An injustice towards priests

[Allen537]

It seems to me that many priests in the church today are being delt a great injustice. We are members of a church whose central message is the forgivness of sins through Christ’s death on the cross, and the church is ever ready to forgive the sins of the faithful. But it seems to me that there are many in the church who refuse to forgive the sins of a priest who brings scandal to the church.

While he may fully receive the sacrament of pennance, for many priests, its a “one strike and you’re out” kind of situation. Many are not allowed to return active ministry.

Let’s say that a 30 year old priest is found to have had sex with a 30 year old, single woman from his parish. This is something that would not be uncommon amongst many lay people, they would just have to repent and go to confession and be absolved and they would go on about their lives.

But what about the priest? Why is he not given the same opportunity? Because of the sex abuse scandals, it is very possible that he would not be allowed to return to the active ministry, hence, he can not go on with his life. I don’t think that it is fair to go after a priest who made a mistake that many lay people themselves make.

 

[mumto5]

Allen537:

It seems to me that many priests in the church today are being delt a great injustice. We are members of a church whose central message is the forgivness of sins through Christ’s death on the cross, and the church is ever ready to forgive the sins of the faithful. But it seems to me that there are many in the church who refuse to forgive the sins of a priest who brings scandal to the church.

While he may fully receive the sacrament of pennance, for many priests, its a “one strike and you’re out” kind of situation. Many are not allowed to return active ministry.

Let’s say that a 30 year old priest is found to have had sex with a 30 year old, single woman from his parish. This is something that would not be uncommon amongst many lay people, they would just have to repent and go to confession and be absolved and they would go on about their lives.

But what about the priest? Why is he not given the same opportunity? Because of the sex abuse scandals, it is very possible that he would not be allowed to return to the active ministry, hence, he can not go on with his life. I don’t think that it is fair to go after a priest who made a mistake that many lay people themselves make.

I believe the priest does and he also enjoys the seal of the confessional should he confess. I would have no problem with a priest who sinned in the way you outlined - with an adult consenting person.

OTOH, those who sin by molesting children should be out on one strike. Not because of the scandal, because of the nature of their crime. As far as I’m concerned, that is not forgivable.

 

[Brain]

and also that adults who molest children generally are cracked to the point that they have a very high liklihood of reoffending.

 

[m134e5]

RE: An injustice towards priests.

1.) People sue dioceses for things priests and bishops did (who may no longer even be alive!) even more than 20 years ago. Who pays for it? The bishops and priests are dead. Living ones may be brought to court, but they can’t pay all the damages themselves. Who pays the price?

2.) People who SHOULD have been the most trustworthy people around committed some of the most traumatic acts a person can commit against somebody. Who has to defend the role of the priesthood, and try and encourage fidelity in others to the Church when her own spouses molested her most innocent and vulnerable members?

The injustice towards the priests is FAR outweighed by the injustice done by the priests to the laity, in my opinion.

We are the ones seeing church property (which WE pay for- by our tithe, and often by more than that) sold- without our consent- to pay off abuse settlements.

We are the ones who have our hearts broken when priests we cared about- especially dead ones who cannot defend themselves- are accused of these horrible crimes.

We are the ones who think “that priest baptized me”, “that priest heard my first confession”, “that priest gave me my first Communion”, “that priest witnessed my marriage”. “That priest talked to me when I was going through tough times, and needed someone to talk to”. “That priest said my ______'s funeral Mass”.

We are the ones who have to explain to our children that the priest we taught them to respect did something horrible to a child- or children. We are the ones who go to school and/or work and get the strange looks and insulting comments and questions- because we’re Catholic, and a priest couldn’t keep his pants on, and a negligent bishop swept the problem under the rug.

There is injustice towards priests…
…but the injustice towards the laity is far worse.

 

[m134e5]

mumto5:

As far as I’m concerned, that is not forgivable.

Be careful…all sin is forgiveable- if the person asks for forgiveness. Don’t get me wrong- this is a despicable crime- among the worst I can think of. I am not diminishing the seriousness or the intense pain (There are no words to describe such pain) that can follow for the rest of the victim’s life. We must pray for those in pain as a result of this. We must also pray for the priests who did this- no sin is above God’s mercy.

