An Evangelical Manifesto

[Della]

whats wrong with that? almost every religion does not speak as a unified front. not even islam. nor judaism.

Judaism doesn’t claim to be a final revelation. Many (certainly not all) of their number are awaiting the Messiah. The history of Judaism since the destruction of the Temple tells us why they have no central authority, as well.

As for Islam, it claims to be the final revelation but Mohammed had no authority to establish a central body guided by the Holy Spirit to engage the world and its needs until the end of time. Nor does Islam claim to have one. Thus, there are divisions all claiming they are the way Muslims ought to believe.

We have the same thing in Protestant Christianity–many voices all claiming, without any God-given authority, to have the “true” version of Christianity. In fact, only the Catholic Church makes the bold claim that it has direct God-given authority to decide matters of faith and morals because it was established by the One who died and rose from the dead, the beginning and the end, as Christ described himself to John in Revelation.

As to the Evangelical Manifesto, it’s not the first of its kind. Other efforts have been made to unify all “Bible believing” Christians so as to present a unified front to the world. But it always fails because one of their strongest tenets is no central truth and no central authority. It’s self-defeating.

 

[Church_Militant]

This is an interesting statement.

Behind this affirmation is the awareness that identity is powerful and precious to groups as well as to individuals. Identity is central to a classical liberal understanding of freedom. There are grave dangers in identity politics, but we insist that we ourselves, and not scholars, the press, or public opinion, have the right to say who we understand ourselves to be. We are who we say we are, and we resist all attempts to explain us in terms of our ―“true” motives and our ―“real” agenda.

IOW, take this at face value?

I can do that so far as the document goes, but here again, how do we respond to those who perhaps differ with the things that this document says?

Orrrrrrrr, those who interpret this document differently than the authors intend? I think this really kind of pegs the authority issue between Catholics and Evangelicals.

 

[AgnosTheist]

But one issues that they all agree on? What about on issues that they are all against?

One of their reasons for writing this manifesto is to clean up the name “Evangelical”. For now I dont think it would help that cause if they reminded us the stuff they are against. As some of them are not politically correct.

Are there issues that this God sees as sin, no matter what? Are there issues that this God expects everyone to accept and beleive? Yes. This God does expect us to see some things as sin at all times and He expects us to accept some things as doctrine at all times. Why should we not speak from a position of unity on these things?

what kinds of issues? like contraception & stem cell research? if so, evangelicals dont believe in church infallibility. so cant expect them making official religious comments on every issue.

The fact that not all faiths are unified within themselves points to two issues: either they are full of humans or they are not true reflections of God. Judaism is the former…

what do you mean ‘full of humans’? isnt everyone full of humans?

 

[PaulDupre]

Here’s the root of the Evangelical problem:

Fourth, we believe that Jesus’ own teaching and his attitude toward the total truthfulness and supreme authority of the Bible, God’s inspired Word, make the Scriptures our final rule for faith and practice.

Exactly what was Jesus’ own teaching and attitude about the supreme authority of the bible as the final rule of faith and practice? I have never seen those words of Jesus in the NT.

And whose interpretation of the bible is supreme? Since each Evangelical is free to interpret the bible for himself in any way he wishes, there is no supreme rule of faith and practice other than one’s own self.

Without an authoritative magisterium with apostolic succession, guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit, to interpret the scriptures there is no real rule of faith and practice at all. This is evident in the confusion and continual multiplication of opposing sects in the Evangelical movement.

Paul

 

[AgnosTheist]

In fact, only the Catholic Church makes the bold claim that it has direct God-given authority to decide matters of faith and morals

but thats just a claim. i dont think its right judge someone else according to your own personal claims.

 

[Mike_Brick]

Thanks for starting this thread. I have read the Manifesto and find much that we can have in common if this document speaks for more than just the steering committee. However it begins with and is formed around classic and late reformation Protestant thinking and misinformation about the Church. The irony of this thinking becomes clearer when considering the writing of Martin Luther in a letter to Pope Leo X, where he wrote: “I never approved of a schism nor will I approve of it for all eternity…That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted…Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church we can make her better…there is no sin no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body”, (Letter written January 6, 1519, Facts About Luther, by Patrick O’Hare, pg. 356) Some issues of concern I found in the Manifesto are:

“There are grave dangers in identity politics, but we insist that we ourselves, and not scholars, the press, or public opinion, have the right to say who we understand ourselves to be”, (pg. 4). The steering committee, which wrote this “Evangelical Manifesto”, like so many of our separated brethren, still hold to the mistaken belief that each and every individual can believe what they want to believe; that the individual is their own pope so to speak. As we all know that belief has led to the many, many factions which have seriously torn the “Body of Christ”, the visible Church He established on earth.

