An honest and simple question for Muslims

[dzheremi]

Hello there,

There are so many “Ask about Islam”, “____ and Islam”, “Islam bashing” threads, but I have not seen anyone in any of them ask or answer this question, which I think is such an important one I will ask it myself.

Muslims: Do you love Christians?

There is no trick to this, friends. I won’t penalize you or talk badly if you answer “no”, or send you presents if you say “yes”. I just want to hear some individual Muslims’ thoughts about this.

Christian brothers and sisters: I know already what many of you would say to this question. Thanks in advance for not turning this thread into a repeat of a thousand other threads about the relative goodness/badness of Islam vis-a-vis Christianity or anything else. There are many other threads in which you can post those arguments, if you wish.

 

[cathopologist]

Christian brothers and sisters: I know already what many of you would say to this question. Thanks in advance for not turning this thread into a repeat of a thousand other threads about the relative goodness/badness of Islam vis-a-vis Christianity or anything else. There are many other threads in which you can post those arguments, if you wish.

I also, would like to hear their answers. It would be refreshing if Muslims can answer without resorting to bashing Christians or Christianity via their abrogated surahs.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Muslims: Do you love Christians?

**The following was written about an Orthodox priest in the Holy Land who did his best to hire unemployed Mahometans to help repair churches there.

During the years he became strong friends
with the Arab architect who supervised the work. And one day the architect
made an outstanding statement of love and friendship. “If the time comes,”
he said, “that Christians are cleansed in a new jihad then I hope that I
shall be close to you. I shall be able to kill you swiftly and painlessly,
as a brother should do for a suffering brother whose suffering is
unavoidable.” Under the circumstances this was the apex of love, to
provide a painless death, a very quick use of a knife across the throat.
One way for a Muslim Arab to show his love to a Christian monk who had
become his firm friend.

Do you see from this how much Mahometans love Christians?**

 

[hamba2han]

Actually, the Qur’an itself has an honest and simple answer to this question:

"Certainly, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the Believers (Muslims) the Jews and those who are Pagans, and you will find the nearest in love to the Believers (Muslims) those who say: “We are Christians”. That is because amongst them are priests (Men devoted to learning) and monks (men who have renounced the world), and because they do not behave proudly. And when they listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad), you see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth. They say: “Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islamic Monotheism) and we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people?” So because of what they said, Allah rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of good-doers. But those who disbelieved and denied Our signs, they shall be the dwellers of the Hell-Fire." … (Al-Qur’an 5:82-86)

And so, since Allah Himself loves Christians whose eyes well up in tears when they recognize the Words of their Lord, then why shouldn’t Muslims love these Christians?

 

[cathopologist]

That is because amongst them are priests (Men devoted to learning) and monks (men who have renounced the world), and because they do not behave proudly. And when they listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad), you see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islamic Monotheism) and we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people?"

I’m sorry, but am i the only one who thinks these words from the Qur’an are words of egomania? Christian priests and monks will strongly abhor the teachings of Mohammad, since he has denied Christ’s divinity. Honestly, what does the Qur’an take Christians for? Fools?

 

[ralphinal]

doesn’t it also say not to take Christians and Jews as friends or allies?

 

[hamba2han]

I’m sorry, but am i the only one who thinks these words from the Qur’an are words of egomania? Christian priests and monks will strongly abhor the teachings of Mohammad, since he has denied Christ’s divinity. Honestly, what does the Qur’an take Christians for? Fools?

Not all Christians priests and monks will have eyes welling up in tears when they read and listen to the Qur’an being recited… Only those of them who do NOT behave proudly and whose hearts are totally sincere in their worship of their Creator will be able to recognize the Words of their Lord.

And remember what pride does? – It got Satan thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

 

[hamba2han]

doesn’t it also say not to take Christians and Jews as friends or allies?

To understand the issue of befriending the Jews, Christians or people of any other faith, we have to study all the concerned verses from the Qur’an collectively.

Let us look at some other verses about this issue. The following two verses regulate relations with any people, regardless of faith:

As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, Allah does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, Allah loves those who act equitably. … (Al-Qur’an 60:8)

Allah only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of [your] faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid [others] in driving you forth: and as for those [from among you] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers! … (Al-Qur’an 60:9)

From the above verses, it is very clear that Muslims are only discouraged from befriending those who fight them because of their religion.

And as for the verse which is often quoted to show that Islam is intolerant:

O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, Allah does not guide people who are unjust. … (Al-Qur’an 5:51)

Let us indeed examine the verse immediately after 5:51, to see if it sheds some further light on the issue.

And yet you can not see how those in whose hearts there is disease vie with one another for their good will (the hostile Jews and Christians), saying [to themselves], “We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster.” But Allah may well bring about good fortune [for the believers] or any [other] event of His own devising, whereupon those [waverers] will be smitten with remorse for the thoughts which they had secretly harboured within themselves- … (Al-Qur’an 5:52)

During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) when the Jews and Christians were in open conflict with the Muslims, there were some Muslims who were more concerned about maintaining there alliances with the Jews and Christians at the expense of the Muslim community. The above verse is referring to such situations where Muslims with doubts in their hearts will ally themselves with the enemy.

