and make the choice to climb and get the view.

Thus, heaven is the endpoint of a person’s decision to journey in the steps of Jesus. Hell is simply death and absence from God, which is the place nonbelievers choose to be.

Under this view, someone might still argue: if God loved us, why would he allow so many people to be foolish and not choose to climb the mountain or, in other words, why did he make man so mistake prone? In response to this I’d say two things. First, I believe all thinking persons inherently wonder: “Is there meaning to my life and does it have consequences.” Thus, the God puts the question in our hearts to search for him. (I believe that nothing else can explain the prosthelytizing of athiests.) Second, anyone with children can understand that you must allow your children to be their own people when they become adults – you cannot control them. God’s joy is our choice of Love.

Excellent thoughts, Slow. But I myself, and perhaps Cranster as well, would still like to know if we should believe God continues to love those who so foolishly choose pain and death in Hell over joy and life in Heaven. What’s your opinion?

Spock: I left the Lutheran Church and became agnostic for 25+ years because of an incident somewhat like yours. I was upset that I was not refunded money from a retreat that I could not attend in college. Bottom line is that motives were purely selfish and I was looking for any excuse to make my own rules.

Got you beat by 5 years or so. Imagine what the priest will say when I step in the confessional for the first time in a long time and say, “Bless me father, for I have sinned. It has been (don’t faint) 30 years since my last confession.”

 

[cranster]

Engaging thread.

I’m a hopeful Universalist. I believe God wants everybody to be saved and so my hope is that everybody will be saved. The declaration that “people send themselves to hell,” which resonates throughout the Evangelical world (and perhaps pervades other faith communities as well) strikes me as curious reasoning. Who in their right mind would do such thing?

Who would do such a thing? Those who prefer darkness to light… who prefer themselves to God.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

These are the words directly from Jesus to Nicodemus. “This is the verdict!” This is the pronouncement from God Himself. Because there is no darkness in Him, only light, Jesus only speaks truth because He is within Himself objectively the truth. There is no truth apart from Him. The truth is neither subjective, nor relative. It is one truth and it is Jesus Christ.

The light is diametrically opposed to darkness. They are utterly incompatible. They cannot co exist. God separated the darkness from light at creation, and will again separate them forever at the last judgement.

I think it may be tempting to think that no one would choose to persist in darkness forever, but God Himself who is the only one who knows the depths of the human soul says “but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil!”

the “verdict” belongs to those who persist in a lifetime of rejection of God’s love and mercy, and make a final rejection at death. As I said before it is only in time that change is possible. Souls in Heaven can no longer choose to sin, and those in hell can no longer choose not to sin, although they can no longer do so. The free will of those in life who have exercised it for the love of God will have a final strengthening and perfection of their will at death. The soul in Heaven is perfect and completely filled with light. Sin requires darkness, and if there is no longer darkness there is no longer the possibility of sin. It would not even occur to such a soul. The reciprocal is true of the soul in hell. They are completely filled with darkness, and absolutely devoid of light because they have made a complete rejection of light in life. Love requires light, and without light there is no possibility of love. Hatred belongs to darkness, and love belongs to light. Love will no longer occur to a soul completely filled with darkness, only hatred.

I think an analogy can be made from the physical world to the spiritual world. In the physical world every living thing will eventually be reduced to it’s fundamental state. Time is the catalyst that will reduce every living thing to subatomic particles. In the spiritual world all souls will go completely to it’s fundamental state, but rather than time as the catalyst, it is the exercise of the human will in time that determines it’s eventual fundamental state. It will either move to pure light, or pure darkness. It will move to Heaven or hell. We are destined to make ourselves completely what we are by the exercise of our will. No one in Heaven will be partially filled with light, and no one in hell will be partially filled with darkness. In the end it will either be complete light, or complete darkness… complete perfection, or complete corruption. The second law of thermo dynamics states that everything moves from order to disorder. Physically we are all moving to complete disorder. It’s no different spiritually because of sin. Without the intervention of the Cross we will move to spiritual entropy or complete spiritual disorder. It is a fundamental pattern of God’s creation in nature that holds true in both the physical world and the spiritual realm because of sin. The Cross of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can reverse spiritual entropy.

Of course we are utterly reliant on God’s Grace to get to Heaven, and without Jesus infinite sacrifice it’s not possible, but the extremely good news is that He made it and wishes for all to avail themselves of it.

 

[cranster]

Who’d choose an eternity of agony? The only people who seem to qualify are those who aren’t in possession of all their faculties.

I agree that no one in their right mind would choose such a thing, but I think it’s important to look at the process of how the decision gets made.

