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cathopologist
Guest
What does Muslim Woman or planten or Analyzer think of the questions above?
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Nicolas
Guest
Do you think all Muslims are terrorist supporters? What would you advice a fellow Christian if he/she lumps all Muslims as “Terrorists”? What would you say to correct their views?
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cathopologist
Guest
No i don’t think all Muslims are terrorist supporters. However, i do question their inability to fight terrorism. When i study the doctrine of kitman and taqiyya, it slowly unfolds the true agenda of their silence. I know some Muslims who are not pious and cannot care less of what goes on around the globe. But i also know other Muslims who are aware of what’s happening but keep silent.
Now don’t cower under your pillows and answer the questions above. This game Muslims play; answering questions with questions is despicably covert. There is no right or wrong answers. All i want is the truth from a Muslim.
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dzheremi
Guest
I suppose it’s not possible to steer this thread back to the original question at this point…but I’ll try anyway.
Nicolas: Do you love Christians?
Nicolas: Do you love Christians?
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Nicolas
Guest
How can I love billions of people who are Christians,Muslims or from any other religion without knowing them personally…
so simply, the answer is neither yes nor no…because I am more interested in individuals not groups.
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dzheremi
Guest
Hmm. Fair enough, I suppose. I am interested in both the individual and groups, and especially their ideas. I chose this topic for this thread because it sort of unites all these categories: what a group says about loving people outside of it (in the Quran or in the Bible or anywhere else) can tell us a lot about how that group thinks and operates, and the tension between the group and the individual (e.g. meedo and hamba2han’s discussion earlier in the thread) can also tell us a lot. Why not look at both.
You ask how you can love billions of people of any religion without knowing them personally. Why would you need to? Or is this your way of saying that there are good and bad in every group, and you can’t generalize “Christian good, Muslim bad” or anything like that? I agree with that, but it doesn’t really answer the question.
I guess I’m just looking for some level at which we can all say “okay…we agree to this extent that THIS is what reality is.” Because reading through many threads here there is a strange sort of dualism: Muslims claim to be more Christian than Christians while by that very claim demonstrating that they don’t really understand what Christianity is, and Catholics claim that Muslims worship a false God apparently forgetting Church teaching on this subject, or having some other definition of monotheism that allows for the existence of more than one God so long as they themsleves are not the ones being accused of worshipping this “other” God. I don’t understand this. Denial of Christ’s divinity is explicitly un-Christian. Denial of the existence of ONE God (whether God is to be found in the Trinity of Christianity or the tawhid of Islam’s Allah is, of course, the defining choice) is explicitly un-monotheistic (it may not be polytheistic, but it is not monotheistic). Is it my mental lexicon that is wrong? Or do things suddenly mean whatever it is we want them to mean because we don’t want to be associated with the other guy…
So it seems obvious to me that any point of agreement (and I use that word loosely; I’m not looking to hold hands and sing kumbaya with anyone, just a basic understanding of individual to individual that X is X) is not going to come on a theological level. Failing that, I turn to what is most natural for me because it certainly is a part of my theological understanding of God and the world: How can you not love people? Meet them, don’t meet them…how can you not love people? There has to be some sort of reason for it no matter what your answer is. Even if nobody is ever going to agree on this most basic of issues, I at least want to hear their reasons for disagreeing.
You ask how you can love billions of people of any religion without knowing them personally. Why would you need to? Or is this your way of saying that there are good and bad in every group, and you can’t generalize “Christian good, Muslim bad” or anything like that? I agree with that, but it doesn’t really answer the question.