 

[mumto5]

m134e5:

Be careful…all sin is forgiveable- if the person asks for forgiveness. Don’t get me wrong- this is a despicable crime- among the worst I can think of. I am not diminishing the seriousness or the intense pain (There are no words to describe such pain) that can follow for the rest of the victim’s life. We must pray for those in pain as a result of this. We must also pray for the priests who did this- no sin is above God’s mercy.

Yes, I know what you mean. I should have been more clear. I’m talking more personally and at a human level. Of course all things, no matter how terrible, are able to be forgiven by God.

My own thoughts are that since it can’t be guaranteed he will not reoffend, and because of the position he occupies, a priest that sins in this way cannot be ‘forgiven’ in the sense that they can be in a position to commit this crime again. I would leave any parish where I knew the priest had commited such an act. YMMV on that one but as far as I’m concerned, one strike and he’s out as a priest.

I think the OP was taling more of sexual sin between a priest and a consenting adult though, in which case, I’d just put it down to human weakness and wouldn’t think any more of it. It’s between him and God, none of my business.

 

[CatholicCid]

We are the ones who go to school and/or work and get the strange looks and insulting comments and questions- because we’re Catholic, and a priest couldn’t keep his pants on, and a negligent bishop swept the problem under the rug.

Well, aren’t such comments “harassment” in the workplace or public schools… Though, these would offer opportunity to evangelize (sp?)

Though, as to Dead Priests being accused and such… I really hate such things… Just for the fact the victim isn’t around to try and protect his name which might be false accusations (Note: Not saying they are)

Just out of curiosity, can a rape victim sue the rapist for money? Or would they have a criminal trial? Can one sue the families of dead rapists for a sum of money from the crime?

We are the ones who think “that priest baptized me”, “that priest heard my first confession”, “that priest gave me my first Communion”, “that priest witnessed my marriage”. “That priest talked to me when I was going through tough times, and needed someone to talk to”. “That priest said my ______'s funeral Mass”.

We can also think “Priest are only humans as well, and humans fall”

We are the ones seeing church property (which WE pay for- by our tithe, and often by more than that) sold- without our consent- to pay off abuse settlements.

If one gives a donation, they usually lose claim to what it goes for right? And what they can do with say, property they buy with such donations…

 

[Brain]

there in injustice to the clergy, injustice to the laity, injustice all around. You will find that such things happen in the wake of notorius sin. all we can do is trust dioceses to screen men entering the priesthood properly, and pray a simple petition and vow: “never again, lord.”

There are tons of teachers who molest students, they are on the news maybe if they do somthing especially sick. But for a priest to do such a thing is (if it were possible) more revolting than if any other perpetrator did it, because the corruption of what is best is what is worst.

but/and for those who say the pain for the laity is especially hard, i do not deny that we ahve been pained in the last few years, but on a personal level I think the clergy tears are the most bitter. I refer you to somthing Fr Corapi said a yea ror two ago, “How do you think I feel? YOU dont have to walk around like THIS” (referring to his clerics), We get to sit back and talk about this at a distance, we can keep silent if the topic comes up and avoid the arguement with non catholics. A priest cannot escape this persecution for even a moment.

 

[springbreeze]

Dear friend

There is no exception to any sin that we should forgive. God forgives all sins that are repented of and confessed and so should we. I read in one post that a poster felt the sin of molesting children was unforgiveable. That is their choice to feel that but it is certainly not Catholic teaching. We must forgive ALL sins.

No person can sit and chalk up one sinner as a worse sinner than themselves as all people have and continue to sin. If we have no mercy for sinners, how do we as sinners expect to receive mercy.

Any sin a Priest commits should be forgiven in the same manner as a layperson is forgiven and no person should be marked out for different treatment.

It is most certainly human to err and to sin, but it is most certainly Divine to forgive. If we are to be Christ-like ourselves we must forgive and without measure, so we too are forgiven without measure and receive mercy.

Sometimes people expect religious people, Catholics and Christians and Priests to be perfect because they are people of faith, this is a ridiculous presumption, no person is perfect save two, Jesus and Mary.

We must always forgive by God’s grace, there is no other option but to forgive.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[mhansen]

Allen537:

It seems to me that many priests in the church today are being delt a great injustice. We are members of a church whose central message is the forgivness of sins through Christ’s death on the cross, and the church is ever ready to forgive the sins of the faithful. But it seems to me that there are many in the church who refuse to forgive the sins of a priest who brings scandal to the church.

While he may fully receive the sacrament of pennance, for many priests, its a “one strike and you’re out” kind of situation. Many are not allowed to return active ministry.

Let’s say that a 30 year old priest is found to have had sex with a 30 year old, single woman from his parish. This is something that would not be uncommon amongst many lay people, they would just have to repent and go to confession and be absolved and they would go on about their lives.

But what about the priest? Why is he not given the same opportunity? Because of the sex abuse scandals, it is very possible that he would not be allowed to return to the active ministry, hence, he can not go on with his life. I don’t think that it is fair to go after a priest who made a mistake that many lay people themselves make.

First, let me share that I believe all sins are forgivable. That being said, what marks the difference between a priest molesting a child and a priest having sex with a 30 year old woman is that the first is a crime, and the second isn’t.

There is a difference between forgiveness, and punishment for a crime. If I were to go out and commit a felony today, I wouldn’t expect to have many job offers in the morning. The same can be said for the priest. He committed the crime, a felony, and he’s paying the secular penalties for that crime, because I simply believe nobody is above the law. Whether or not he has a “job” in the morning is up to his Bishop, and it seems that in the past, most of them have let them go back to “work”, and the situation was often repeated by the same offender. Hence, there is an unwillingness to repeat the problem endlessly by restoring every offender to his ministry. It’s a practical answer to a continuing problem.

Just like I wouldn’t give booze to an alcoholic, I wouldn’t give the opportunity to molest a child to a pedophile. If this means that he shouldn’t be allowed to return to active ministry, so be it. Protection of God’s children comes first. Shall we protect the prey or the predator?

Mike

 

[springbreeze]

mhansen:

Shall we protect the prey or the predator?

Mike

Dear friend

Your question translates better as …should we protect the sinner and those potentially/sinned against? The answer is…We protect them both.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[iserve]

Anyone who thinks the Church does otherwise is fooling themselves. There are literally hundreds of priests who were accused during these scandals. A few were tried by authorities and sentenced, a few were exonerated, but the vast majority of them admitted to their doings and, literally, disappeared. These folks were not really held liable for their deeds, and no one knows whether they are retired, defrocked, etc… Not being bound to pay for your sins is, in essense: forgiveness.

That said, not one of these folks deserves to keep the trusted position of priest if they have abused any of the faithful. Every last one of them should be out the door, as far as I can see. Forgiveness is necessary, but trust is not. Serve God some other way, but you have already shown yourself not up to the very core of the task as a priest of the Church- no passes here.

As far as the rest, after having worked in the Archdiocese of Boston for many years, I believe that a generation will pass before the pain of this whole thing will ever be distant. It goes on and on, and in the end, I believe it will prove itself to be a leadership problem.

 

[mhansen]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

Your question translates better as …should we protect the sinner and those potentially/sinned against? The answer is…We protect them both.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

My friend,

I disagree. My question does not need translation. If an adult chooses a child as his target for molestation, it truly is a prey/predator relationship. The child is unable to defend himself, hence the reason many are chosen as targets of abuse, whether it be sexual, verbal, physical. Just as a tiger often chooses the younger or weaker antelope, so does the pedophile often choose the younger, weaker child. It’s a proven fact that pedophiles often spend time “grooming” their victims. Pedophiles do not choose their targets at random, but use a sick form of “cunning” to pick those out who will offer the least resistance. In this sense, it is very much a prey/predator relationship.

Thank you, but I choose to leave my question as it stands. I don’t need anyone to edit my posts.

Mike

 

[springbreeze]

mhansen:

My friend,

I disagree. My question does not need translation. If an adult chooses a child as his target for molestation, it truly is a prey/predator relationship. The child is unable to defend himself, hence the reason many are chosen as targets of abuse, whether it be sexual, verbal, physical. Just as a tiger often chooses the younger or weaker antelope, so does the pedophile often choose the younger, weaker child. It’s a proven fact that pedophiles often spend time “grooming” their victims. Pedophiles do not choose their targets at random, but use a sick form of “cunning” to pick those out who will offer the least resistance. In this sense, it is very much a prey/predator relationship.

Thank you, but I choose to leave my question as it stands. I don’t need anyone to edit my posts.

Mike

Dear friend

Thank you for your comments.

I would discourage such language as you have used here. It tends to lead the reader to presume that someone who has sinned in such a manner of molesting a child should be hunted down and relentlessly persecuted for their sin. The question posed and the wording used is in my opinion, inflammatory to an already poor situation. As Catholics we forgive and are merciful. Period.

Any sin is premeditated, no sin happens without first a thought, then a plan and then the carrying out of the sin. Every sin committed has a victim, the one sinned against and ultimately sinning against God.

It’s all sin and it’s all evil, but we must be prudent in the way we deal with our language and allow our hearts to be led in this. It is easy to slip into the ‘holier than thou’ philosophy. No one person alive has any room to comment on another person. Indeed you may well see many of those who commit such sins in Heaven, because God forgives and is merciful whilst those who showed no mercy will not find themselves in Heaven.

It’s easy to love those who love us, but it is much harder to love those who sin against us and there is far more profit in loving those who sin against us.

But I suppose the world will not be happy unless it has it’s last drop of blood, the world cannot understand God’s ways, the world wishes to condemn, but Jesus does not condemn, He is life and forgiveness.

If every paedophile is condemned in this world then every single one of us is also condemned for every sin of our lives also and there is no mercy for any of us.

Has anyone for one moment imagined the agony those Priests have suffered and continue to suffer because of their sins. God is merciful to them, but no person is being merciful to them. Can you imagine their hardship and agony? You’re going to say ‘what about the agony of those they sinned against?’ Yes I know their agony, but I also have sympathy for the sinner too, if I am to be Christ-like, I must possess this.

If for one moment people reflected as much on their own sins as they do on those of others, then they would be merciful. Period.

As Jesus said ‘Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone.’ I put down my stone and pray for those Priests, for myself and for all of us, we are all sinners.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[mhansen]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

Thank you for your comments.

I would discourage such language as you have used here. It tends to lead the reader to presume that someone who has sinned in such a manner of molesting a child should be hunted down and relentlessly persecuted for their sin. The question posed and the wording used is in my opinion, inflammatory to an already poor situation. As Catholics we forgive and are merciful. Period.

Any sin is premeditated, no sin happens without first a thought, then a plan and then the carrying out of the sin. Every sin committed has a victim, the one sinned against and ultimately sinning against God.

It’s all sin and it’s all evil, but we must be prudent in the way we deal with our language and allow our hearts to be led in this. It is easy to slip into the ‘holier than thou’ philosophy. No one person alive has any room to comment on another person. Indeed you may well see many of those who commit such sins in Heaven, because God forgives and is merciful whilst those who showed no mercy will not find themselves in Heaven.

It’s easy to love those who love us, but it is much harder to love those who sin against us and there is far more profit in loving those who sin against us.

But I suppose the world will not be happy unless it has it’s last drop of blood, the world cannot understand God’s ways, the world wishes to condemn, but Jesus does not condemn, He is life and forgiveness.

If every paedophile is condemned in this world then every single one of us is also condemned for every sin of our lives also and there is no mercy for any of us.

Has anyone for one moment imagined the agony those Priests have suffered and continue to suffer because of their sins. God is merciful to them, but no person is being merciful to them. Can you imagine their hardship and agony? You’re going to say ‘what about the agony of those they sinned against?’ Yes I know their agony, but I also have sympathy for the sinner too, if I am to be Christ-like, I must possess this.

If for one moment people reflected as much on their own sins as they do on those of others, then they would be merciful. Period.

As Jesus said ‘Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone.’ I put down my stone and pray for those Priests, for myself and for all of us, we are all sinners.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

My friend,

If any reader presumes that I advocate “hunting down and relentlessly persecuting” a pedophile, then they are misreading my statements. I was suggesting that the pedophile engages in a sick, twisted form of hunting, where the pedophile is predator, and the child prey. If you were to do any research at all into how pedophiles operate, you would see that this is certainly a true statement. I cannot NOT post my thoughts on the matter out of fear that someone will misread my statements. No matter how careful I am in wording, someone will always misread it, as you have made clear to me.

Make no mistake about it: I am a sinner in every way, shape, and form. I do not engage in the same sins as the pedophile, but I am confident I sin equally in the eyes of God.

I’ve noticed from previous posts that you are very good at getting out of my posts what you want to. Now you state that somehow I claim I am “better” or less of a sinner than the pedophile. As I have done in previous posts with you, I must trumpet my position: I AM NO BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE!

Are we clear on that now?

As I said before, we have to err on the side of caution when we are dealing with criminals. Child molestation is a crime. I do not doubt their sin(s) will be forgiven, but I do doubt the viability of their ministry if they see the children around them as targets, and, as we have seen the repetition of the same act by many of the same individuals, it seems that this concern is warranted. Would you walk, unsupervised, through a maximum security prison filled with rapists, murderers, and would-be murderers? Would you spend a few nights with Charles Manson? Of course not. In the same way, I propose we do not allow child molesters the opportunity to molest again.

This is an issue of crime and punishment, not of sin and forgiveness. In my eyes, their forgiveness is assured. I cannot say the same for their resolve to never commit this crime again.

Mike

 

[springbreeze]

Dear friend

Thank you for responding.

I think personally, the Priest abuse situation has been debated to death. This thread was not about that, but again it has been brought up. Personally I feel harping on and on about it has done no good for the Church and no good for Catholics.

I don’t go looking for your posts nor do I ‘read’ things in or out of them. Everyone knows what paedophiles do, I can most certainly say few people in this current climate are ignorant of it.

I am sorry I implied you thought you were better, that is not what I intended and you have taken this personally, however it cannot be denied that people look on and condemn outright people who commit alsorts of sins without any mercy and THIS was my point, that we as Catholics cannot do that and we must be merciful and forgive.

The law of the land is the law of the land and we are all subject to it. Not every paedophile is prosecuted, sometimes people are merciful in these ways also. But of those that are prosecuted and brought to civil justice we must still as Catholics be merciful.

Of course I would protect myself and my child from any danger or situation where we may be sinned against. I also expect that those who commit sins should be protected also. If to protect them means they are removed from office then that is the better course of action, but if it means that their identity is protected and they are in some way, concealed, then that is necessary also because people tend to go crazy over this sort of thing and mercilessly pursue sinners who harm children. There was a case in the Uk where a ‘paedictrician’ was attacked because the attacker didn’t understand the word and thought it meant ‘paedophile’!

I mean no bad feeling toward you Mike, what sort of Catholic would I be to pursue and provoke argument with you? I am little offended you say what you have said.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Grace_and_Glory]

Allen537:

It seems to me that many priests in the church today are being delt a great injustice. We are members of a church whose central message is the forgivness of sins through Christ’s death on the cross, and the church is ever ready to forgive the sins of the faithful. But it seems to me that there are many in the church who refuse to forgive the sins of a priest who brings scandal to the church.

While he may fully receive the sacrament of penance, for many priests, its a “one strike and you’re out” kind of situation. Many are not allowed to return active ministry.

Let’s say that a 30 year old priest is found to have had sex with a 30 year old, single woman from his parish. This is something that would not be uncommon amongst many lay people, they would just have to repent and go to confession and be absolved and they would go on about their lives.

But what about the priest? Why is he not given the same opportunity?

Addressing just this hypothetical situation, and not the sex abuse scandal, I would have to say that I both agree and disagree with you. On the one hand, you’re right that a priest who sinned in this way would probably face a much harsher penalty than a lay person. On the other hand, “to whom much is given, much will be required.” Yes, I understand that priests are human, and I don’t expect my priests to be perfect. On the other hand, the priest is supposed to lead the faithful, to be an example. Because of this role, the priest must live up to a higher standard than a lay person. I would expect a lay CCD teacher to have an outwardly holy life, and I would expect that the lay CCD teacher who committed a public sin would end up no longer teaching CCD, at least not for a while, because of his or her position as a model and teacher for others.
I understand that priests aren’t perfect. I don’t expect them to never get angry, to never say anything hurtful, to never get frustrated, to never indulge in self-pity, to never be proud or lustful. On the other hand, I do expect them to realize that they have a great responsibility to the faithful, and part of this responsibility is making every effort to live a life that points the faithful to Christ instead of causing scandal.

 

[mhansen]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

Thank you for responding.

I think personally, the Priest abuse situation has been debated to death. This thread was not about that, but again it has been brought up. Personally I feel harping on and on about it has done no good for the Church and no good for Catholics.

I don’t go looking for your posts nor do I ‘read’ things in or out of them. Everyone knows what paedophiles do, I can most certainly say few people in this current climate are ignorant of it.

I am sorry I implied you thought you were better, that is not what I intended and you have taken this personally, however it cannot be denied that people look on and condemn outright people who commit alsorts of sins without any mercy and THIS was my point, that we as Catholics cannot do that and we must be merciful and forgive.

The law of the land is the law of the land and we are all subject to it. Not every paedophile is prosecuted, sometimes people are merciful in these ways also. But of those that are prosecuted and brought to civil justice we must still as Catholics be merciful.

Of course I would protect myself and my child from any danger or situation where we may be sinned against. I also expect that those who commit sins should be protected also. If to protect them means they are removed from office then that is the better course of action, but if it means that their identity is protected and they are in some way, concealed, then that is necessary also because people tend to go crazy over this sort of thing and mercilessly pursue sinners who harm children. There was a case in the Uk where a ‘paedictrician’ was attacked because the attacker didn’t understand the word and thought it meant ‘paedophile’!

I mean no bad feeling toward you Mike, what sort of Catholic would I be to pursue and provoke argument with you? I am little offended you say what you have said.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

I agree with all of this.

If I have offended you in any way, please forgive me. That is not my intention. I value your contributions to our discussions, and your views often make me contemplate an alternative possibility, and this is the making of a great discussion. Your love for God and others is apparent in all of your posts. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

God Bless,
Mike

 

[mumto5]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

There is no exception to any sin that we should forgive. God forgives all sins that are repented of and confessed and so should we. I read in one post that a poster felt the sin of molesting children was unforgiveable. That is their choice to feel that but it is certainly not Catholic teaching. We must forgive ALL sins.

Any sin a Priest commits should be forgiven in the same manner as a layperson is forgiven and no person should be marked out for different treatment.

Sorry, but to me, as a mother of five children, forgiving this sin means putting my children in danger. As far as I’m concerned, no matter how much they have repented, a child molester can keep out of my environment. They can go anywhere but where my children are. Yes, that’s treating them differently, but I feel this is justified.

I don’t think forgiving is really an issue for me as there is nothing for me to forgive. That’s between the person and God. I’m all about protecting my children - even if that means I have to be somewhat unforgiving in my actions.

Wouldn’t it be a greater sin to ‘forgive’ the perpetrator and not treat them differently if it ended in my own children getting molested by this person? That would surely be a grave sin on my part.

As for other sexual sins that don’t involve minors or force - I’m not going to bat an eyelid. It’s none of my business.

 

[m134e5]

CatholicCid:

If one gives a donation, they usually lose claim to what it goes for right? And what they can do with say, property they buy with such donations…

The bishops and priests don’t create money out of thin air- we go out and work, and give what we earn to them. That money goes for the purchase and upkeep of the churches. We pay for the churches- not the bishops, not the priests- us- the laity- that’s pure logic. To sell what we have paid for- what we have looked after (often without pay ourselves) without our consent is wrong- plain and simple.