First I think we as Christians bear some of the blame for not being holy enough. For not preaching the Gospel with our lives as we should, and I’m speaking first and foremost of myself. So it’s incumbent on us to share the truth of Jesus Christ.

Of course no one in their right mind would choose eternal agony, but what is it that we do choose, and how do we choose it? It’s a process that takes place in gradual steps. Sin compounds sin. The more we give into it the easier it becomes the next time we do it. Each time we sin the less wrong it seems to be until we reach the place where we completely ignore the promptings of our conscience and stop paying attention to it.

We all know the saying “You are what you eat”. If you put something bad in your mouth you’re gonna get sick. The same holds true for the soul. If you feed it something bad it’s gonna get sick. We feed our bodies through our mouth, and I think we feed our souls mainly through our eyes and our ears. It’s what we look at and what we listen to. If we feed it light through reading good spiritual books like the Bible, the lives of the saints etc. and listen to good preaching about how to grow into holiness then our soul is going to grow in light, and life. If we feed it through most of mainstream tv, movies, pornography etc. and listen to the voices of atheistic post modern relativism then we are going to be led more and more away from the light and into sin. We will grow more and more in darkness, and our hearts will become hard where anything goes, and lets face it sin is seductive. It feels good, but it leads to death.

Proverbs 14:12 “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.”

The more we listen to the voices of our culture, and watch most of the garbage that’s out there it’s easy to start thinking it’s ok to shack up with our boyfriend/girlfriend, commit adultery, have abortions, watch pornography, masturbate, do drugs, drink too much, totally indulge self through the pursuit of wealth… the list goes on. This path ends with the eyes turned completely inward towards self, and there’s no light or love there. These things gradually lead to spiritual blindness where we can no longer see the light, and that quiet tinge of guilt which is the prompting of the Spirit is no longer felt. We get to a place where we just do it and stop thinking about it, and that’s the most dangerous place to be. We end up having to adopt an entire world view that accommodates our “life style” so we can live with ourselves. It’s a gradual step by step process of moving from light into darkness. Matthew 6:23, “But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!” The end as I stated in my previous post is total darkness devoid of light and life.

No one would outright choose eternal agony, it is done gradually, step by step.

 

[MastersServant2]

Lately I have come to wrestle with the idea of a Hell much emptier than most consider. That’s not to say there are not hundreds or thousands or millions of souls there, just less than most people believe. I have a couple of points that I can’t quite reconcile when put together and they have to do with mercy, justice, love, and intention.

At Fatima, Our Lady revealed to the children that “souls are falling into Hell like snowflakes.” That sounds terrifying, but then I think back to a few other factors: God, the divine creator, is love- the ultimate, most pure love beyond anyone’s imagination. That being said, we all know there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO love in Hell. I know plenty of very secular people that have a difficult time accepting the truth (no matter how much sense it makes and no matter how much truth is presented to them) of Faith and Christianity and God, but have plenty of love and charity and good-will in their hearts- more than many practicing Christians! This being said, a lack of Faith and the decision not to yield their lives to God would send them to Hell, however, all of their love and good must be taken away for them to be condemned to this fate. For all good and charity and love to be stripped from them on their way to Hell would be to actually CHANGE their souls and change their entire being. This does not make sense. Another point to be brought up is that, while we must trust in God’s justice, it is even more important to trust in His mercy. Is it possible that those with love in their hearts and good-will and charity go to Hell? There is no doubt in my mind that there are some (very few) who did have no love in their hearts and made definitive choices to do and be evil, and they are in Hell, but for those who did possess love, charity, and good-will but still chose to contracept while knowing it was wrong, or engage in unchaste behavior while fully aware of it being wrong, could it be they ended up in Heaven, probably with more time in purgatory?

I would love to hear thoughts on this as it is a topic I’m fascinated with that really could affect the way we view our Faith as Catholic Christians.

May God Bless you, Mary guide you, and the Holy Angels protect you!

What did Jesus say? Matthew 7:13-14
What about Luke 13:23-24
23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there {just} a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6533416:

Engaging thread.

I’m a hopeful

Universalist. I believe God wants everybody to be saved and so my hope is that everybody will be saved. The declaration that “people send themselves to hell,” which resonates throughout the Evangelical world (and perhaps pervades other faith communities as well) strikes me as curious reasoning. Who in their right mind would do such thing? Who’d choose an eternity of agony? The only people who seem to qualify are those who aren’t in possession of all their faculties. And if people are laboring under such a handicap I daresay God, who created them in His image, will be disposed to give them the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, I’ve no solid objections to the arguments posed by people who choose to believe that the majority of people created by God are in hell through their own fault. People are free to believe whatever they want. I simply hope that the portrayal of a miserable agonizing eternity for many is not one that God will endorse, visions and proof texts notwithstanding.

