An improper Mass

  • Thread starter Thread starter oecclesia
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
O

oecclesia

Guest
I am an American living in Mexico. There is one Mass in my city that is in English and many residents and tourists attend. But, the entire readings are by the lay, including the writing and reading of the homily. The attendants tell me it’s OK because they can’t understand the priest’s English, so they have taken it over. The priest has a heavy Spanish accent, but a little patience? My debate has led to hard feelings, but I am certain the lay cannot do this. Help please? :confused:
 
40.png
oecclesia:
I am an American living in Mexico. There is one Mass in my city that is in English and many residents and tourists attend. But, the entire readings are by the lay, including the writing and reading of the homily. The attendants tell me it’s OK because they can’t understand the priest’s English, so they have taken it over. The priest has a heavy Spanish accent, but a little patience? My debate has led to hard feelings, but I am certain the lay cannot do this. Help please? :confused:
Click to expand...
The Gospel and the Homily must be by the Priest or Deacon. There is no provision for not understanding the language.

PF
 
40.png
oecclesia:
I am an American living in Mexico. There is one Mass in my city that is in English and many residents and tourists attend. But, the entire readings are by the lay, including the writing and reading of the homily. The attendants tell me it’s OK because they can’t understand the priest’s English, so they have taken it over. The priest has a heavy Spanish accent, but a little patience? My debate has led to hard feelings, but I am certain the lay cannot do this. Help please? :confused:
Click to expand...
That is obviously wrong. If the priest’s English is that bad, he should look for a more fluent Deacon or ask his Bishop to get a more fluent priest for that mass. If they don’t have any other more fluent Deacon or Priest (which of cource Mexico should have lots of fluent clergy), then the priest should write up the homily and distribute copies to the congregation so that it would be more understandeable and/or just say a shorter homily, slower, louder and clearer.

I suggest to remind the pastor about Apostolic Succession, his vow of loyalty to the Church, and get him a copy of the Mexican version of the GIRM, which is the country’s rules and guidelines for the liturgy set by the local Mexican Conference of Bishops. The first two readings can be read by any lay Catholic (male or female). The Gospel (or Evangelio [spanish]) is always supposed to be read by a man with the sacrament of Holy Orders which is a priest or deacon. The Homily must be said by a priest. Of course, the priest or deacon must also be validly ordained Catholics. You can’t use a Protestant minister or Eastern Orthodox priest, lol.
 
Also, if the pastor refuses and rejects your claim, you should go and report him to his Bishop. If the Bishop also rejects, then report him to the Mexican Conference of Bishops and also to the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome. You can probably get a Canon Lawyer to do something about it. Maybe he can handle the whole thing for you, I think. Don’t give up.
 
A little authoritative help for you when you go to the priest. Redemptoris Sacramentum was put out by Cardinal Arinze at the vatican under orders from JP II last summer I beleive it was.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWRDSAC.HTM
In it he says:
  1. “Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”,139 is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister.140 Thus it is** not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass,** nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.141
  2. The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,142 “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but NEVER to a layperson.143 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.144
  3. It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.145** This practice is reprobat**ed, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.
  4. The** prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass** applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.146
I think that’s pretty clear. Show it to your priest. You are on solid ground so stand your ground, keeping charity in mind of course. You need not fear or become angry when you are on the side of what is right. Just stand firm and give God time to work. It took me three years to get communal penance services that used General Absolution out of our parish. I kept notifying the Bishop and he finally put an end to it.

Hope that helps.
 
40.png
thessalonian:
A little authoritative help for you when you go to the priest. Redemptoris Sacramentum was put out by Cardinal Arinze at the vatican under orders from JP II last summer I beleive it was.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWRDSAC.HTM
In it he says:
  1. “Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”,139 is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister.140 Thus it is** not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass,** nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.141
  2. The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,142 “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but NEVER to a layperson.143 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.144
  3. It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.145** This practice is reprobat**ed, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.
  4. The** prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass** applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.146
I think that’s pretty clear. Show it to your priest. You are on solid ground so stand your ground, keeping charity in mind of course. You need not fear or become angry when you are on the side of what is right. Just stand firm and give God time to work. It took me three years to get communal penance services that used General Absolution out of our parish. I kept notifying the Bishop and he finally put an end to it.

