"An index of Catholicism's decline"- Pat Buchanan

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Salvation by works is not only foreign to the Catholic Faith, but Protestantism as well, and Christianity absolutely.

Not even **sola-scriptura **warrants such a “do as thou wilt” philosophy.

“For themselves,” you say ? Then “save yourself” is what you say.
Are we still sacrificing lambs in our back yard?

Those who adhere to sola scripture don’t believe Mary has a significant role, nor do they believe in saints (strictly speaking of Baptists and most holiness), or “men” hearing confessions or rote prayers…or drinking or dancing.

OTOH…lots of drinking and dancing going on at Catholic wedding receptions.😉
 
Who?

Who?
Julianna,

Well, here are some, leaving aside Church Encyclicals, Apostolic Exhortations, Papal Bulls etc. But these were some substantial thinkers over the years, focusing on the earlier years…the names in recent history continue but have split into all sorts of sub specialties (natural law, etc.).

But anyone’s opinion today totally overrides this collective and tedious and time tested work :>

Tertullian
Clement of Alexandria
St. Justin
Origen
St. Ambrose
St. Augustine
St. Thomas Aquinas (and all his tedious integration with pre-Christian philosophy, Aristotle) mainly. Just pick up Summa for an hour.
St. Basil
St. Bonaventure
Abelard
Alexander of Hales
St. Jerome
the Franciscans (many)
the Dominican (many)
the Jesuits (many)
Henry of Ghent
Nicholas of Cusa

Read the Catechism from paragraph 1775 on downward.
 
Julianna,

Well, here are some, leaving aside Church Encyclicals, Apostolic Exhortations, Papal Bulls etc. But these were some substantial thinkers over the years, focusing on the earlier years…the names in recent history continue but have split into all sorts of sub specialties (natural law, etc.).

But anyone’s opinion today totally overrides this collective and tedious and time tested work :>

Tertullian
Clement of Alexandria
St. Justin
Origen
St. Ambrose
St. Augustine
St. Thomas Aquinas (and all his tedious integration with pre-Christian philosophy, Aristotle) mainly. Just pick up Summa for an hour.
St. Basil
St. Bonaventure
Abelard
Alexander of Hales
St. Jerome
the Franciscans (many)
the Dominican (many)
the Jesuits (many)
Henry of Ghent
Nicholas of Cusa
thanks…just as a thought. All human, all fallible. Definition: Tending or likely to be erroneous: fallible. In a sentence. “Everyone is fallible to some degree”.

All born, all given the gift of intelligence, wisdom, talent…just like all of God’s children…all mortal, all with a conscience. Not better, not perfect, human.

How many are Americans? How many are women? How many were born after 1900? 1800?
 
Good list, and there are lots of factors. Instead of another counter-reformation I think the church needs a new Pentecost as Pope John XXIII hoped for.
Indeed. But the two are not opposed. Pentecost effects reformation, in the lives of those who produce the fruit of the Spirit, and therefore, in the parishes to which they belong.
 
pricilla ann if you are your family refuse to accept all catholic teachings then your not catholics, your just catholic in name but not in faith. hell is a real place and lasts forever.
pope leo during the consecration of mass heard a dialouge between the devil and jesus.
the devil said i will destroy your church just give me time and total power over does who will give themselves to me, jesus asked him how much time, devil replied 100 years jesus said you can have it.
pope leo then went about writing the st michael prayer to be said after every mass. in the fiftys this was shortened, in the 60 it was no longer allowed to be said by the priest after mass. look around you, we all have free will to enter hell and most are well on their way.
 
pricilla ann if you are your family refuse to accept all catholic teachings then your not catholics, your just catholic in name but not in faith. hell is a real place and lasts forever.
pope leo during the consecration of mass heard a dialouge between the devil and jesus.
the devil said i will destroy your church just give me time and total power over does who will give themselves to me, jesus asked him how much time, devil replied 100 years jesus said you can have it.
pope leo then went about writing the st michael prayer to be said after every mass. in the fiftys this was shortened, in the 60 it was no longer allowed to be said by the priest after mass. look around you, we all have free will to enter hell and most are well on their way.
Scare tactics are never helpful, nor are they believable. To say that priscilla ann is not Catholic…is like saying “you” know better. I don’t, and neither do you know the will of people, nor do you know where their destiny lies. Unlike you, I don’t give it credence…(the time of day). If you (and it seems you have) studied evil extensively, you know that evil is vain…loves attention. Score 1.
 
Are we still sacrificing lambs in our back yard?

Those who adhere to sola scripture don’t believe Mary has a significant role, nor do they believe in saints (strictly speaking of Baptists and most holiness), or “men” hearing confessions or rote prayers…or drinking or dancing.