It seems to me that if even just one person remains outside the love of God at the end of time it will mean that one person has managed to defeat the love of God. And I don’t see how such a situation can reflect God’s complete triumph over evil. If God were no more than a King or Judge then it would be possible to speak of his triumph if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated out of existence. But God is not only King and Judge – God is Father. It’s difficult for me to suppose that any human father could be happy while there were members of his family forever in agony so I find it even more difficult to believe such a thing about God. And no father I know would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. It seems to me that the only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home (cf. Luke 15).

I acknowledge that I could be wrong about this and I do not argue against the judgment that my hope amounts to no more than political correctness. It’s my impression that the majority of people who currently inhabit Christendom do not align themselves with my hope and it causes me no great difficulty to live with that tension. However, as far as Catholics are concerned, my understanding is that the Catholic Church has made no formal pronouncement on the matter so I suppose any Catholic who feels uncertain or troubled about it would be free to hope just as I do.

Cordially,
Mick
:thumbsup:Extremely well put, Teacher!



And I believe Christ quite agrees, as the revered Saint of Catholics and Universalists alike says:

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

(2 Peter 3:9)

And I have a strong hunch you are correct that no one can defeat His love–not even those who (God forbid!) would be so corrupt as to choose to rot in Hell rather than return such love. The question to answer, then is this: Exactly how does God love those in Hell (few though they hopefully might be)?

Thanks a lot, Spockrates (very clever screen name, by the way ). Your last question is the puzzler, of course, and I’m unable to declare anything except that I don’t know.

Incidentally, apropos the quote in your signature from Spock – wasn’t that originally something Conan Doyle made Holmes say to Watson? I think I recall in one of the stories…

Vaguely,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6533416:

Engaging thread.

I’m a hopeful

Universalist. I believe God wants everybody to be saved and so my hope is that everybody will be saved. The declaration that “people send themselves to hell,” which resonates throughout the Evangelical world (and perhaps pervades other faith communities as well) strikes me as curious reasoning. Who in their right mind would do such thing?Who would do such a thing? Those who prefer darkness to light… who prefer themselves to God.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

These are the words directly from Jesus to Nicodemus. “This is the verdict!” This is the pronouncement from God Himself. Because there is no darkness in Him, only light, Jesus only speaks truth because He is within Himself objectively the truth. There is no truth apart from Him. The truth is neither subjective, nor relative. It is one truth and it is Jesus Christ.

The light is diametrically opposed to darkness. They are utterly incompatible. They cannot co exist. God separated the darkness from light at creation, and will again separate them forever at the last judgement.

I think it may be tempting to think that no one would choose to persist in darkness forever, but God Himself who is the only one who knows the depths of the human soul says “but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil!”

the “verdict” belongs to those who persist in a lifetime of rejection of God’s love and mercy, and make a final rejection at death. As I said before it is only in time that change is possible. Souls in Heaven can no longer choose to sin, and those in hell can no longer choose not to sin, although they can no longer do so. The free will of those in life who have exercised it for the love of God will have a final strengthening and perfection of their will at death. The soul in Heaven is perfect and completely filled with light. Sin requires darkness, and if there is no longer darkness there is no longer the possibility of sin. It would not even occur to such a soul. The reciprocal is true of the soul in hell. They are completely filled with darkness, and absolutely devoid of light because they have made a complete rejection of light in life. Love requires light, and without light there is no possibility of love. Hatred belongs to darkness, and love belongs to light. Love will no longer occur to a soul completely filled with darkness, only hatred.

I think an analogy can be made from the physical world to the spiritual world. In the physical world every living thing will eventually be reduced to it’s fundamental state. Time is the catalyst that will reduce every living thing to subatomic particles. In the spiritual world all souls will go completely to it’s fundamental state, but rather than time as the catalyst, it is the exercise of the human will in time that determines it’s eventual fundamental state. It will either move to pure light, or pure darkness. It will move to Heaven or hell. We are destined to make ourselves completely what we are by the exercise of our will. No one in Heaven will be partially filled with light, and no one in hell will be partially filled with darkness. In the end it will either be complete light, or complete darkness… complete perfection, or complete corruption. The second law of thermo dynamics states that everything moves from order to disorder. Physically we are all moving to complete disorder. It’s no different spiritually because of sin. Without the intervention of the Cross we will move to spiritual entropy or complete spiritual disorder. It is a fundamental pattern of God’s creation in nature that holds true in both the physical world and the spiritual realm because of sin. The Cross of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can reverse spiritual entropy.