I guess I’m just looking for some level at which we can all say “okay…we agree to this extent that THIS is what reality is.” Because reading through many threads here there is a strange sort of dualism: Muslims claim to be more Christian than Christians while by that very claim demonstrating that they don’t really understand what Christianity is, and Catholics claim that Muslims worship a false God apparently forgetting Church teaching on this subject, or having some other definition of monotheism that allows for the existence of more than one God so long as they themsleves are not the ones being accused of worshipping this “other” God. I don’t understand this. Denial of Christ’s divinity is explicitly un-Christian. Denial of the existence of ONE God (whether God is to be found in the Trinity of Christianity or the tawhid of Islam’s Allah is, of course, the defining choice) is explicitly un-monotheistic (it may not be polytheistic, but it is not monotheistic). Is it my mental lexicon that is wrong? Or do things suddenly mean whatever it is we want them to mean because we don’t want to be associated with the other guy…
So it seems obvious to me that any point of agreement (and I use that word loosely; I’m not looking to hold hands and sing kumbaya with anyone, just a basic understanding of individual to individual that X is X) is not going to come on a theological level. Failing that, I turn to what is most natural for me because it certainly is a part of my theological understanding of God and the world: How can you not love people? Meet them, don’t meet them…how can you not love people? There has to be some sort of reason for it no matter what your answer is. Even if nobody is ever going to agree on this most basic of issues, I at least want to hear their reasons for disagreeing.
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Nicolas
Guest
As I said I am more interested in individuals and not in groups…
take this analogy:
A programmer built and designed a (programming language) which contains several built-in lines of codes.
software developers pick and/or modify these codes to construct a software.
computer users use the software that fits them the most.
now,
programmer = God/prophet.
softwares =religions
software developers = scholars
computer users = people.
Do you blame people for choosing the wrong software because it is being monopolized , dominated and advertised in a certain region more than the other (e.g: Microsoft vs Apple
)
Also, many softwares come in different editions (old,pro,home,basic
) therefore, you have to be specific and not just say “Christians” or “Muslims” in general ,since there are many sects and groups.
**So If your question was “Do you love your Christans neighbors”
My answer would be : YES, as I know them well and they are very kind people and our church is very welcoming
**
Also, what If a user abused that software (e.g downloading pornographic materials) should I blame the software developer (Microsoft) or the software itself (windows) ?..
I would for sure blame that specific user and not any user happened to be using the same software…
I know,I’ve gone off topic (I’m a software engineer
)
take this analogy:
A programmer built and designed a (programming language) which contains several built-in lines of codes.
software developers pick and/or modify these codes to construct a software.
computer users use the software that fits them the most.
now,
programmer = God/prophet.
softwares =religions
software developers = scholars
computer users = people.
Do you blame people for choosing the wrong software because it is being monopolized , dominated and advertised in a certain region more than the other (e.g: Microsoft vs Apple
)Also, many softwares come in different editions (old,pro,home,basic
) therefore, you have to be specific and not just say “Christians” or “Muslims” in general ,since there are many sects and groups.**So If your question was “Do you love your Christans neighbors”
My answer would be : YES, as I know them well and they are very kind people and our church is very welcoming
**
Also, what If a user abused that software (e.g downloading pornographic materials) should I blame the software developer (Microsoft) or the software itself (windows) ?..
I would for sure blame that specific user and not any user happened to be using the same software…
I know,I’ve gone off topic (I’m a software engineer
)
R
ralphinal
Guest
I would use the statistics provided by groups that specialize in international security. Basically, no more than 10% are terrorists.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Not a bad analogy. I do wonder why you put God and Prophet on the same levelAs I said I am more interested in individuals and not in groups…
take this analogy:
A programmer built and designed a (programming language) which contains several built-in lines of codes.
software developers pick and/or modify these codes to construct a software.
computer users use the software that fits them the most.
now,
programmer = God/prophet.
softwares =religions
software developers = scholars
computer users = people.
Do you blame people for choosing the wrong software because it is being monopolized , dominated and advertised in a certain region more than the other (e.g: Microsoft vs Apple
Also, many softwares come in different editions (old,pro,home,basic
**So If your question was “Do you love your Christans neighbors”
My answer would be : YES, as I know them well and they are very kind people and our church is very welcoming
**
Also, what If a user abused that software (e.g downloading pornographic materials) should I blame the software developer (Microsoft) or the software itself (windows) ?..