OTOH…lots of drinking and dancing going on at Catholic wedding receptions.😉
Nevermind 🙂
 
From the OP: Liars figure, but figures don’t lie.

There’s a whole lotta figurin’ goin’ on in the collective above. I suspect there’ll be a whole lotta figurin’ goin’ on below too.
 
From the OP: Liars figure, but figures don’t lie.

There’s a whole lotta figurin’ goin’ on in the collective above. I suspect there’ll be a whole lotta figurin’ goin’ on below too.
As long as human nature exists…yes 😃
 
no julianna your wrong if i said you were not a catholic i would be wrong but priscila ann said herself she doesn’t follow the “man made rules of the church” she is a christan but doesn’t follow all catholic teaching. it is the church that says she is excluded. “scare tactics” again catholic teaching.
there is i think something like 38000 new forms of christanity started each week. but there is one that won’t change its dogma neither can it.
 
thanks…just as a thought. All human, all fallible. Definition: Tending or likely to be erroneous: fallible. In a sentence. “Everyone is fallible to some degree”.

All born, all given the gift of intelligence, wisdom, talent…just like all of God’s children…all mortal, all with a conscience. Not better, not perfect, human.

How many are Americans? How many are women? How many were born after 1900? 1800?
Many good questions.

The Church is organic. it consists of fallible people who have been given gifts as you point out. You might want to read up on how intellectual matters get developed and refined and approved in the Church; it’s quite involved and methodical and slow. It’s the Holy Spirit who assures infallible development on matters of faith and morals. Not humans.

As I pointed out, as is true with any field…take engineering…there are many subs specialties today that didn’t exist 50 years ago. One doesn’t get a phd in engineering…one is more apt to get a phd in biomedical engineering, etc.

I am not a specialist in moral theology and the surrounding scholarship as it exists today.

I know that there are many many women faculty studying these topics…their work bubbles up as does the men’s. How many are Americans? Not sure, US universities are full of scholars as are other countries. Not sure what difference it makes where one studies as to the value of their scholarly work on matters of conscience. There’s like a bazillion Pontifical Universities focused on science and scholarship.

There’s a great university in Spain. The University of Navarre that is world renowned in many disciplines.

The Church recognizes unique and substantial personal contributions of intellectual development that feeds slowly into Church Doctrine - there are formal Doctors of the church…off the top of my head there are at least 3 women on this relatively short list.

St. Catherine of Siena
St. Teresa of Avila
St. Thérèse of Lisieux
 
A couple quick thoughts from somewhat raised within both the Catholic and Protestant heritage - relatives ‘on both sides’.
Code:
 1. **This constant dependence upon the Church Fathers to somehow establish eternal truth is questionable.** I have read many of them and find that many of their writings are filled with false data of all kinds, based on the era in which they lived. Without modern telescopes they believed all sorts of nonsense about the heavens - basically the three tier idea that there was a heaven up there, an earth here, and a hell down there. Their concept of the universe was myopic when today we know that there could be a million or a billion solar systems. And disease. Many of them dealt with illness as caused by demons or God's punishment or some other superstition. 

 Just one comment about St. Thomas Aquinas. I wrote my undergraduate thesis on him so became rather well-acquainted with his thought. He was a remarkable thinker and writer. But, for example, he argued that 'heretics' should be turned over to the state to be executed! That statement, among others of his, undercut my willingness to view his total work as that reliable.

Abelard, as I recall, wrote a whole book entitled *Sic et Non *in which he showed how Popes contradicted one another. St. Jerome sided with the Protestant and Jewish view on the canonical books of the Old Testament. And we could go on. Yes, the Church Fathers are to be admired for their thinking considering their era, perhaps, but they aren't all that helpful today.

 2. **I ran across a quote somewhere that goes somewhat like this: "Doubt comes in the window if inquiry is denied at the door**." A basic problem of an iron-fist version of Catholicism is that it can suffocate those who want to think for themselves in various areas of theology and religious practice. Was it Hans Kung who was 'disciplined' by the Church because he indulged in some 'incorrect' thinking? One of my favorite magazines had been "America" published by the Jesuits. As I understand it, its editor was replaced because of his 'dangerous' ideas. True? It's hard to convince Americans accustomed to an attitude of 'think and let think' to accept handed-down beliefs and practices that must be accepted just because they have been approved by the Papacy and Magisterium. I know that expressing such an opinion leads to criticism like 'who do you think you are?' or 'diversity of views leads to dissension and division' (like the Protestants!), But what is one to do if his/her conscience leads him/her to take issue with the church? What, for example, if a faithful Catholic couple feel they have all the children they can properly care for well and use 'artificial' birth control? I have friends who faithfully tried the approved method and it failed them twice! Lots of Catholics have had chinks made in their shield of faith because of that issue. Once we question one church policy it becomes quite easy to question others. Catholic doctrine is built on the requirement that we accept it all or the whole thing can come crashing down. How about a 'big tent' church that permits more independent inquiry and a wider range of conclusions?

 3.** In posting #6 I noted that some elderly Protestant kinfolk (now deceased) had regarded Hitler, Mussolini and Franco as Catholics, which helped undergird their suspicion of Catholicism**. This was contested and justifiably to some degree. Their arguments, as I recall, included the fact that all three were baptized Catholics, none was excommunicated by the Pope, both Pius XI and XII signed treaties with Hitler and Mussolini, certain key Italian, German and Spanish Catholics gave their full and public support to the three, Hitler in his speeches sought to rally Christian support by stressing his effort to 'save Christian civilization from the Bolsheviks', Hitler and Mussolini aided Franco in the Spanish Civil War, Hitler's earliest base of strong support was in Bavaria, a strongly Catholic area - and we could go on. Hitler once was quoted as saying that he was and always would remain a Catholic. 

  Now, we know that Hitler was actually opposed to Christianity because he thought it promoted meekness instead of toughness, and we also know that a number of key Christians (Catholics and Protestants, both) were executed, some of whom were deeply involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler. As to whether the Popes should have been more direct in their criticism of the three dictators - that will be debated on and on. They certainly favored Franco in a Civil War where both sides (my view) became anti-democratic as that war went on. Interestingly, since Franco, Spain quickly has become one of the most liberal countries in Europe, with same-sex marriage. This suggests that the Catholic Church has lost the immense influence it had when he was in power. 

  I can become garrulous. Sorry. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier. God bless his children of every creed, color and country.
 
the church only publicly excommunicates someone when there may be some doubt in the public at large if the crime they committed is an offence that leads to excommunication.
so saying that Hitler was never excommunicated is rubish and inferring that the church agreed with him.
 
maybe you should also show where hitler said he was a catholic and would always be
as i recall the nazies had there own form of christanity called positive christanity that claimed jesus was german and never a jew
 
Hitler’s earliest base of strong support was in Bavaria, a strongly Catholic area - and we could go on. Hitler once was quoted as saying that he was and always would remain a Catholic.
You need to do more research there. National Socialism was intent on creating a new state religion and suppressing Christianity. Hitler’s love of lying to Christians stemmed from his intense hatred thereof. I strictly recall in my 20th Century History lessons seeing examples of this “new religion” and its perverted account of Creation, so as to glorify the National Socialist ideal and racial prejudices. Hitler’s designs for a new Berlin as a world-capital purposefully intended to take the Basilicas of Rome and aggrandize them in scale and appearance (the vanity!), as if to out-do their splendour and mock their authority.

Hitler joined a break-away Masonic lodge for a while, and thus defacto excommunicated himself. If he knew anything about Catholicism he would have known such membership automatically excommunicated him.

Associating Catholicism with fascism is intellectual fraud. The two are utterly contrary to one another, and seek radically different ends. Nothing in Catholicism would lead a mind or conscience to develop a racial and nationalistic ideal at the expense of the worth, value or dignity of other souls, especially because its very teachings are catholic (universal, as you know). These attempts to undermine the Church by making it appear they had any logical reason whatsoever to support or condone fascism, which ideology competed with the Christian religion, is nonsense.

National Socialism is a synthesis of Neitzche’s uber-mench with Darwin’s Evolution. The philosophy of the former and the intellectual perversions arising by some out of the other were both attacked by Catholic intellectuals and damned as serious errors by certain Popes. Any learned Catholic would know the underlying hostility to the Church and especially the Faith that is found in philosophies and theories arising from those schools of thought : that their combination into a perverse Nazi pseudo-science resulted in the murder of millions of innocence only shows how right the Church was to warn of their errors and encourage temperance in their study and application.

The Church openly and officially condemned National Socialism as deeply flawed and erroneous even before the outbreak of WWII, and this while most states still hoped for appeasement. I would share with you the Bull to that effect ; however, it’s in German and so I cannot recall the title. A google search should bring it up quickly.

Pax,
Tim
 
The Church openly and officially condemned National Socialism as deeply flawed and erroneous even before the outbreak of WWII, and this while most states still hoped for appeasement. I would share with you the Bull to that effect ; however, it’s in German and so I cannot recall the title. A google search should bring it up quickly.
It was Mit brennender Sorge (“With burning anxiety”).
 
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