Of course we are utterly reliant on God’s Grace to get to Heaven, and without Jesus infinite sacrifice it’s not possible, but the extremely good news is that He made it and wishes for all to avail themselves of it.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, cranster. You might well be right and I might well be completely wrong. I guess much depends upon one’s understanding of what God is like. I’ve spent some time thinking about this question and I’ve become aware that for me the idea of God as Father takes precedent. That’s my presupposition and I simply can’t help it. However, recognizing that truth is objective and that my conclusion is completely subjective, my stance is that if others find themselves understanding that God’s justice must prevail and consider that it’s impossible for everybody to be saved then I have no answer except to say that I hope it isn’t so. If I’m wrong I believe God will not hold it against me.

I appreciate your contribution.

Gratefully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6533416:

Who’d choose an eternity of agony? The only people who seem to qualify are those who aren’t in possession of all their faculties.

I agree that no one in their right mind would choose such a thing, but I think it’s important to look at the process of how the decision gets made.

First I think we as Christians bear some of the blame for not being holy enough. For not preaching the Gospel with our lives as we should, and I’m speaking first and foremost of myself. So it’s incumbent on us to share the truth of Jesus Christ.

Of course no one in their right mind would choose eternal agony, but what is it that we do choose, and how do we choose it? It’s a process that takes place in gradual steps. Sin compounds sin. The more we give into it the easier it becomes the next time we do it. Each time we sin the less wrong it seems to be until we reach the place where we completely ignore the promptings of our conscience and stop paying attention to it.

We all know the saying “You are what you eat”. If you put something bad in your mouth you’re gonna get sick. The same holds true for the soul. If you feed it something bad it’s gonna get sick. We feed our bodies through our mouth, and I think we feed our souls mainly through our eyes and our ears. It’s what we look at and what we listen to. If we feed it light through reading good spiritual books like the Bible, the lives of the saints etc. and listen to good preaching about how to grow into holiness then our soul is going to grow in light, and life. If we feed it through most of mainstream tv, movies, pornography etc. and listen to the voices of atheistic post modern relativism then we are going to be led more and more away from the light and into sin. We will grow more and more in darkness, and our hearts will become hard where anything goes, and lets face it sin is seductive. It feels good, but it leads to death.

Proverbs 14:12 “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.”

The more we listen to the voices of our culture, and watch most of the garbage that’s out there it’s easy to start thinking it’s ok to shack up with our boyfriend/girlfriend, commit adultery, have abortions, watch pornography, masturbate, do drugs, drink too much, totally indulge self through the pursuit of wealth… the list goes on. This path ends with the eyes turned completely inward towards self, and there’s no light or love there. These things gradually lead to spiritual blindness where we can no longer see the light, and that quiet tinge of guilt which is the prompting of the Spirit is no longer felt. We get to a place where we just do it and stop thinking about it, and that’s the most dangerous place to be. We end up having to adopt an entire world view that accommodates our “life style” so we can live with ourselves. It’s a gradual step by step process of moving from light into darkness. Matthew 6:23, “But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!” The end as I stated in my previous post is total darkness devoid of light and life.

No one would outright choose eternal agony, it is done gradually, step by step.

Yes, indeed, I agree without reservation that it’s a gradual process. “Bad company corrupts good character,” warns Saint Paul, and he’s absolutely right. But nobody notices because it’s the norm in that company.

The sheep and the goats to which the LORD refers in the passage in Matthew 25 strongly suggests that some people will end up with their consciences so seared as not to have the faintest idea of the evil that they’ve done and the evil people that they have become. And when one remembers that this isn’t a parable – that this is evidently what is going to happen – the impact is even more powerful.

Nevertheless, I’m not dismayed. I retain my hope. Now, it is a hope, remember. I’m not suggesting anything more than that. Just a hope.

Hopefully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Incidentally, apropos the quote in your signature from Spock – wasn’t that originally something Conan Doyle made Holmes say to Watson? I think I recall in one of the stories…

Vaguely,
Mick

Yep, I found it. Chapter 6 of The Sign Of Four, 17 paragraphs in:

You will not apply my precept,” he [Holmes] said, shaking his head. How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? We know that he did not come through the door, the window, or the chimney. We also know that he could not have been concealed in the room, as there is no concealment possible. When, then, did he come?​

Elementary, my dear spockrates.

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[cranster]

Here’s the alternative: rather than view heaven/hell as reward/punishment from God, what if we viewed heaven/hell as simple natural result or consequence? If I choose to climb a mountain, the result is that I have a wonderful view of the countryside. The view is not a reward, it is the result, fruit, or product of my choice and work. If you choose to stay in the valley, you are not punished and the view is not withheld from you. Instead, you simply did not do the work and make the choice to climb and get the view.