I would for sure blame that specific user and not any user happened to be using the same software…
I know,I’ve gone off topic (I’m a software engineer
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Where did this 10% analogy come from?
10% of 1.2 billion is 120 million. Do you really think there are 120 million terrorists? Maybe you do… I don’t.
Anyway, as usually happens to a thread with ‘Muslims’ or ‘Islam’ in the title, the thread attracts certain parasites who seem to thrive on sucking the life out of polite, well-intended threads.
But I’ll reply anyway.
My parents are Christians. And I love them.
And there are many other Christians whom I know and love as well. Just like there are many Jews whom I also love. And they are my friends.
They are not my allies against the Muslims, which the Qur’an forbids. In fact, this verse is the one which comes in to play:
60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
10% of 1.2 billion is 120 million. Do you really think there are 120 million terrorists? Maybe you do… I don’t.
Anyway, as usually happens to a thread with ‘Muslims’ or ‘Islam’ in the title, the thread attracts certain parasites who seem to thrive on sucking the life out of polite, well-intended threads.
But I’ll reply anyway.
My parents are Christians. And I love them.
And there are many other Christians whom I know and love as well. Just like there are many Jews whom I also love. And they are my friends.
They are not my allies against the Muslims, which the Qur’an forbids. In fact, this verse is the one which comes in to play:
60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
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dzheremi
Guest
But this thread isn’t about blaming anyone for anything. This thread is about how Muslims view Christians, and in turn, how we all view one another. It isn’t a test. I’m not trying to punish or reward anyone, just hear their thoughts and their reasoning.Do you blame people for choosing the wrong software because it is being monopolized , dominated and advertised in a certain region more than the other (e.g: Microsoft vs Apple
Of course, but have you noticed that many in neither camp recognizes this? We have Muslim posters who want to lump every Christian in with very un-orthodox sects because they can make Christianity look sillier and most contradictory that way, and we have Christian posters who think that any Muslim is a terrorist by definition. This is their own interpretation, which may or may not be in line with what their scripture or scholars say. So that’s why I tried to make clear in my opening post and in my reply to hamba2han’s post that I am not as interested in what Islam says in general (in the Quran), but how individual Muslims interpret that and apply it to their daily lives. I am interested in the individual both on their own terms and for what their thoughts can tell me about the group as a whole. The individual user and the software in its various platforms, to use your analogy.Also, many softwares come in different editions (old,pro,home,basic
Well, no, you shouldn’t blame the software developer. Each user is responsible for their own usage of the software. But again, this thread is not about blaming anyone for anything, but asking what they believe and why.
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dzheremi
Guest
This is an interesting reply. Thank you, Sister Amy.
I wonder about you, though. You are an American convert to Islam, and while that in no way diminishes the value of your (name removed by moderator)ut in this thread, I am not sure how much of what you have written above is a result of your intimate contact with Christians in your own family and previous faith community. This is only relevant because I’m not sure that born-Muslims ever have a similar level of contact (or, in some cases, any contact at all) with Christians, so on what basis would those people (the majority of Muslims) even be able to know Christians? It is one thing to say “My Christian neighbor is nice; Christians that are like him are good”. That’s why I asked whether or not Muslims love Christians. You can behave in a just and friendly manner towards people without loving them. So that verse that you’ve shared really says a lot, because it isn’t talking about love.
Is there any Qur’anic verse about loving non-Muslims, or Christians specifically? Is there any consensus in mainstream Islam about loving Christians in general? I know many Christians in the Muslim countries will convert to Islam for the love of a Muslim, but this is different than adhering to a general attitude of “I love Christians”.
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ralphinal
Guest
I will elaborate. The 10% would be those who would condone violence against anyone that is not exactly like them. It may or may not be people who have the nerve to actually do anything against anyone else.Where did this 10% analogy come from?
10% of 1.2 billion is 120 million. Do you really think there are 120 million terrorists? Maybe you do… I don’t.