Hope that helps.
Click to expand...
Thessalonian:

Hey great reference! Even better yet, the Vatican website has it translated in spanish for you: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_present-card-arinze_sp.html

So, just look for the numbers of the verses Thessalonian pointed to you and show it to your pastor. He’ll be able to understand it better in spanish.
 
☘️ :blessyou:
Oh thank you all for your responses!! I can now speak to the priest with the confidence of a final liturgical reference point. This is not going to please the attendants much, as the attitude of is in my view highly irreverent both of the Mass and the priest. Slowly the lay have taken over this Mass. But at least with attendance between only 10-40 the priest does refuse to allow the Eucharist out of his hands despite the pressure.

My diplomacy with the lay is not well developed to say the least. I am hopeful that the priest will explain the position to them. Alternatively, I occassionally write Guest Editorials for the local American newspaper here, mostly addressing and debating misconceptions etc., regarding historical events authored by other writers, and thought I might submit a piece simply defining The Mass. Any ideas?
 
We had a young Filipino Priest with us last summer, whose “best” language was Italian because he had been studying for his doctorate in Rome. His English was not good.

He wrote out his homilies in Italian, had them translated into English by a member of the congregation, then he would practice pronunciation with an English-speaker. He was still pretty hard to understand but his sincere and careful efforts were much appreciated and admired by the people here.
 
You are fortunate. I think the Mexican priest here is intimidated and as with most people in Mexico he genuinely wants to please people. I myself felt silenced by the small congregation when I brought up this concern about the homily to several members and as the response was immediately and forcefully defended soley in personal terms. I was baffled as the issue of sacrament and reverence for liturgy is a side issue and I am still baffled.

I have tried again today to discuss this disorder with the lay and offered myself to translate the priest’s “own” homily or to provide an on site translator to allow the priest and everyone else to have the proper Mass. Regretably, he discussion became hostile. I have also offered to pay for fresh flowers for the alter to replace the artificial ones. When I simply becag to have them delivered and placed in the chapel (the nuns were REALLY happy), I was told by the lay that it was unacceptable. Metaphor?

I am not to be deterred and will go directly to the priest now with the references provided by all of you. He is a very kind and humble man. He also hears my confession. I am also the only lay person to go to him for confession being told the same excuse that they cannot understand his English. I say my confession in Spanish and he speaks English and I understand him just fine.

Also, as new participant here I may have been in error asking for ideas for my guest op-eds. If so, I retract and can do this myself. Thank you!
 
I believe it is permissible to have a translator verbally translate the homily as it is being presented by an ordained minister (I know this is OK for sign language, so I don’t see why it would be different for a spoken language). But I imagine it would be tedious to listen to a homily presented in such a manner. It may be OK as far as the “rules” go, but I don’t think it would be such a great idea.
 
When I visit Mexico, I go to a regular Catholic Church where everyone else goes. I don’t expect the Mass to be in English. That is because Mexico is a Spanish speaking country.

I’ve never had any problems with Masses in Mexico.
 
They don’t have to hear the Gospel exactly. If they don’t have it printed, then they can get the readings in advance of Mass and study them so I don’t care so much if I can’t hear the Gospel clearly. It still has mystical value in its reading at Mass I believe, and I should already know it so I can maybe catch some.

As far as the homily, instead of kicking the guy out, if he HAS to speak the homily, why not have him speak in his own language, and have an interpreter repeat it in relatively clear English.

Whose job is it anyway to determine if a Mass is valid? If I go to a Catholic Church and think they do something wrong with the liturgy, then was my Communion valid? I realize the question of “improper” is a somewhat different question and I don’t intend to try to confuse the two.

Alan
 
Thank you everyone for your advice and (name removed by moderator)ut. I will post again when I have taken some steps to restore the Mass.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top