Thus, heaven is the endpoint of a person’s decision to journey in the steps of Jesus. Hell is simply death and absence from God, which is the place nonbelievers choose to be.

Ok… let’s explore your valley. Let’s say the non believer says to him or herself I can hang out in this little valley, maybe build a nice little house. So I don’t get to see God, I’ve lived without Him all my life… easy peasy. Let’s look at the ramifications of this little valley, and for arguments sake we’ll remove the nasty bits like the lake of fire, wrath for evil doing, and wickedness, and being locked up with the devil which we can’t, but for arguments sake we will.

In this valley “hell is simply death and the absence of God”, but what does that mean? annihilation is not possible since God instilled in us an immortal soul. I’m not non existent, so I exist, and am aware. Now let’s remove God from our little valley. To really understand what that means we first have to look at who God is and who we are. God is everything and we are nothing. Immediately at death the starkness of this contrast will be experienced. God is goodness itself, and everything good comes from God. God rains on the just and unjust alike.

So everything that the residents of the valley took for granted in life and did not attribute to God is removed from the equation. So let’s take away everything good.

First let’s remove oxygen, water, light, the moon, and stars. Now let’s take away soil, plants and animals. Let’s take away food, shelter, and the ability to control temperature. Let’s take away tv, movies, music, and art. Let’s take away all the gadgets we love. Let’s take away the valley. Let’s take away family, friends, and acquaintances. Let’s take away humor, happiness, laughter, joy, peace, and love. Let’s take away freedom, movement, work, goals, and achievement. Oh yeah, hope, dreams, truth, and beauty’s gotta go. Now let’s take away the greatest gift God has given us… LIFE! Now let’s finally remove the main deal, God Himself. The source of everything, and who within His being contains all and everything to an infinite degree for which this little soul was created… absolutely everything this poor little soul craves, and desires. Besides an eternity of things God has in store for those who love Him that are way, way beyond our wildest imagination. Poof… gone. Now unfortunately we have to add the nasty bits.

God desires this for no one. We are utterly dependent on Him for absolutely everything, but it’s what, or more precisely who we risk losing when we persist in disobedience and sin. Personally I think it’s a grave disservice to let people think this valley exists as you’ve described it because I firmly believe it doesn’t. Please don’t misunderstand me I truly don’t mean to offend you, but I think this IS the main issue in life, and it needs to be conveyed accurately, with the same gravity that Jesus gave it. There is not a more important issue in existence than this one.

 

[cranster]

Yes, indeed, I agree without reservation that it’s a gradual process. “Bad company corrupts good character,” warns Saint Paul, and he’s absolutely right. But nobody notices because it’s the norm in that company.

The sheep and the goats to which the LORD refers in the passage in Matthew 25 strongly suggests that some people will end up with their consciences so seared as not to have the faintest idea of the evil that they’ve done and the evil people that they have become. And when one remembers that this isn’t a parable – that this is evidently what is going to happen – the impact is even more powerful.

Nevertheless, I’m not dismayed. I retain my hope. Now, it is a hope, remember. I’m not suggesting anything more than that. Just a hope.

Hopefully,
Mick

Good ol’ Matthew 25. Yikes Step by step in the right direction, we’ll get there. Saints aren’t made in a day. I think we shouldn’t just retain our hope, but firmly cling to it. God wants us with Him infinitely more than we want to be with Him. He’s provided the Grace necessary. I think if He has the power to make us, He most certainly has the power to save us.

 

[spockrates]

… Incidentally, apropos the quote in your signature from Spock – wasn’t that originally something Conan Doyle made Holmes say to Watson? I think I recall in one of the stories…

Vaguely,
Mick

True, Mick, but it was also quoted by Spock in two of the Star Trek films. In one of the films, Spock attributes the quote to one of his ancient ancestors. Since the Vulcans were traveling to other planets while we were still making tools out of bearskins and stone knives, I’d say that Sir Doyle stole the quote from the Vulcans!

 

[spockrates]

Thanks a lot, Spockrates (very clever screen name, by the way ). Your last question is the puzzler, of course, and I’m unable to declare anything except that I don’t know. …

Well, we can’t let a little thing like that stop us. As Socrates said,

We will certainly lose something; by discovering what we are looking for now, we will lose our ignorance about it!

(Philebus 34)

Let’s start with what you and I know and see if that helps us make the trek to the truth we don’t yet know: Love, I’m sure you will agree, is a versatile virtue. She expresses who she is in various affectionate ways. For example, love rewards those who deserve her affections, or she forgives those who don’t. She also shows mercy to those who don’t deserve her embrace by treating them better than they deserve.

