An Example of Hyper Hyper Hyper Dulia?

[RobHom]

I will give you liturgically colored jello.

As long as it not yellow!!

 

[RobHom]

I think the problem for non-Catholics in appreciating Liguori rests in three things:

1. Non-Catholic culture and spirituality.
2. Liguori’s style of writing and language.
3. Non-Catholics that criticize Liguori have generally never compared his writings on Mary with his writings on Jesus.

Liguori is indeed flowery and he clearly loves Mary. Try reading what he writes about Jesus. Doing this will put his writings on Mary in perspective.

You’re 100% correct! I personally think many non-Catholics have problems with, and experience much misunderstanding of Catholic writers of earlier ages…simply because of the “flowery prose”…that was the style in that time. Its much like reading Shakespeare…and most people today need a translator to make him understandable…

Its pretty much uneducated “nit-picking” at best. Its always easier to attack something one does not understand than it is to take issue with something one does understand.

 

[RobHom]

Two fallacies in one—the appeal to emotion straw man?

If you actually believe that…then it is quite possible that you do not understand “Calvinism”. Oh, its possible that you are a “modernistic” Calvinist…who has modified and bent and twisted and contorted Calvin’s original thoughts into a “modernistic” version of whatever it is you seek to adhere to.

Is this not “Calvinism”?

**T =Total hereditary depravity=babies inherit the sin of Adam and are totally depraved and therefore unable to respond to the gospel message of Christ.

U=Unconditional election=(or predestination) God had a master list of those who will be saved and those who will go to hell before creation in Gen 1:1. The list is unchangeable.

L=Limited atonement=Christ did not die for all men but only those on the “saved list”

I=Irresistible grace=God sends the Holy Spirit only those on the saved list which removes their depraved nature inherited from Adam and creates within them a saving faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit thereafter guides them directly to understand and correctly interpret the Bible.

P=Perseverance of the saints=A child of God once saved, cannot be lost. **

Be that the case (TULIP)… Whats the point? Why not do as you please…afterall, you are either “chosen” and will make the cut, or not chosen and doomed…and you have no say or choice in the issue…

 

[peary1]

Could you cut the triumphalism and make a real arguement? You have not offered any defense of the arguement. Whether popes supported it doesn’t make it dogma. One pope said the Greek Christians worshiped demons. Is that a dogma that we must all accept?

Was there ever a dogma or doctrine in the Church that specifically defined that Greek Christians worshiped demons? What a ridiculous statement for you to make. That may have been a pope’s private prejudice and hatred for the Greeks but it certainly isn’t any doctrine or dogma!

God chose to come through Mary, that is right. The problem is that no where in this does it suggest that God also chose to make Mary the mediator between man and Christ so that it is a heirarchy so that Christ saved Mary, and Mary saves us. I am sorry but that kind of thinking smacks of heresy. Just as God chose to come through Mary He also chose that He would be our mediator, not Mary.1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.[1John2]

**When did Christ say, “It is finished”? immediately AFTER He gave His mother to the disciple John, who, throughout the past two-thousand years, was looked upon as us, the Church. He could give no more.

You have a problem with the term mediation and intercession. In Catholic understanding, the two are not the same, and you would do well to understand that if you wish to have a decent conversation.

The faith of the Church is that the saints are not really dead, but are fully alive in Jesus Christ**, who is life itself (John 11:25; 14:6) and the bread of life who bestows life on all who eat his flesh and drink his blood (John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56). The saints are alive in heaven because of the life they have received through their faith in Christ Jesus and through their eating of his body and blood.

The book of Revelation shows the saints worshipping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).

Because they are alive, we believe that we can go to them to intercede for us with God. We do not need to see apparitions or hear their voices in order to believe they will pray for us in heaven. We trust that the saints will accept our requests for help and will present them to Christ for us.

The Catholic Church has always believed that Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man. It is the death and resurrection of Jesus alone by which people are saved.

The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven, just as they approach God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lord: “But you have approached Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, and the assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood which speaks better than that of Abel” (Heb. 12:22-24).