“To be Evangelical, and to define our faith and our lives by the Good News of Jesus as taught in Scripture, is to submit our lives entirely to the lordship of Jesus and to the truths and the way of life that he requires of his followers, in order that they might become like him, live the way he taught, and believe as he believed”, (pg. 5) …“Fourth, we believe that Jesus’ own teaching and his attitude toward the total truthfulness and supreme authority of the Bible, God’s inspired Word, make the Scriptures our final rule for faith and practice”, (pg. 6). Sadly, this document is typically “Protestant” in that they limit themselves to learning only from the written Word of God, (sola scriptura), throwing out over 1500 years of Church/Christian understanding and history for a belief not found anywhere in Holy Scripture, which they claim to be their only authority.

“To be Evangelical is therefore not only to be deeply personal in faith, strongly committed to ethical holiness in life, and marked by robust voluntarism in action, but to live out a faith whose dynamism is shaped unashamedly by truth and history”, (pg 10). This is a noble goal for all Christians to not only “have” faith, but to unashamedly live out that faith in their daily life.

“We confess that we Evangelicals have betrayed our beliefs by our behavior. All too often we have trumpeted the gospel of Jesus, but we have replaced biblical truths with therapeutic techniques, worship with entertainment, discipleship with growth in human potential, church growth with business entrepreneurialism, concern for the church and for the local congregation with expressions of the faith that are churchless and little better than a vapid spirituality, meeting real needs with pandering to felt needs, and mission principles with marketing precepts. In the process we have become known for commercial, diluted, and feel-good gospels of health, wealth, human potential, and religious happy talk, each of which is indistinguishable from the passing fashions of the surrounding world”, (pg. 11)… All too often we have been seduced by the shaping power of the modern world, exchanging a costly grace for convenience, switching from genuine community to an embrace of individualism, softening theological authority down to personal preference, and giving up a clear grasp of truth and an exclusive allegiance to Jesus for a mess of mix-and-match attitudes that are syncretism by another name, (pg. 12). Well written! This according to former Evangelical Protestants Stephen Ray, (Crossing the Tiber, Evangelical Protestants Discover the Historic Church), and Michael Cumbie, (How Then Shall We Worship), is why so many Evangelicals are coming home to the true Church after learning of her history and worship. We must save a place for them at the Lord’s Table, as well as continue to invite them home.

 

[Church_Militant]

but still those 7 points are what almost

all evangelicals believe. thats what matters.The problem there is that (again) there is a difference in profession between individual “Evangelical” groups and communities, but at least it gives us all a point at which to begin talking, right?

My personal issue with that list is going to be the fourth statement.

Fourth, we believe that Jesus’ own teaching and his attitude toward the total truthfulness and supreme authority of the Bible, God’s inspired Word, make the Scriptures our final rule for faith and practice.

I’m sorry, but I do not see that in the Word of God, and I am copying this post over to Apologetics where we can discuss and debate that without derailing this thread.

 

[Della]

but thats just a claim. i dont think its right judge someone else according to your own personal claims.

I judged no one. I said, and will say again, that the CHURCH makes this claim and the other faiths you cited DO NOT. It has nothing to do with my “personal claims.” Do read what I write, sir, not what you assume a Catholic is bound to say. Thank you.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Exactly what was Jesus’ own teaching and attitude about the supreme authority of the bible as the final rule of faith and practice? I have never seen those words of Jesus in the NT.

i think they got that idea from the fact the Jesus quoted the scriptures on many occassions.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I judged no one. I said, and will say again, that the CHURCH makes this claim and the other faiths you cited DO NOT. It has nothing to do with my “personal claims.” Do read what I write, sir, not what you assume a Catholic is bound to say. Thank you.

when i said ‘you’ i meant the CC. the CC’s personal claim.

 

[Church_Militant]

Here’s the root of the Evangelical problem:

Exactly what was Jesus’ own teaching and attitude about the supreme authority of the bible as the final rule of faith and practice? I have never seen those words of Jesus in the NT.

And whose interpretation of the bible is supreme? Since each Evangelical is free to interpret the bible for himself in any way he wishes, there is no supreme rule of faith and practice other than one’s own self.

Without an authoritative magisterium with apostolic succession, guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit, to interpret the scriptures there is no real rule of faith and practice at all. This is evident in the confusion and continual multiplication of opposing sects in the Evangelical movement.

Paul

Hey Paul, Check your PMs real quick!

 

[Church_Militant]

Here’s a statement that seems to acknowledge the problem. I’m glad they said this.

