An EV comments on the ongoing struggle between Catholics and LDS.

[SteveVH]

SteveVH;7089758:

…

I believe that God is a mystery; that we struggle to contain him in the words of man and are never successful at doing such.

We agree. I would go so far as to say that anything we say when trying to explain “God” can only diminish who He truly is.

To me I just take the scripture for what it saids. He made us in his image and likeness. He does not say we are identical, but that he made us in his image and in his likeness. I do not expand upon it or limit it. We are not identical; he is our Creator.

I admire your humility, JeanMichel. It is a great quality and one that is lacking too often on this forum. Herein lies the problem though. Do you have the training and education to be able to decipher, from books that were written thousands of years ago, by people in a completely different time and culture, who used various genre’s of writing, some poetic, some prophetic, some allegorical, some literal, some purely visionary? I certainly do not. It is why I must depend on some authority, and to be absolutely certain, an infallible authority, to guide me in my interpretation. How can we know that we are taking “the scripture for what it says” if we cannot be certain we really know what it says? To claim that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is infallible in its interpretation of Sacred Scripture is not a bragging right. It is a gift of the Holy Spirit and is a necessary compliment to an inerrant set of books which comprise Sacred Scripture. What would be the point in giving us truth if we cannot, with certainty, know and understand that truth?

I guess I am too much of a free spirit. When I hear a Catholic speak on the Trinity and Mormons speak on the Godhead I am quite capable of distinguishing differences, but I see that they both are talking about the same three persons. The Father is still the Father, Jesus is still Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is still the Holy Spirit.

As a great example of what I said above, we are not talking about the same three persons. Mormon theology is polytheistic, claiming that they are three separate gods. Christian theology claims that there is only one God, consisting of three distinct Persons. This is not a trivial difference.

To go beyond that position is beyond everyone’s understanding. Mormons don’t have a doctrine that goes beyond it. I take them at their word that questions like: God having a father, living as a man, is only a man, etc. are not in their scriptures, but were stated by past prophets or leaders.

Oh, but they do go beyond it. “God was once as we are now. We will be as God now is.” (my paraphrase). This is still Mormon doctrine. They believe that God progressed from human to divine and that we will follow suit. If I am wrong, I’m sure we’ll hear about it.

Mormons seem capable of disqualifying the statements of their past leaders. They have no concept of infallibility of their prophets. If they don’t teach it, then that is good enough for me. What I like about the Mormons are their teachings on the family, their willingness to send young men and women into the world as missionaries, the seeking for holiness, and their love of God. What I don’t like about Mormons is their leaders seem to say some pretty silly things at times and I am not sure I envision men of God being so silly.

If the validity of our beliefs were based upon being nice people I would have headed over to the local ward years ago. Truth does not change. When one speaks as a prophet and is later found to be in error, he is a false prophet. In the days of the Old Testament, he would have been stoned to death. Mormon truth seems to change with every wind, especially when their “truth” is in violation of the law. The early Christians preferred being ripped apart by wild animals rather than changing their beliefs which were in violation of Roman law. They did not claim some “new revelation” in order to save their hides.

First off, I am not affiliated with any specific organized relation. I find them all lacking in the simple ability to worship and adore God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Too much time is spent on “other churches” and their beliefs. I have a single goal in this life: To find, absorb, and live all truth. I am pained by the disunity among Christians; their lack of respect for one another. There is nothing, NOTHING, greater than the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ. Why so many want to dismiss those that possess that great truth and still reject each another because of minor misundestandings is unprofitable and destructive to the Body of Christ.

The Christ you speak of started a Church. “Upon this rock I will build MY church.” We can trace our heritage, through historical documents, to Peter who received the keys to the kingdom of heaven. This Church has not changed its doctrines since its inception, regardless of claims by those outside of the Church to the contrary. It can be demonstrated that He promised His Church that He would never leave it and would send the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth. It is not as simple as picking up a Bible (which is a Catholic document by the way) and figuring it out for ourselves.

God bless you JeanMichel. You have a wonderful heart and a sincere love for God and because of that He will bless you.

Steve

 

[catholic-rcia]

I feel as if this is appropriate here. From the Catechism

**IV. THE IMPLICATIONS OF FAITH IN ONE GOD **

**222 **Believing in God, the only One, and loving him with all our being has enormous consequences for our whole life.

**223 **It means coming to know God’s greatness and majesty: "Behold, God is great, and we know him not."46 Therefore, we must “serve God first”.47

**224 **It means living in thanksgiving: if God is the only One, everything we are and have comes from him: "What have you that you did not receive?"48 "What shall I render to the LORD for all his bounty to me?"49

**225 **It means knowing the unity and true dignity of all men: everyone is made in the image and likeness of God.50
**226 **It means making good use of created things: faith in God, the only One, leads us to use everything that is not God only insofar as it brings us closer to him, and to detach ourselves from it insofar as it turns us away from him:

My Lord and my God, take from me everything that distances me from you.
My Lord and my God, give me everything that brings me closer to you.
My Lord and my God, detach me from myself to give my all to you.51
**227 **It means trusting God in every circumstance, even in adversity. A prayer of St. Teresa of Jesus wonderfully expresses this trust:

Let nothing trouble you / Let nothing frighten you
Everything passes / God never changes
Patience / Obtains all
Whoever has God / Wants for nothing
God alone is enough.52

 

[Stephen168]

First off, I am not affiliated with any specific organized relation. I find them all lacking in the simple ability to worship and adore God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Too much time is spent on “other churches” and their beliefs. I have a single goal in this life: To find, absorb, and live all truth. I am pained by the disunity among Christians; their lack of respect for one another. There is nothing, NOTHING, greater than the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ. Why so many want to dismiss those that possess that great truth and still reject each another because of minor misundestandings is unprofitable and destructive to the Body of Christ.

I also thought you were Mormon because you make historical claims I’ve only heard from restoration movement religions and you make claims about the early church fathers I’ve only heard from Mormons. All not true.

Good luck in your search for truth but remember; being relative is not truth and being contrary is not truth.

 

[JeanMichel]

I also thought you were Mormon because you make historical claims I’ve only heard from restoration movement religions and you make claims about the early church fathers I’ve only heard from Mormons. All not true.

Good luck in your search for truth but remember; being relative is not truth and being contrary is not truth.

No problems. I have a varied religious background, but as I stated above, organized religions tend to lose their focus on worship and choose to fight among themselves.

If I have stated anything about the ECF that is false, please let me know. I have read their records several times and some I have found some of them to be great friends that always call me back for a visit. I have studied many denominations in depth and others less so. I have no allegiance to a single church, but I have found truth in most of them and can appreciate them. Even better, I have learned something from each of them. Of all of them, I have an affinity for the Eastern Orthodox due to their search for holiness, even more so than Mormons and they do it in a wonderfully peaceful, forthright manner.

I don’t believe that truth is relative. Truth is either absolute or it is not truth. I have found I can find commonality with almost any Christian or religious person and through that commonality we can worship together. I hunger for unity among all Christians, but it seems like it is not an achievement that will be in the near future.

Please don’t forget to let me know what I said about the ECF that was not true.

 

[dianaiad]

The only honest and true faith is that which was given to the Church by Jesus, through the Apostles, and has remained unchanged down through the ages. My word and say so may not carry any weight, but when Ignatius, Clement, Commmodianus, Basil, Augustine, Thomas, Newman, Hahn, Grodi, and many other theologians and scholars who know of what they speak, you, and others, should listen.
PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Why?

 

[dianaiad]

I don’t believe that truth is relative. Truth is either absolute or it is not truth. .

This is a very profound statement, JeanMichel…and it is one that is often ignored. Truth Is absolute, and remains true, just as a diamond mounted in a rhinestone necklace remains a diamond in spite of its surroundings.

For instance, if it is true that it is good for a mother to love and care for her children, does that truth change if the mother is Muslim, or Christian, or Hindu? I believe that almost every religion on the planet has, at its base, some form of the golden rule; does that rule become untrue because a Budhist believes in it as well as a Muslim or a Jew?

I’m reminded of that parable of the pearl of great price that the merchant, when he saw it, went and sold all that he had so that he could buy the field in which it lay. The field was nice, I imagine–but its sole purpose and value lay in the pearl buried in it.

When I look at those people who go after other faiths, I most often see a tendency to confuse the field with the pearl. There are the believers, who think that everything they think and believe becomes true because they ALSO have this ‘pearl,’ and everything they hang around it becomes true also, by association–not one pearl, but a field of them.

Most often, though, I see the opposite. People who look at other faiths and can see only the dirt clods–and dismiss the pearl there as simply another bit of dirt–by contamination.

 

[Javl]

Why?

Because they know, have, and teach the truth as given by God from the Creation down to and through the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[dianaiad]

Because they know, have, and teach the truth as given by God from the Creation down to and through the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

How do you know that? (and no, I’m not being difficult. Serious question, here.)

 

[LongJourney]

How do you know that? (and no, I’m not being difficult. Serious question, here.)

How do YOU know that the BoM is true? We make small leaps of faith, you make HUGE ones.

 

[SteveVH]

How do you know that? (and no, I’m not being difficult. Serious question, here.)

The promises that Jesus Christ made concerning His Church to remain with it and not leave it orphaned and His gift of the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth is how we know. His promises are reliable and trustworthy, regardless of the weakness and sinfulness of human beings. It is His Church, not man’s. His Church, the one built on the rock of Peter, cannot and will not fail.

 

[dianaiad]

How do YOU know that the BoM is true? We make small leaps of faith, you make HUGE ones.

I don’t see that it is any bigger. However, LJ…do you know that the writings of these men are accurate through the same process that I have come to have faith in the Book of Mormon? Most people spend a great deal of time making fun of us for this idea of…y’know, asking God about it.

 

[LongJourney]

The most pre-eminent theologians of the Catholic Church have been cross-checked with each other and the Bible. They all support each other and the Bible and the Traditions of the church. It is not a matter of praying over their writings and asking if they are true.

In contrast, there are no writings which support the BoM, other than the sections copied form the Bible (complete with errors in JS;s KJV), in the time and cultural context to which Mormons ascribe to it. The Book of Abraham has been established as not being derived from the Egyptian funerary scrolls. There are plenty of parallels between the BoM and texts available to JS & Co, The BoM and the Pearl of Great Price are mutually contradictory, and contain many internal contradictions.

Therefore, the two sets of writings cannot be equated. Case closed.

 

[dianaiad]

The most pre-eminent theologians of the Catholic Church have been cross-checked with each other and the Bible. They all support each other and the Bible and the Traditions of the church. It is not a matter of praying over their writings and asking if they are true.

In contrast, there are no writings which support the BoM, other than the sections copied form the Bible (complete with errors in JS;s KJV), in the time and cultural context to which Mormons ascribe to it. The Book of Abraham has been established as not being derived from the Egyptian funerary scrolls. There are plenty of parallels between the BoM and texts available to JS & Co, The BoM and the Pearl of Great Price are mutually contradictory, and contain many internal contradictions.

Therefore, the two sets of writings cannot be equated. Case closed.

LJ, since there are a great many people who disagree with you on this, the case is very much…NOT 'closed."

while you are certainly free to have your own opinion on this issue, and I honor that opinion…

just how receptive would you be to this statement: “Christians started speculating and going away from the simple truths of Christ’s teachings very soon after the apostles died, and since they no longer believed that God spoke to their leaders through revelation the way He did in the time of the apostles, they drifted further and further away, letting their own flawed reasoning to lead them further, until today the very thought of reading, pondering and actually asking God about religious truth gives them the willies. Therefore they are false. Case closed.”

I believe that the above statement would be…unlikely…to get you to discuss issues such as revelation, doctrine, etc.

Dunno why you have problems seeing that making such absolute proclamations to someone who thinks they are absolutely incorrect does not prove them true.

 

[LongJourney]

just how receptive would you be to this statement: “Christians started speculating and going away from the simple truths of Christ’s teachings very soon after the apostles died, and since they no longer believed that God spoke to their leaders through revelation the way He did in the time of the apostles, they drifted further and further away, letting their own flawed reasoning to lead them further, until today the very thought of reading, pondering and actually asking God about religious truth gives them the willies. Therefore they are false. Case closed.”

Yes, I have studied the apostasy issue, which you accept on faith. Given the early problems the Church had with Gnostic heresy, and the Gnostic aspects of the Mormon faith, I have come to the belief that your faith is a revival of that apostasy.

Have a good evening. There is no :newidea: on this earth. Just recycled old ones.

 

[Javl]

How do you know that? (and no, I’m not being difficult. Serious question, here.)

Man is a reasoning animal who depends upon reason and logic for his very existence. By reason and logic, God has met all of our criteria and therefore we believe in and accept Him and His existence.

Since we know that truth is the expression of an idea in the mind of God, whatever is revealed to us by Him is absolute truth. If He says it is so, it is so, since He Himself is truth. Therefore, whatever is written ( recorded ) in the scriptures ( the Bible ) is true since all that is in the scriptures has its origin with God.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

LJ, since there are a great many people who disagree with you on this, the case is very much…NOT 'closed."

while you are certainly free to have your own opinion on this issue, and I honor that opinion…

just how receptive would you be to this statement: “Christians started speculating and going away from the simple truths of Christ’s teachings very soon after the apostles died, and since they no longer believed that God spoke to their leaders through revelation the way He did in the time of the apostles, they drifted further and further away, letting their own flawed reasoning to lead them further, until today the very thought of reading, pondering and actually asking God about religious truth gives them the willies. Therefore they are false. Case closed.”

I believe that the above statement would be…unlikely…to get you to discuss issues such as revelation, doctrine, etc.

Dunno why you have problems seeing that making such absolute proclamations to someone who thinks they are absolutely incorrect does not prove them true.

That example statement you have given is speculation. It has been proven over and over again and again that there has been NO APOSTACY in the Church. What truths have been given by Jesus to the Apostles and His followers are the exact same truths that are given and taught today by the Church. Individuals within the Church may have apostacized but the Church has never, and cannot and will not apostacize.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[LongJourney]

That example statement you have given is speculation.

And hog-wild theological speculation is characteristic of Gnosticism.

 

[catholic-rcia]

dianaiad

There is another level to all of this, just on the other side of these forums. This is like the movie of the grapes of wrath. In the beginning its all in black and white. the other side of the forum is where it turns to color. When you begin to accept this faith. At that point you are willing to give up position, even family and freinds. You find them all in Jesus.

Lova ya
In Christ
**Rich **
**www.utahmission.com **

 

[LongJourney]

Rich, what is your experience with those who go from rejection of LDS directly to Catholicism, compared to those who have a latency period of agnosticism?

 

[flyonthewall]

The most pre-eminent theologians of the Catholic Church have been cross-checked with each other and the Bible. They all support each other and the Bible and the Traditions of the church. It is not a matter of praying over their writings and asking if they are true.

Of course they would agree with each other and the traditions of the church. What would happen if they didn’t? They would be labeled Heretics and …whatever happens to heretics.