I’m sure there are other ways Love expresses herself, but let’s start with these. Which of these three expressions of the lovely virtue do you think might be a possible way God gives Her to those needy damned in Hell? Does He possibly:

1. 
   *]Reward them? or
   *]Forgive them? or
   *]Show mercy to them?

 

[cranster]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, cranster. You might well be right and I might well be completely wrong. I guess much depends upon one’s understanding of what God is like. I’ve spent some time thinking about this question and I’ve become aware that for me the idea of God as Father takes precedent. That’s my presupposition and I simply can’t help it. However, recognizing that truth is objective and that my conclusion is completely subjective, my stance is that if others find themselves understanding that God’s justice must prevail and consider that it’s impossible for everybody to be saved then I have no answer except to say that I hope it isn’t so. If I’m wrong I believe God will not hold it against me.

I appreciate your contribution.

Gratefully,
Mick

God is absolutely a loving Father. Father Pavone said the other day in his homily. For God so LOVED the world, He sent His only Son. Not… For God was so angry with the world, or God hates the world, but God so LOVED the world. This is a love story, and He is a loving Father. He is also a just God, and His justice will prevail. Either in the form of mercy for those of us who turn from our wicked ways, or wrath for those who don’t. I imagine His mercy and justice are intertwined in a way we can’t really comprehend. I think we’ll all be surprised who’s there and who’s not in the end.

I think It’s impossible to imagine what God is like, but knowing how I experience Him in the Eucharist, and other encounters I’ve had in the past. I imagine God to be like infinite beauty, mercy, love, peace, joy, bliss, ecstasy, home, life, the most beautiful bride imaginable… I’m a guy, so even though we are the bride, I think of God’s beauty in the feminine. Can’t help it… and the reality of realities all rolled in to one, but that doesn’t even scratch the surface of His being and essence which He alone can plummet it’s infinite depth. I’ve heard Heaven described as a place where we not only become fully alive, but more and more alive for all eternity. We will grow closer, and closer to His infinite being forever. In His presence is the tree of life, and the river of life, and when we partake of either we become more alive. We will continually experience God’s love in a deeper way forever. The joy, bliss, and ecstasy of being in God’s presence will increase forever. God will continually delight us with new aspects of His infinite being in the forever of the eternal now where it all happens at once, and is always new without end. I’ve heard when Jesus smiles there are millions of the most beautiful tropical, mountain, and forest vistas contained within His smile. His eyes are a blazing fire of love that are completely focused on all as if they were the only one there all at the same time. One of my favorite scriptures is “No eye has seen, and no ear has heard what God has prepared for those who love Him, nor has it even entered the heart of man.” There is a whole eternity of things that are beyond our wildest imagination, and I have a pretty good one. Jesus said “The Father is greater than I”. So I can’t even imagine what it would like to be in the Father’s presence which is our ultimate destination as Jesus said “No one gets to the Father but by me!” Nor can I imagine how we will experience the Holy Spirit… wow! I’ve heard there are millions of songs of worship all going at the same time… all interweaving and in perfect harmony. I can’t wait to see our Blessed Mother, and how beautiful she must be.

Speaking of Heaven…two quick stories. I did missionary work in Mexico in the late seventies at the Lord’s Ranch. There was a member of the community who had cancer… this was before I got there. On his death bed right before he died he opened his eyes wide, and said, “You can’t believe how beautiful it is, don’t count the cost, give Jesus your all!” then he died.

The other is the story of the founder of the Lord’s Ranch. Father Richard Thomas. There is a woman named Ellen who came after I left, but she took care of him when he was dying. He told her several days before he died, “I’m gonna let the Lord beat up on me a few more days, and as soon as I get the word I’m gonna bolt”. Right at the end, he asked for Isaiah 35 to be read then He looked off to the side. She asked Him who do you see? He just started laughing. She said she started CPR, but as soon as she lifted her mouth he started laughing again and looked at her like… just give it up, then he closed his eyes. I think there is a good chance He will be canonized one day. He was a very, very holy man and I was privileged to spend several years with him.

I would much rather talk about Heaven than hell, but since Jesus mentioned hell more than Heaven I think it’s gravely important to understand the reality. I recommend “What every Catholic needs to know about hell”. You can find it on you tube.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6538399:

…Incidentally, apropos the quote in your signature from Spock – wasn’t that originally something Conan Doyle made Holmes say to Watson? I think I recall in one of the stories…

Vaguely,
Mick

True, Mick, but it was also quoted by Spock in two of the Star Trek films. In one of the films, Spock attributes the quote to one of his ancient ancestors. Since the Vulcans were traveling to other planets while we were still making tools out of bearskins and stone knives, I’d say that Sir Doyle stole the quote from the Vulcans!