Anyway, as usually happens to a thread with ‘Muslims’ or ‘Islam’ in the title, the thread attracts certain parasites who seem to thrive on sucking the life out of polite, well-intended threads.
But I’ll reply anyway.
My parents are Christians. And I love them.
And there are many other Christians whom I know and love as well. Just like there are many Jews whom I also love. And they are my friends.
They are not my allies against the Muslims, which the Qur’an forbids. In fact, this verse is the one which comes in to play:
60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
B
Booklover
Guest
There is no such thing in Islam as “love your neighbor as yourself” unless it applies to other Muslims, and even then there’s lots of violence even among themselves. All you’ll get are evasive answers. Muslims don’t consider unbelievers as their equals. They are the “elite” and everyone else is inferior. Islam is all about the “us versus they” mentality.
Vickie
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dzheremi
Guest
With all due respect, Vickie, I would like to hear Sister Amy’s thoughts. I already know what many Christians would say in response to these questions. If there is such a thing as love for the non-believer in Islam, let a Muslim who wants to correct your assertion present you with the evidence of it. If there is not, let them present that, too. Either one would answer my question.
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morning_star777
Guest
Dear friend
,as a former muslim(who is still living with muslim family) I know their answer.In front of you,muslims will claim that they loves us,because they have to prove islam as a peacefull religion .But reality is different.I told many times that I just met 2/3 muslims in my life who do not hate non muslims(including us).But may be in this thread some muslims will play tricks or word game if they will answer.(like they will answer your question in a philosophical way ).Please do not misunderstand with any tricks or word games.Just remember my brother,most of them dislike(or hate) us in their mind.as I say,In my life I just see 2/3 muslims who do not hate non muslim peoples.now i will read all posts .God bless you.
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morning_star777
Guest
Dear hamba2han,then what is it?**5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
er them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular c29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 38. O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. 39. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things.
Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
er them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular c29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 38. O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. 39. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things.
73.O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. 74. They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.
**.Can you answer me?show your love to an apostate(it is me) and answer me honestly.But Read verse number 74 very carefully then reply.Bless you.
P.S. I will give more references(about the love of allah for christians and other non muslims) from this same sura.Let me read.
M
morning_star777
Guest
Dear hamba2han,is that the love of allah to non muslims?** 5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 38. O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. 39. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things.
73.O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. 74. They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them. **.explain these verses of quran.Can you show your love to an apostate(it’s me) by replying with honest explanation??but read verse number 74 very carefully and then reply if you wish.Bless you.
P.S. I will show more references from this same surah about the love of allah to christians,but let me read more.
M
morning_star777
Guest
More references about the love(!) of allah to christians and other non muslims.Sura 9:
14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, 16. Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well- acquainted with (all) that ye do. 17. It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell. 28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. 35. On the Day when heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the fire of Hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, their flanks, and their backs.- “This is the (treasure) which ye buried for yourselves: taste ye, then, the (treasures) ye buried!” 63. Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, is the Fire of Hell?- wherein they shall dwell. That is the supreme disgrace. 90. And there were, among the desert Arabs (also), men who made excuses and came to claim exemption; and those who were false to Allah and His Messenger (merely) sat inactive. Soon will a grievous penalty seize the Unbelievers among them.So this is the sign of love to us or other non muslims.Who want this type of love?
14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, 16. Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well- acquainted with (all) that ye do. 17. It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell. 28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. 35. On the Day when heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the fire of Hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, their flanks, and their backs.- “This is the (treasure) which ye buried for yourselves: taste ye, then, the (treasures) ye buried!” 63. Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, is the Fire of Hell?- wherein they shall dwell. That is the supreme disgrace. 90. And there were, among the desert Arabs (also), men who made excuses and came to claim exemption; and those who were false to Allah and His Messenger (merely) sat inactive. Soon will a grievous penalty seize the Unbelievers among them.So this is the sign of love to us or other non muslims.Who want this type of love?
M
morning_star777
Guest
sorry i forgot to write the number of this surah(post number # 57).so i corrected it now.this is surah 9
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