Chapter 5 Verse 57 of the Qur’an makes it clear again, who are not to be taken as friends;

O you who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but remain conscious of Allah, if you are (truly) believers. … (Al-Qur’an 5:57)

Allah teaches us throughout the Qur’an that there are righteous Jews and Christians. As such there is no prohibition for Muslims to be friends with Jews, Christians or people of any other faith who are of good character.

 

[dzheremi]

Thanks, Hamba2han, for that verse. But really, my question is not whether or not you should love Christians according to the Qur’an, but whether or not you actually do.

As a point of comparison, one of the statements in Vatican II (paraphrased) is that the Church holds in high esteem the Muslims, who sincerely worship God. Granted, we do not believe that you do so in the correct fashion, as you deny Jesus’ divinity and the reality of the Trinity, but then so do the Jews, and I have not seen any Christian posters here talk badly about them as they do about the Muslims. So I am not asking for your religion’s view of Christians (the people mentioned in that verse would not be Christians, anyway, since Christianity is centered around a belief in the divinity of Jesus, so anyone believing in a doctrine that denies that is not Christian). I am asking for your personal view as one Muslim in the world.

 

[hamba2han]

… I am asking for your personal view as one Muslim in the world.

In all honesty and sincerity, my personal view is that of the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

Any other “Muslim” view, I am really not interested in learning about… and neither should you be.

 

[dzheremi]

OK. Thanks. I still am interested in hearing from any Muslim about this, though. My point is not “well, you guys must not agree with the Quran and Sunnah, just as some Catholics apparently disagree about the status of Muslims, even though the teachings of the Church are clear”, it is more that the feelings of the individual are usually more complex than what is set down in any book or by any religious authority.

For instance, I love Muslims and believe as the Church does that they do worship God (it is a natural consequence of monotheism, even if Muslims themselves will not believe that this is what we practice), but I will admit that I sometimes become exasperated in trying to find common ground with you, because the fundamental viewpoints of the two communities are so different. So I started this thread because I want to explore in a charitable manner exactly how different we are on this very basic issue of loving others. And since I don’t think Quranic verse that says “love Christians who recognize the truth of Islam” (that is how I read it; please tell me if I am misunderstanding it) is comparable to the Christian idea of loving others, I still wonder where the two communities might meet. Your teaching has no parallel for us, since we do not say “I love you only if you recognize Jesus as Lord”.

So, thank you for your Quranic verse, but it does not really answer my question.

 

[meedo]

In all honesty and sincerity, my personal view is that of the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

Any other “Muslim” view, I am really not interested in learning about… and neither should you be.

salam aleikum ,

I beg to differ . I have a lot of respect for you as my muslim brother or sister.

But i am a human … and i do have feelings and they would still be there weather i am muslim or not.

The Quran and the Sunnah are great sources of Inspiration for us and they do make us better human biengs, but you brother have just exercised monopoly over them by your statement. when you say that your personal view is that of the Qur’an and the Sunnah, it might give the impression that your personal view IS what the Quran and Sunnah mandate.

You said the following to which i think it is a big mistake

(Any other “Muslim” view, I am really not interested in learning about… and neither should you be)

You wiped out the value of all your muslim brothers and sisters who might add value to the discussion and narrowed somthing that God has made wide . Knowledge sources .

I respect your effort and personally i learn from your posts hamba2han i hope you dont take my advise in a bad faith :hug1:

Do i love Christians ? Yes , with all my heart . I have Christian neighbour who is the nicest person in the building i live in and his son is my friend . I have never ever seen ill from him.

Besides my above example, ther eis no reason whatsoever for me to hate anybody . I do not like who does injustice to me or to any one intentionally . But muslims do injustices as Christians do injustices . We are not perfect . The best of us is the person who recognizes his mistakes and try to mend them .

Yes i love Christians. I have met great Christians and not so great Christians . I have met great muslims and not so great muslims.

Christianity has great values and many people make their life better and the lives of others by drawing Inspiration from it

We have many things in common , and i am sure if we try ,we can become very good friends.

meedo

 

[dzheremi]

Thanks, Meedo, for your honest answer. I am glad also that you see why I have trouble with Hamba2han’s answer. Maybe Hamba2han will listen to you since you are a fellow Muslim, and respond once again to this thread.

 

[cathopologist]

Not all Christians priests and monks will have eyes welling up in tears when they read and listen to the Qur’an being recited… Only those of them who do NOT behave proudly and whose hearts are totally sincere in their worship of their Creator will be able to recognize the Words of their Lord.

And remember what pride does? – It got Satan thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

In my experience as a Catholic, i have never met a proud priest or monk. They emphasize love for all of God’s creatures - even animals. I go to St. Mary of the Angels Church (Franciscan parish) and there are monks (brothers) who reside there and they are some of the nicest people i have met. In Christianity, there are no monks or priests that will surrender to Mohammad’s teaching and deny Christ as their savior. Hence why i see the statement you made as false. It serves only one purpose and that is to entice weak Christians who don’t know any better to embrace Islam.

I should also let you know that in my parish, the crucifix of Christ was modeled by an Indonesian Muslim artist. It is proudly displayed in our church and a gentle reminder of how Christians love Muslims. Nothing in our church teachings has anything that remotely resembles your remark. We don’t aim to demean Muslims, we strive for humility and Truth, not arrogance.

meedo, thank you for your kind testimony. Its nice to know other humble Muslims out there - apart from my Muslim friends in my country.

 

[hamba2han]

salam aleikum ,

I beg to differ . I have a lot of respect for you as my muslim brother or sister.

But i am a human … and i do have feelings and they would still be there weather i am muslim or not.

The Quran and the Sunnah are great sources of Inspiration for us and they do make us better human biengs, but you brother have just exercised monopoly over them by your statement. when you say that your personal view is that of the Qur’an and the Sunnah, it might give the impression that your personal view IS what the Quran and Sunnah mandate.

You said the following to which i think it is a big mistake

(Any other “Muslim” view, I am really not interested in learning about… and neither should you be)

You wiped out the value of all your muslim brothers and sisters who might add value to the discussion and narrowed somthing that God has made wide . Knowledge sources .

I respect your effort and personally i learn from your posts hamba2han i hope you dont take my advise in a bad faith :hug1:

Do i love Christians ? Yes , with all my heart . I have Christian neighbour who is the nicest person in the building i live in and his son is my friend . I have never ever seen ill from him.

Besides my above example, ther eis no reason whatsoever for me to hate anybody . I do not like who does injustice to me or to any one intentionally . But muslims do injustices as Christians do injustices . We are not perfect . The best of us is the person who recognizes his mistakes and try to mend them .

Yes i love Christians. I have met great Christians and not so great Christians . I have met great muslims and not so great muslims.

Christianity has great values and many people make their life better and the lives of others by drawing Inspiration from it

We have many things in common , and i am sure if we try ,we can become very good friends.

meedo

Wa alaikumussalam

No offence taken brother and perhaps it is better that I clarify what I wrote.

What I meant when I said my personal view is that of the Qur’an and the Sunnah is that ANY view, and not necessarily from Muslims only, which is in accordance with the Qur’an and the Sunnah would generally be my view as well.

On the other hand, any view which to my understanding, is not in accordance with the Qur’an and the Sunnah, even though these views may come from Muslims, is not a view that I would likely agree with.

It may sound harsh but that would be my personal view on just about any matter.

 

[ralphinal]

Wa alaikumussalam

No offence taken brother and perhaps it is better that I clarify what I wrote.

What I meant when I said my personal view is that of the Qur’an and the Sunnah is that ANY view, and not necessarily from Muslims only, which is in accordance with the Qur’an and the Sunnah would generally be my view as well.

On the other hand, any view which to my understanding, is not in accordance with the Qur’an and the Sunnah, even though they may be from Muslims, is not a view that I would likely agree with.

It may sound harsh but that would be my personal view on just about any matter.

I don’t think that is a harsh attitude. It is an honest one by someone trying to live their faith.

What about someone who reads the same verses and comes to a conclusion that all Christians, because of the US war on Terror, are enemies? How would you answer that?

 

[hamba2han]

I don’t think that is a harsh attitude. It is an honest one by someone trying to live their faith.

What about someone who reads the same verses and comes to a conclusion that all Christians, because of the US war on Terror, are enemies? How would you answer that?

Any view which to my understanding, is not in accordance with the Qur’an and the Sunnah, even though these views may come from Muslims, is not a view that I would likely agree with.

In the case that you pointed out, I would not agree with their view because it does not conform with the Qur’an and the Sunnah according to my understanding.

And should I, along with other Muslims, be held responsible for these Muslims’ views on the issue?

I believe that I am not accountable for their actions… because this is taught by the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

 

[ralphinal]

Any view which to my understanding, is not in accordance with the Qur’an and the Sunnah, even though these views may come from Muslims, is not a view that I would likely agree with.

In the case that you pointed out, I would not agree with their view because it does not conform with the Qur’an and the Sunnah according to my understanding.

And should I, along with other Muslims, be held responsible for these Muslims’ views on the issue?

I believe that I am not responsible… because this is taught by the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

I understand what you are saying. How about this, is there some group of Muslims that would tell another group that they are wrong?

Part of the issue is that a small group of Muslims, say 10% do want to kill off Christians. Is the other 90% going to stop them?

 

[hamba2han]

I understand what you are saying. How about this, is there some group of Muslims that would tell another group that they are wrong?

Part of the issue is that a small group of Muslims, say 10% do want to kill off Christians. Is the other 90% going to stop them?

Lots and lots of Muslims are constantly telling other Muslims that they are wrongly following Islam.

And do these people listen to these opposing views with regard to their beliefs?.. I think that you know the answer to this.

 

[ralphinal]

Lots and lots of Muslims are constantly telling other Muslims that they are wrongly following Islam.

And do these people listen to these opposing views with regard to their beliefs?.. I think that you know the answer to this.

So can we, as Christians, depend on other Muslims to prevent these people from attacking us? Is it taught in Islam that you should not take up arms against other Muslims as long as they are not fighting you?