I’ve a feeling Holmes would probably refer to that as a chronological inexactitude but I’ll accept the Vulcan version.

Timidly,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

God is absolutely a loving Father. Father Pavone said the other day in his homily. For God so LOVED the world, He sent His only Son. Not… For God was so angry with the world, or God hates the world, but God so LOVED the world. This is a love story, and He is a loving Father. He is also a just God, and His justice will prevail. Either in the form of mercy for those of us who turn from our wicked ways, or wrath for those who don’t. I imagine His mercy and justice are intertwined in a way we can’t really comprehend. I think we’ll all be surprised who’s there and who’s not in the end.

I think It’s impossible to imagine what God is like, but knowing how I experience Him in the Eucharist, and other encounters I’ve had in the past. I imagine God to be like infinite beauty, mercy, love, peace, joy, bliss, ecstasy, home, life, the most beautiful bride imaginable… I’m a guy, so even though we are the bride, I think of God’s beauty in the feminine. Can’t help it… and the reality of realities all rolled in to one, but that doesn’t even scratch the surface of His being and essence which He alone can plummet it’s infinite depth. I’ve heard Heaven described as a place where we not only become fully alive, but more and more alive for all eternity. We will grow closer, and closer to His infinite being forever. In His presence is the tree of life, and the river of life, and when we partake of either we become more alive. We will continually experience God’s love in a deeper way forever. The joy, bliss, and ecstasy of being in God’s presence will increase forever. God will continually delight us with new aspects of His infinite being in the forever of the eternal now where it all happens at once, and is always new without end. I’ve heard when Jesus smiles there are millions of the most beautiful tropical, mountain, and forest vistas contained within His smile. His eyes are a blazing fire of love that are completely focused on all as if they were the only one there all at the same time. One of my favorite scriptures is “No eye has seen, and no ear has heard what God has prepared for those who love Him, nor has it even entered the heart of man.” There is a whole eternity of things that are beyond our wildest imagination, and I have a pretty good one. Jesus said “The Father is greater than I”. So I can’t even imagine what it would like to be in the Father’s presence which is our ultimate destination as Jesus said “No one gets to the Father but by me!” Nor can I imagine how we will experience the Holy Spirit… wow! I’ve heard there are millions of songs of worship all going at the same time… all interweaving and in perfect harmony. I can’t wait to see our Blessed Mother, and how beautiful she must be.

Speaking of Heaven…two quick stories. I did missionary work in Mexico in the late seventies at the Lord’s Ranch. There was a member of the community who had cancer… this was before I got there. On his death bed right before he died he opened his eyes wide, and said, “You can’t believe how beautiful it is, don’t count the cost, give Jesus your all!” then he died.

The other is the story of the founder of the Lord’s Ranch. Father Richard Thomas. There is a woman named Ellen who came after I left, but she took care of him when he was dying. He told her several days before he died, “I’m gonna let the Lord beat up on me a few more days, and as soon as I get the word I’m gonna bolt”. Right at the end, he asked for Isaiah 35 to be read then He looked off to the side. She asked Him who do you see? He just started laughing. She said she started CPR, but as soon as she lifted her mouth he started laughing again and looked at her like… just give it up, then he closed his eyes. I think there is a good chance He will be canonized one day. He was a very, very holy man and I was privileged to spend several years with him.

I would much rather talk about Heaven than hell, but since Jesus mentioned hell more than Heaven I think it’s gravely important to understand the reality. I recommend “What every Catholic needs to know about hell”. You can find it on you tube.

A very readable post. Thanks a lot.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6538399:

Thanks a lot, Spockrates (very clever screen name, by the way ). Your last question is the puzzler, of course, and I’m unable to declare anything except that I don’t know. …

Well, we can’t let a little thing like that stop us. As Socrates said,

We will certainly lose something; by discovering what we are looking for now, we will lose our ignorance about it!

(Philebus 34)

Let’s start with what you and I know and see if that helps us make the trek to the truth we don’t yet know: Love, I’m sure you will agree, is a versatile virtue. She expresses who she is in various affectionate ways. For example, love rewards those who deserve her affections, or she forgives those who don’t. She also shows mercy to those who don’t deserve her embrace by treating them better than they deserve.

I’m sure there are other ways Love expresses herself, but let’s start with these. Which of these three expressions of the lovely virtue do you think might be a possible way God gives Her to those needy damned in Hell? Does He possibly:

1. 
   *]Reward them? or
   *]Forgive them? or
   *]Show mercy to them?

1. 
   If we’re both thinking about love as agape love, then, I guess I’d start off by saying that it means total commitment i.e. love with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and perhaps throw in the description Saint Paul provided in the love chapter, as it’s so called: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self–seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
   
   So this is the yardstick, then? You can correct me if I’m awry.
   
   So, based on these ideas, I guess it’s possible to say that the love of God could be described as 100% of God. That would be more powerful than anything humans could imagine (dunno about Vulcans, but I’ll assume that if they stoop to historical revisionism, they’d probably be in pretty much the same boat as we are ). So if God’s love prompts Him to reward, forgive, and show mercy to all (by His very nature he can’t do anything else as far as His creatures are concerned) then since some end up in heaven and some end up in hell (assuming hell is populated) the different states people are experiencing must be something to do with the reaction of different individuals to the love of God when they come into His presence. Doesn’t Catholicism embrace a belief that is referred to as the Beatific Vision? I read an Orthodox viewpoint somewhere or other (that’s probably a reflection of an old idea), which suggested that heaven or hell are states that simply reflect the individual’s reaction to the love of/presence of God – since God is love (cf. 1 John 4:8, 16), His love and His presence amount to the same thing. It was something along those lines, anyway. Not sure if that gets me anywhere, though.
   
   However, viewed from a child’s perspective, which is how Jesus told us to live, I would say that hell doesn’t sound like any kind of reward since it involves great pain and suffering; that hell doesn’t sound like forgiveness but more like punishment; and that hell doesn’t sound like mercy being shown since mercy is being given what one doesn’t deserve. Now, perhaps that means I’m not thinking about agape love but that I’m simply being sentimental? Sounds as though you may be able to teach me something, though. Take me through it slowly and I’ll do my best to keep up.
   
   Incidentally, I just got back from Vespers (so a blessed LORD’S Day to you ) and I’ve some stuff to do so I’m off the computer now until late tomorrow afternoon at the earliest.
   
   Busily,
   Mick
   

 

[cranster]

I’m sure there are other ways Love expresses herself, but let’s start with these. Which of these three expressions of the lovely virtue do you think might be a possible way God gives Her to those needy damned in Hell? Does He possibly:

1. 
   *]Reward them? or
   *]Forgive them? or
   *]Show mercy to them?

1. 
   Reward them? I don’t know anyone who rewards their children when they do wrong unless they have serious emotional issues. If we who are imperfect wouldn’t reward our children when they do wrong then why would God who is perfect?
   
   Forgive them? God forgave all humanity on the Cross. The problem doesn’t lay with the forgiver. It lies with the forgivee. If the forgivee rejects the forgiveness then the forgiver can’t be blamed for the rejection. If the forgivee rejects the forgiveness in life and forever in hell then what good does the forgiveness do them? God never stops loving any of His children, but some of His children stop loving Him.
   
   Show mercy to them? God shows His mercy towards them by depriving them of His presence which they hate. He shows His mercy towards them by only giving them the punishment that will satisfy Divine justice and no more.

 

[spockrates]

I’ve a feeling Holmes would probably refer to that as a chronological inexactitude but I’ll accept the Vulcan version.

Timidly,
Mick

LOL! Is that anything like Jessie Jackson saying Bill Clinton had not lied but had committed a terminological inexactitude? But regarding the quote of my signature, Socrates has something relevant to say:

In any case, the question we’ve got to consider is not who said it, but whether or not the statement is true.

(Charmides, 161)

 

[Ahimsa]

Is it possible at all that the fate of a person can be changed after his death? Is death that border beyond which some unchangeable static existence comes? Does the development of the human person not stop after death?

On the one hand, it is impossible for one to actively repent in hell; it is impossible to rectify the evil deeds one committed by appropriate good works. However, it may be possible for one to repent through a ‘change of heart’, a review of one’s values. One of the testimonies to this is the rich man of the Gospel we have already mentioned. He realized the gravity of his situation as soon as found himself in hell. Indeed, if in his lifetime he was focused on earthly pursuits and forgot God, once in hell he realized that his only hope for salvation was God[76] . Besides, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, the fate of a person after death can be changed through the prayer of the Church. Thus, existence after death has its own dynamics. On the basis of what has been said above, we may say that after death the development of the human person does not cease, for existence after death is not a transfer from a dynamic into a static being, but rather continuation on a new level of that road which a person followed in his lifetime.

Note: when the author, a bishop in the Orthodox Church, speaks of “hell”, what he is referring to is the original meaning of “hell”, which is the place of the dead (“hades” in Greek; “sheol” in Hebrew).