Third, Evangelicals are followers of Jesus in a way that is not limited to certain churches or contained by a definable movement. We are members of many different churches and denominations, mainline as well as independent, and our Evangelical commitment provides a core of unity that holds together a wide range of diversity. This is highly significant for any movement in the network society of the information age, but Evangelicalism has always been diverse, flexible, adaptable, non-hierarchical, and taken many forms. This is true today more than ever, as witnessed by the variety and vibrancy of Evangelicals around the world. For to be Evangelical is first and foremost a way of being devoted to Jesus Christ, seeking to live in different ages and different cultures as he calls his followers to live.

sans the Sola Scriptura section so far I see where a catholic could be considered Evangelical. At least for the 5 minutes that it took for the Evangelicals to realize he was a Catholic.

 

[Della]

when i said ‘you’ i meant the CC. the CC’s personal claim.

Even that is not the point. The point is, the other faiths you cited do not make that claim. It is one of the reasons why, as it is for Evangelicals, that they cannot speak with a unified voice, which is what we are discussing. Yes?

 

[Church_Militant]

Even that is not the point. The point is, the other faiths you cited do not make that claim. It is one of the reasons why, as it is for Evangelicals, that they cannot

speak with a unified voice, which is what we are discussing. Yes?True, but at the same time, I think we would be wise to consider the document as a whole and looking for things that we can discuss that will (at least) help us all better understand each other.

We may not agree, but I much prefer to disagree with something that I understand properly.

 

[Church_Militant]

Sixth, Evangelicalism should be distinguished from two opposite tendencies to which Protestantism has been prone: liberal revisionism and conservative fundamentalism. Called by Jesus to be ―“in the world, but not of it,” Christians, especially in modern society, have been pulled toward two extremes. Those more liberal have tended so to accommodate the world that they reflect the thinking and lifestyles of the day, to the point where they are unfaithful to Christ; whereas those more conservative have tended so to defy the world that they resist it in ways that also become unfaithful to Christ.

Now this I can very much appreciate, but I fear that this will bring on a fusillade of criticism from some of the folks who include that in their definition of Evangelical. [SIGN]Hoo boy![/SIGN]

 

[Contarini]

“Fourth, we believe that Jesus’ own teaching and his attitude toward the total truthfulness and supreme authority of the Bible, God’s inspired Word, make the Scriptures our final rule for faith and practice”, (pg. 6). Sadly, this document is typically “Protestant” in that they limit themselves to learning only from the written Word of God, (sola scriptura), throwing out over 1500 years of Church/Christian understanding and history for a belief not found anywhere in Holy Scripture, which they claim to be their only authority.

That is not true at all. They do not say that they learn only from the written Word of God. They say that it is the final rule for faith and practice. This view is abundantly documented in early Christianity. It’s the traditional Christian view, alongside a robust confidence in Christian tradition. For early and medieval Christians, Scripture as the ultimate authority and the Church as the authoritative interpreter were not in conflict. The Reformation debates tragically set these two things against each other.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Here’s a statement that seems to acknowledge the problem. I’m glad they said this.sans the Sola Scriptura section so far I see where a catholic could be considered Evangelical. At least for the 5 minutes that it took for the Evangelicals to realize he was a Catholic.

Actually a lot of evangelicals think that it’s quite possible to be Catholic and evangelical. The older, more conservative ones are more skeptical.

Edwin

 

[ralphinal]

One of their reasons for writing this manifesto is to clean up the name “Evangelical”. For now I dont think it would help that cause if they reminded us the stuff they are against. As some of them are not politically correct.

I agree 100% both with your point and the rational for writing this.

what kinds of issues? like contraception & stem cell research? if so, evangelicals dont believe in church infallibility. so cant expect them making official religious comments on every issue.

How about we stick with two easy ones: adultry and blasphemy. FOr some things, we need no Church Authority to tell us that they are wrong.

what do you mean ‘full of humans’? isnt everyone full of humans?

Yes, all groups are full of humans. FOr some that is the main issue, as the doctrine is sound. For others, they start with bad doctrine and having humans in it only makes it worse.

 

[Della]

True, but at the same time, I think we would be wise to consider the document as a whole and looking for things that we can discuss that will (at least) help us all better understand each other.

We may not agree, but I much prefer to disagree with something that I understand properly.

One of the limitations of this form of communication is keeping up with all the discussions within a thread that relate to it, but are not necessarily addressing the all the points/the main point. Yes?

I was merely answering AgnosTheist not making a comment on the larger issues, although we were relating his comments and my responses to it. Thank you for your response, anyway.

 

[Church_Militant]

Actually a lot of evangelicals think that it’s quite possible to be Catholic and evangelical. The older, more conservative ones are more skeptical.

Edwin

:yup: :yup: :yup: