An honest and simple question for Muslims

[hamba2han]

So can we, as Christians, depend on other Muslims to prevent these people from attacking us? Is it taught in Islam that you should not take up arms against other Muslims as long as they are not fighting you?

I personally do not know any Muslim who wants to attack Christians.

However, if I do come across one, I will try to advise him not to.

Muslims too request Christians to prevent other Christians from attacking us with cluster bombs, missiles and helicopter gunships… and imprisoning Muslims without trial in places like Guantanamo Bay.

 

[R_not]

How do you trust any answer when their koran says that deceiving us is ok?

Do you think you will feel safer, or more cozy, if they answer ‘yes, we love you…’ then that is what they will tell you.

I don’t understand this sort of questioning if one doesn’t understand the teachings of islam. Love, tolerance, forgiveness, etc isn’t even taught in their koran. Of course you might get some individuals who are ok with us, some are bad muslims, or are not particularly religious. Some are even apostates in secret because if they denounced islam outright they might get killed. Don’t worry, I won’t stick to this thread to upset the muslims - you know that upsetting a muslim means that you know their teachings. And they don’t like that - they call it bashing because I don’t quote the abrogated surahs.

 

[dzheremi]

R_not, please read the OP. I wrote that I won’t penalize or praise any Muslim for any answer, and I mean it. Honesty is better than being placated. I am only asking for honest opinions.

And this thread is not really about what is or isn’t in the Qur’an. The discussion between Meedo and Hamba2han illustrates this better than anything I could have written.

 

[R_not]

R_not, please read the OP. I wrote that I won’t penalize or praise any Muslim for any answer, and I mean it. Honesty is better than being placated. I am only asking for honest opinions.

And this thread is not really about what is or isn’t in the Qur’an. The discussion between Meedo and Hamba2han illustrates this better than anything I could have written.

Thanks dzheremi - I was just asking. Yeah, I read what they wrote that is why I asked the question.

Anyway, I am leaving like I said - I was just curious.

 

[cathopologist]

I personally do not know any Muslim who wants to attack Christians.

However, if I do come across one, I will try to advise him not to.

Muslims too request Christians to prevent other Christians from attacking us with cluster bombs, missiles and helicopter gunships… and imprisoning Muslims without trial in places like Guantanamo Bay.

hamba2han, when America invaded Iraq, my stance was that of the Catholic Church’s - it was uncalled for and prejudiced. My immediate thought was about the safety of the Chaldean Catholics and the other Assyrian/Syrian Christians. What the so-called insurgents would do to their fellow countrymen.

As for Guantanamo Bay, i think many American citizens and members of other countries themselves opposed to the treatment of its captives - without the Muslim community interfering. Amongst them were atheists, humanists, liberals - people who did not confess to any particular religion. When it comes to human rights, i have personally witnessed and also read stories of caring human beings from all over the globe fighting against the common enemy - the prejudiced mentality of uninformed people.

I have a couple of questions for you: What will be the exact advice you would give to a fellow Muslim who may be thinking of eradicating Christians within his reach? I’m just curious.

Also, do you think all Christians and Jews are Zionist supporters? What would you advice a fellow Muslim if he/she lumps all Christians and Jews as “Zionists”? What would you say to correct their views?

 

[Angelos]

To understand the issue of befriending the Jews, Christians or people of any other faith, we have to study all the concerned verses from the Qur’an collectively.

Let us look at some other verses about this issue. The following two verses regulate relations with any people, regardless of faith:

As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, Allah does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, Allah loves those who act equitably. … (Al-Qur’an 60:8)

Allah only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of [your] faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid [others] in driving you forth: and as for those [from among you] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers! … (Al-Qur’an 60:9)

From the above verses, it is very clear that Muslims are only discouraged from befriending those who fight them because of their religion.

You somehow forget that the first verse of the same chapter (Surah 60) which allegedly does not forbid Muslims from befriending all Jews and Christians says:

Surah 60:1
O you who believe! do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the Apostle and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them?

This verse clearly states that WHOEVER rejects the Koran as a divine revelation telling the truth is considered an enemy of Allah and Muslims! Thus, Islam regards ALL non-Muslims as enemies that must not be loved and befriended, not only the non-Muslims that join forces with the pagans who strive to take Muslims out of their land.

More, the following Koran verse implies that ALL non-Muslims are enemies:

Surah 5:33
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Since the verse includes the word “Allah” into the phrase “those who wage war against His apostle” and since it is unreasonable to assume that humans can wage a physical war against Allah, the phrase “waging war” refers to resisting Allah and Mohammad (Islam). Consequently, all non-Muslims who resist Mohammad and his religion through the critique of the Koran and Islamic tenets for the defense of their religion are considered enemies.

And as for the verse which is often quoted to show that Islam is intolerant:

O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, Allah does not guide people who are unjust. … (Al-Qur’an 5:51)

Let us indeed examine the verse immediately after 5:51, to see if it sheds some further light on the issue.

And yet you can not see how those in whose hearts there is disease vie with one another for their good will (the hostile Jews and Christians), saying [to themselves], “We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster.” But Allah may well bring about good fortune [for the believers] or any [other] event of His own devising, whereupon those [waverers] will be smitten with remorse for the thoughts which they had secretly harboured within themselves- … (Al-Qur’an 5:52)

During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) when the Jews and Christians were in open conflict with the Muslims, there were some Muslims who were more concerned about maintaining there alliances with the Jews and Christians at the expense of the Muslim community. The above verse is referring to such situations where Muslims with doubts in their hearts will ally themselves with the enemy.

Chapter 5 Verse 57 of the Qur’an makes it clear again, who are not to be taken as friends;

O you who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but remain conscious of Allah, if you are (truly) believers. … (Al-Qur’an 5:57)

Allah teaches us throughout the Qur’an that there are righteous Jews and Christians. As such there is no prohibition for Muslims to be friends with Jews, Christians or people of any other faith who are of good character.

This is blatant hypocrisy, sorry to say! The Koran makes clear that the only true religion from above is Islam, and that Muslims are commanded to fight so as to make Islam the dominant religion in the whole world:

Surah 9:33
He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.

Thus, the Koran is at an open and constant war with all those who do not follow Islam.

 

[hamba2han]

What will be the exact advice you would give to a fellow Muslim who may be thinking of eradicating Christians within his reach?

My advice to them would be to read the Qur’an and the Sunnah – in addition to the ahadith, the Sunnah also includes the Seerah which relates the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions (may Allah be pleased with them).

Also, do you think all Christians and Jews are Zionist supporters? What would you advice a fellow Muslim if he/she lumps all Christians and Jews as “Zionists”? What would you say to correct their views?

Always refer to the Qur’an and the Sunnah in order to learn and understand the most acceptable and blessed way in the eyes of their Creator how Muslims should live their lives.

 

[ralphinal]

I personally do not know any Muslim who wants to attack Christians.

However, if I do come across one, I will try to advise him not to.

Muslims too request Christians to prevent other Christians from attacking us with cluster bombs, missiles and helicopter gunships… and imprisoning Muslims without trial in places like Guantanamo Bay.

And what was the time line for these attacks? Who attacked first? Does that matter in Islam? In Islam, can you ever forgive an attack or is it hate until avenged?

There are Muslims that still complain about battles from centuries ago. Isn’t that a bit much?

 

[hamba2han]

And what was the time line for these attacks? Who attacked first? Does that matter in Islam? In Islam, can you ever forgive an attack or is it hate until avenged?

There are Muslims that still complain about battles from centuries ago. Isn’t that a bit much?

Inflicting “collateral damage” is a very evil and despicable act and is totally unacceptable in Islam because innocent people are being killed and maimed.

Does Christianity teach any differently on how to respond to terrorist acts which Islam also condemns?

I would think that “an eye for an eye” surely does not mean that if you kill one of us, we have the right to drop cluster bombs on members of your community.

 

[Booklover]

You somehow forget that the first verse of the same chapter (Surah 60) which allegedly does not forbid Muslims from befriending all Jews and Christians says:

Surah 60:1
O you who believe! do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the Apostle and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them?

This verse clearly states that WHOEVER rejects the Koran as a divine revelation telling the truth is considered an enemy of Allah and Muslims! Thus, Islam regards ALL non-Muslims as enemies that must not be loved and befriended, not only the non-Muslims that join forces with the pagans who strive to take Muslims out of their land.

More, the following Koran verse implies that ALL non-Muslims are enemies:

Surah 5:33
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Since the verse includes the word “Allah” into the phrase “those who wage war against His apostle” and since it is unreasonable to assume that humans can wage a physical war against Allah, the phrase “waging war” refers to resisting Allah and Mohammad (Islam). Consequently, all non-Muslims who resist Mohammad and his religion through the critique of the Koran and Islamic tenets for the defense of their religion are considered enemies.

This is blatant hypocrisy, sorry to say! The Koran makes clear that the only true religion from above is Islam, and that Muslims are commanded to fight so as to make Islam the dominant religion in the whole world:

Surah 9:33
He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.

Thus, the Koran is at an open and constant war with all those who do not follow Islam.

Excellent post, Angelos! Thanks for stating it so clearly.

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Inflicting “collateral damage” is a very evil and despicable act and is totally unacceptable in Islam because innocent people are being killed and maimed.

Does Christianity teach any differently on how to respond to terrorist acts which Islam also condemns?

I would think that “an eye for an eye” surely does not mean that if you kill one of us, we have the right to drop cluster bombs on members of your community.

Come off it, Hamba! Muslims are killing people, including each other every day!

Here are just a few of the atrocities committed in the last few days:

10/7/2008 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - Militant Muslims murder a man sitting in his pickup truck. The victim’s teenage son is severely injured.
10/7/2008 (Beledweyne, Somalia) - Islamic militia are suspected of shooting a peaceful negotiator in the head at a marketplace.
10/6/2008 (Mosul, Iraq) - A disabled Christian is abducted from his shop by Islamists and then shot to death.
10/6/2008 (Mogadishu, Somalia) - al-Shabab terrorists lob mortars into a marketplace. Children are among the seventeen civilians killed
.10/6/2008 (Merka, Somalia) - Islamic milita attack a humanitarian vehicle, leaving one worker dead.
10/6/2008 (Punjab, Pakistan) - Holy Warriors strike a party held at a home. Seventeen people are blown to bits.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/LeftNavLine.gif

 

[ralphinal]

Inflicting “collateral damage” is a very evil and despicable act and is totally unacceptable in Islam because innocent people are being killed and maimed.

Does Christianity teach any differently on how to respond to terrorist acts which Islam also condemns?

I would think that “an eye for an eye” surely does not mean that if you kill one of us, we have the right to drop cluster bombs on members of your community.

There is no good reason to attack civilians. IN fact, when you remove religion from it, history shows that it only makes them less likely to surrender.

Now, what about militants who hid in Mosques? Use women and children as sheilds? Set up in hospitals? Why don’t other Muslims force them out into the open where there would be no collateral damage? What about using children as bombers? Women? Why do the men allow this to happen?

 

[hamba2han]

There is no good reason to attack civilians. IN fact, when you remove religion from it, history shows that it only makes them less likely to surrender.

Now, what about militants who hid in Mosques? Use women and children as sheilds? Set up in hospitals? Why don’t other Muslims force them out into the open where there would be no collateral damage? What about using children as bombers? Women? Why do the men allow this to happen?

Militants who “hide” in mosques in Iraq are resistance fighters who are opposing the illegal occupation of their country by foreign invaders.

Why should Muslims in Iraq be expected to hand their brothers over to the occupying army?.. In order to avoid suffering “collateral damage”??

Christians do not even know whether or not inflicting “collateral damage” on innocent civilians is an act of evil, do they?

Christians do not even know whether or not defending one’s land against foreign occupation is a meritorious act in the eyes of the Lord, do they?

I would advise them to check up on their own Bible because the answers to these kind of questions are in there.

 

[Booklover]

Militants who “hide” in mosques in Iraq are resistance fighters who are opposing the illegal occupation of their country by foreign invaders.

Why should Muslims in Iraq be expected to hand their brothers over to the occupying army?.. In order to avoid suffering “collateral damage”??

Christians do not even know whether or not inflicting “collateral damage” on innocent civilians is an act of evil, do they?

Christians do not even know whether or not defending one’s land against foreign occupation is a meritorious act in the eyes of the Lord, do they?

I would advise them to check up on their own Bible because the answers to these kind of questions are in there.

Stop pontificating about evil to us when you’ve chosen to follow and emulate a man like Muhammad!

And yes, we know and have the right to protect our country from invaders and those who come here with the idea of overthrowing our democratic form of government and installing a barbaric 7th century ideology in its place.

IMHO, I don’t think Muslims give a hoot about each other since they blow each other up every day! All Muslims seem to care about is their image, just like the Pharisees, and we all know what Jesus said about them.

This is how Islam treats women and children:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/acid-women.jpg

Victims disfigured by acid attacks in Bangladesh, where the
corrosive liquid is the newest weapon in the war on women.

thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/Madrassa-Child_sm.jpg

Vickie

 

[ralphinal]

Militants who “hide” in mosques in Iraq are resistance fighters who are opposing the illegal occupation of their country by foreign invaders.

Incorrect. These “invaders” will leave as soon as the nation is safe. These militants are actually prolonging the stay. The US did not invade anyone to gain land or oil.

Why should Muslims in Iraq be expected to hand their brothers over to the occupying army?.. In order to avoid suffering “collateral damage”??

Because they should want those who would kill innocent and rape and destroy Christians in the name of Islam to be gone from their faith. You are basicaly saying that Muslims should not stop terrorists, or help those who would.

Christians do not even know whether or not inflicting “collateral damage” on innocent civilians is an act of evil, do they?

Intentionally targetting civilians, such as 9/11, is evil. Collateral damage is a bad by-product of war that must be minimized by any means possible.

Christians do not even know whether or not defending one’s land against foreign occupation is a meritorious act in the eyes of the Lord, do they?

That is more Islamic imperialism. No, it is not important. God does not care one bit about “land” or flags. The government has the right and resposibilty to protect its citizens. If you people will not police yourselves, we have to.

I would advise them to check up on their own Bible because the answers to these kind of questions are in there.

We are to forgive and not hate. It does not say that we should allow women and children to be killed by cowards and scum.

 

[hamba2han]

Those who support the killing and maiming of innocents in order to protect and preserve their “freedom & democracy” during their brief stay in this world will discover that neither freedom nor democracy exists in the place where they are headed to in the Hereafter… and there they will stay for all of eternity.

Just where is it stated in the Bible that you are permitted to kill and maim innocent people in the name of “freedom & democracy”??

 

[ralphinal]

Those who support the killing and maiming of innocents in order to protect and preserve their “freedom & democracy” during their brief stay in this world will discover that neither freedom nor democracy exists in the place where they are headed to in the Hereafter… and there they will stay for all of eternity.

Just where is it stated in the Bible that you are permitted to kill and maim innocent people in the name of “freedom & democracy”??

No where, as there is no concept of a democracy in that world. Same applies to the Koran.

Where does it say in the Koran to destroy any democracies that you see?

 

[Booklover]

Those who support the killing and maiming of innocents in order to protect and preserve their “freedom & democracy” during their brief stay in this world will discover that neither freedom nor democracy exists in the place where they are headed to in the Hereafter… and there they will stay for all of eternity.

Just where is it stated in the Bible that you are permitted to kill and maim innocent people in the name of “freedom & democracy”??

Since Muslims don’t consider any non-Muslim as “innocent”, does that give Muslims the right to subjugate us, humiliate us, force us to embrace Islam, or exterminate us?

Vickie

 

[Angelos]

Excellent post, Angelos! Thanks for stating it so clearly.

Vickie

You are welcome, my friend.

 

[cathopologist]

My advice to them would be to read the Qur’an and the Sunnah – in addition to the ahadith, the Sunnah also includes the Seerah which relates the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions (may Allah be pleased with them).

“O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. (The Noble Quran, 5:51)”

** Chapter 9: PERMISSIBILITY OF KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THE NIGHT RAIDS, PROVIDED IT IS NOT DELIBERATE **
* Book 019, Number 4321: * It is reported on the authority of Sa’b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them.

• Book 019, Number 4322: * It is narrated by Sa’b b. Jaththama that he said (to the Holy Prophet): Messenger of Allah, we kill the children of the polytheists during the night raids. He said: They are from them.
• Book 019, Number 4323: * Sa’b b. Jaththama has narrated that the Prophet (may peace be upon him) asked: What about the children of polytheists killed by the cavalry during the night raid? He said: They are from them.

Always refer to the Qur’an and the Sunnah in order to learn and understand the most acceptable and blessed way in the eyes of their Creator how Muslims should live their lives.

"O ye who believe! Take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport - whether among those who received the Scripture (i.e., the Bible) before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have Faith (indeed). (The Noble Quran, 5:57)

** Chapter 37: WRATH OF ALLAH UPON A PERSON WHO IS KILLED BY THE PROPHET HIMSELF (MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM) **
* Book 019, Number 4420: * It has been narrated by Hammam b. Munabbih who said: This is what has been related to us by Abu Huraira from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). (With this introduction) he narrated a number of traditions. One of these was that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Great is the wrath of Allah upon a people who have done this to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), and he was at that time pointing to his front teeth. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) also said: Great is the wrath of Allah upon a person who has been killed by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) in the way of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.

So this is what you’re going to tell them? Or perhaps they might quote the above from the Qur’an and Sunnah. Then what would your response be?

Also, you have not quite answered my other questions from the previous page:
Do you think all Christians and Jews are Zionist supporters? What would you advice a fellow Muslim if he/she lumps all Christians and Jews as “Zionists”? What would you say to correct their views?