Furthermore, “spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect” is a perfect definition of the saints in heaven. This passage is saying that, just as Christians approach the angels, God the judge, Jesus Christ, and his saving blood, so also must we approach the saints in heaven.

In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4 we are told that something similar happened when the Lamb opened the seventh seal of the book: “Another angel came and stood on the altar, having a golden censer, and many incenses were given to him, in order that he will give it with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incenses went up with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

These texts give us a way to understand how the saints offer our prayers for us. Our prayers are like nuggets of incense. They smell sweet and good. The 24 elders around the throne, who are saints, and the angels offer these nuggets of incense for us. They set them on fire before the throne of God.

This is a beautiful image of how the intercession of the saints works. Because the saints are so close to the fire of God’s love and because they stand immediately before him, they can set our prayers on fire with their love and release the power of our prayers.

 

[sandusky]

RobHom:

T =Total hereditary depravity=babies inherit the sin of Adam and are totally depraved and therefore unable to respond to the gospel message of Christ.

That’s not the definition of total depravity; nevertheless that’s what your church teaches.

:ehh: Do you believe that men can believe the Gospel on their own?

RobHom:

U=Unconditional election=(or predestination) God had a master list of those who will be saved and those who will go to hell before creation in Gen 1:1. The list is unchangeable.

That’s not the definition of unconditional election; nevertheless, that is what your church teaches—unconditional election to perseverance.

RobHom:

L=Limited atonement=Christ did not die for all men but only those on the “saved list”

How is it that Christ died for those who are in hell? Did He fail in the atonement?

RobHom:

I=Irresistible grace=God sends the Holy Spirit only those on the saved list which removes their depraved nature inherited from Adam and creates within them a saving faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit thereafter guides them directly to understand and correctly interpret the Bible.

That’s not the definition of irresistible grace; nevertheless, you church teaches irresistible grace for the elect to perseverance, they call it “efficacious grace.”

RobHom:

P=Perseverance of the saints=A child of God once saved, cannot be lost.

Your church teaches the same thing for the elect to perseverance.

RobHom:

Be that the case (TULIP)… Whats the point? Why not do as you please…afterall, you are either “chosen” and will make the cut, or not chosen and doomed…and you have no say or choice in the issue…

Because I’m saved, and saved people don’t do as they please; neither do they bow down before statues, nor worship bread and wine.

 

[peary1]

From 33 AD to 40 AD, what NT books were present? Even once they were all finished, and I personally hold that it was prior to 70 AD, there were no copiers, fax machines or Fed Ex. Dissimination would have been a slow process. Oral teachings would have been the only logical way to spread the Good News. The Scriptures tell us to hold fast to everything taught to us, by word of mouth or by SCriptures. It also says that the CHurch is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth. Nowhere does the Bible say all you need is the Bible.

I am not quesitoning the credentials that any denomination has. I am saying that sola scriptura in any form would have been foreign to the early Church.

If this were not true, you would not see things like a “trail of blood” being held by some. You cannot write Protestantism into the first 1500 years of the CHurch no matter how hard you try.

Slow process? Do you realize that we have THOUSANDS of NT manuscripts from both the 1st and 2nd centuries??

 

[justasking4]

RobHom;4174837]
You’re 100% correct! I personally think many non-Catholics have problems with, and experience much misunderstanding of Catholic writers of earlier ages…simply because of the “flowery prose”…that was the style in that time. Its much like reading Shakespeare…and most people today need a translator to make him understandable…

Even if this were “flowery prose” it still goes far far beyond what the Scriptures say about her. It makes her out to be some kind of goddess with all the powers and titles attributed to her.

Its pretty much uneducated “nit-picking” at best. Its always easier to attack something one does not understand than it is to take issue with something one does understand.

The problem is those who study these things do understand and it is not nit-picking”. What is troubling is that those in the Catholic church who teach such things know that this kind of thing leads to unbiblical practices. Jesus nor His apostles never taught such things about Mary.

What’s troubling also is that it does not trouble Catholics.

 

[sandusky]

RobHom:

You’re 100% correct! I personally think many non-Catholics have problems with, and experience much misunderstanding of Catholic writers of earlier ages…simply because of the “flowery prose”…that was the style in that time. Its much like reading Shakespeare…and most people today need a translator to make him understandable…

Does Ligouri include a disclaimer in his writings on Mary: ”Ignore those things written in ‘flowery prose,’ I don’t mean them,” or “just kidding,”?

RobHom:

Its pretty much uneducated “nit-picking” at best. Its always easier to attack something one does not understand than it is to take issue with something one does understand.

You mean like you and TULIP?

 

[Pax]

Does Ligouri include a disclaimer in his writings on Mary: ”Ignore those things written in ‘flowery prose,’ I don’t mean them,” or “just kidding,”?

You mean like you and TULIP?

Have you read Liguori’s other works especially those on Jesus?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Because I’m saved, and saved people don’t do as they please; neither do they bow down before statues, nor worship bread and wine.

Ouch LOL.

 

[Pax]

We do not worship bread and wine. We worship the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[East_and_West]

Because I’m saved, and saved people don’t do as they please; neither do they bow down before statues, nor worship bread and wine.

Well, at least we do have one thing in common. Catholics don’t worship statues or bread either.
The place where we differ is that we don’t worship ourselves as you worship yourself. God alone knows who is going to heaven and you claim to know you are going to heaven. You must believe yourself to be God.

 

[guanophore]

The problem is those who study these things do understand and it is not nit-picking”. What is troubling is that those in the Catholic church who teach such things know that this kind of thing leads to unbiblical practices. Jesus nor His apostles never taught such things about Mary.

What’s troubling also is that it does not trouble Catholics.

The Catholic faith has never been “bible based”, so is not concerned about “unbiblical practices”. The entire practices of the Church predated the NT, and are not based upon it, but upon Jesus.

Since you have limited yourself to the Scripture as the Sole revelation about Jesus and the Apostles, how could you possibly know what else they taught and practiced?

If you are so troubled by Catholic practices, why are you here?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4181361]
Originally Posted by justasking4
The problem is those who study these things do understand and it is not nit-picking”. What is troubling is that those in the Catholic church who teach such things know that this kind of thing leads to unbiblical practices. Jesus nor His apostles never taught such things about Mary.

What’s troubling also is that it does not trouble Catholics.

guanophore
The Catholic faith has never been “bible based”, so is not concerned about “unbiblical practices”. The entire practices of the Church predated the NT, and are not based upon it, but upon Jesus.

What this means that since the Catholic church is not based on the Scriptures it based the doctrines of men. We see it so much in its doctrines and practices.

Since you have limited yourself to the Scripture as the Sole revelation about Jesus and the Apostles, how could you possibly know what else they taught and practiced?

You to do not know exactly what else Jesus and His apostles taught. If its not in the Scriptures we don’t know what it is.

If you are so troubled by Catholic practices, why are you here?

To help.

 

[JoeyWarren]

What this means that since the Catholic church is not based on the Scriptures it based the doctrines of men. We see it so much in its doctrines and practices.

**No what that means is that the Catholic Church is based on the teaching of Christ and the Apostles in which the Bible incorporates a small portion of what was taught. **

---

Protestantism is based on the Bible alone, therefore it does not and cannot percieve the whole truth since the Bible contains only a small portion of the whole and Universal Truth.

---

**When you have only bits and pieces and not the whole truth and nothing but the truth, one ends up having over a million denominations each proclaiming to be interpreting the bits and pieces correctly and infallibly. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

You to do not know exactly what else Jesus and His apostles taught.

**Of course we do. It’s called the deposit of faith. What was spoken and taught by Jesus and the Apostles was handed down verbally before anyone thought to put it some of it down on papyrus. **

If its not in the Scriptures we don’t know what it is.

**That’s right. You as a Protestant don’t know what it is because all you have is a remnant of God’s Total Word currently called the Bible. Latin for Book. You don’t have the fullness of truth. I feel so sorry for you in that aspect. You have only a small portion of the that Greater Truth. And without anyone to teach you the fullness of truth, all you can do is wander thru the desert of Half-truths. **

 

[justasking4]

JoeyWarren;4181580]**
You to do not know exactly what else Jesus and His apostles taught.
JoeyWarren
Of course we do. It’s called the deposit of faith. What was spoken and taught by Jesus and the Apostles was handed down verbally before anyone thought to put it some of it down on papyrus. **
Can you give me a couple of examples of what Jesus or His apostles taught or said that is not recorded in the Scriptures? Where specifically is this found in the “deposit of faith”?

Quote:justasking4.
If its not in the Scriptures we don’t know what it is.
JoeyWarren
That’s right. You as a Protestant don’t know what it is because all you have is a remnant of God’s Total Word currently called the Bible. Latin for Book. You don’t have the fullness of truth. I feel so sorry for you in that aspect. You have only a small portion of the that Greater Truth. And without anyone to teach you the fullness of truth, all you can do is wander thru the desert of Half-truths.

If you cannot produce just a couple of examples of what Jesus or His apostles said or taught then that tells me you don’t know what it is either. You can claim “deposit of faith” or Sacred Tradition all you want but until we see concrete examples of these teachings of Christ and His apostles not found in the Scriptures then there is no reason to think they exist. I hope that is not the case though…

 

[justasking4]

**

What this means that since the Catholic church is not based on the Scriptures it based the doctrines of men. We see it so much in its doctrines and practices.

JoeyWarren;
No what that means is that the Catholic Church is based on the teaching of Christ and the Apostles in which the Bible incorporates a small portion of what was taught. **

---

Protestantism is based on the Bible alone, therefore it does not and cannot percieve the whole truth since the Bible contains only a small portion of the whole and Universal Truth.

---

**When you have only bits and pieces and not the whole truth and nothing but the truth, one ends up having over a million denominations each proclaiming to be interpreting the bits and pieces correctly and infallibly. **

The bits and pieces that you refer to that are not in the Scriptures are in reality the teachings of men since they are not really grounded in the Scriptures. Take this topic. There is no mention of it in the Scritprues. We don’t see anyone ever praying to Mary or being taught to do so. This was never what Jesus or His apostle ever taught.

 

[guanophore]

What this means that since the Catholic church is not based on the Scriptures it based the doctrines of men. We see it so much in its doctrines and practices.

Actually, you are making a logical fallacy here. One thing being true has no causative effect on the other.

I suppose such an assertion could be entertained by those that don’t consider Jesus divine. However, since the Church is based on Him, and He is divine, then your statement is false, as well as illogical.

You to do not know exactly what else Jesus and His apostles taught. If its not in the Scriptures we don’t know what it is.

Well, YOU don’t know, because you have rejected other sources of that information. Everyone is free to limit their knowledge.

Can you give me a couple of examples of what Jesus or His apostles taught or said that is not recorded in the Scriptures? Where specifically is this found in the “deposit of faith”?

Shouldn’t you limit this question to the other thread that is already dealing with the topic? Is it important for you to derail this one?

One of the Teachings is that Jesus intended, by giving His mother to the “beloved disciple” at the foot of the cross, to give her as mother to His whole body of “beloved disciples”, the Church.
We hyperdulia Mary because Jesus did, and we follow His example.

If you cannot produce just a couple of examples of what Jesus or His apostles said or taught then that tells me you don’t know what it is either.

So…

If we don’t join you here in breaking the forum rules, then we don’t know anything?

You can claim “deposit of faith” or Sacred Tradition all you want but until we see concrete examples of these teachings of Christ and His apostles not found in the Scriptures then there is no reason to think they exist. I hope that is not the case though…

OK. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, even if he is wrong?

The bits and pieces that you refer to that are not in the Scriptures are in reality the teachings of men since they are not really grounded in the Scriptures. Take this topic. There is no mention of it in the Scritprues. We don’t see anyone ever praying to Mary or being taught to do so. This was never what Jesus or His apostle ever taught.

This is a logical fallacy again. You have already admitted that there are truths that are not contained in the Scriptures. A truth does not have to be found in the scriptures to be valid. There is no mention of neutrons in the scripture, either, but we know they exist.

Why does it bother you so much that Catholics pray to Mary? How does it damage your faith?

 

[peary1]

Where do the Scriptures command you to love Mary?

One would think it is obviously included in Christ’s commandment: "Love others as I have loved you."