An Intelligent Designer?

[Starcrash]

Whether or not you believe in evolution, to believe in a God is to believe that someone either created humans from scratch or guided their evolution. But there are good reasons to believe that chance circumstance is the major factor in human evolution, as the “God-led” circumstances of our physical bodies may prevent us from following scripture.

For instance, I’m pretty the Catholic church is against gay sex. Women have different roles than men in the church and in the home. It doesn’t matter what your personal views are on these ideas - the important point here is that it matters what your sex is. To follow the bible properly, you have to know whether you are male or female. So why are there hermaphrodites? Or people with male chromosomes that have female genitalia (and vice versa)?

It’s rather important to read the bible, but is inaccessible to those who are illiterate or without a copy of the bible (remember, we live in a modern age - for thousands of years there was no printing press). We are to grow spiritually, which is made impossible with amnesia. We have to confess our sins, which is pretty difficult for someone who has a severe mental handicap or is mute.

While these things may not pertain to the average person, they do fit some of our fellow humans. If God wanted obedience so badly, he put an awful lot of stumbling blocks in the way - some of them insurmountable. Are these the acts of a creator? To look for the evidence of a species created solely by evolution and not a God who is against abortion, one needs to look no further than miscarriage (and how common such a God-managed abortion is). Why would an intelligent designer mess up so badly? And why would anyone consider an intelligent agent as a more likely explanation than chance?

 

[edward_george]

What you’ve done here is a kind of shotgun approach where you blast away with questions. If you really want to get good answers to these questions, I would suggest posting them in individual threads. Otherwise, you’ve just thrown out entirely too much to be thoughtfully and reasonably tackled in one post, which leads me to wonder if you really do want your questions answered, or if you’re trying to bait.

-ACEGC

 

[Nimzovik]

What you’ve done here is a kind of shotgun approach where you blast away with questions. If you really want to get good answers to these questions, I would suggest posting them in individual threads. Otherwise, you’ve just thrown out entirely too much to be thoughtfully and reasonably tackled in one post, which leads me to wonder if you really do want your questions answered, or if you’re trying to bait.

-ACEGC

Concurrence. That is how I see the post.

 

[Della]

I would only add that your statements are filled with inaccuracies, misconceptions and assumptions. Unless and until you are willing to admit you may have the wrong end of the stick on these things, there is no explanation that will help you.

 

[Birdpreacher]

Idk Joan of Arc kinda blew up any notions of gender roles

 

[Tietjen]

Whether or not you believe in evolution, to believe in a God is to believe that someone either created humans from scratch or guided their evolution. But there are good reasons to believe that chance circumstance is the major factor in human evolution, as the “God-led” circumstances of our physical bodies may prevent us from following scripture.

I like astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle’s comparison of intelligent design vs. chance best:
"Sir Fred Hoyle:

A junkyard contains all the bits and pieces of a Boeing 747, dismembered and in disarray. A whirlwind happens to blow through the yard. What is the chance that after its passage a fully assembled 747, ready to fly, will be found standing there? So small as to be negligible, even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole Universe.

In other words, “chance” isn’t a player in the creation game. Only an intelligent Designer with a very detailed plan and purpose could have accomplished such a thing.

For instance, I’m pretty the Catholic church is against gay sex. Women have different roles than men in the church and in the home. It doesn’t matter what your personal views are on these ideas - the important point here is that it matters what your sex is. To follow the bible properly, you have to know whether you are male or female. So why are there hermaphrodites? Or people with male chromosomes that have female genitalia (and vice versa)?

Because no where in Scripture does God say that men will not have crosses to bear. Some crosses are more burdensome than others, but we all have them.

It’s rather important to read the bible, but is inaccessible to those who are illiterate or without a copy of the bible (remember, we live in a modern age - for thousands of years there was no printing press). We are to grow spiritually, which is made impossible with amnesia. We have to confess our sins, which is pretty difficult for someone who has a severe mental handicap or is mute.

And yet, there are people who are mute that do go to Confession. Luke 12:47-48 may help you to understand that God doesn’t demand the impossible from those who cannot supply it.

While these things may not pertain to the average person, they do fit some of our fellow humans. If God wanted obedience so badly, he put an awful lot of stumbling blocks in the way - some of them insurmountable. Are these the acts of a creator? To look for the evidence of a species created solely by evolution and not a God who is against abortion, one needs to look no further than miscarriage (and how common such a God-managed abortion is). Why would an intelligent designer mess up so badly? And why would anyone consider an intelligent agent as a more likely explanation than chance?

Reading your post it becomes evident that your decision to embrace “chance” over a Creator is based solely on the fact that there are differences between individuals. While it is certainly true to say that some people have it harder than others, that some are born with abnormalities while others are not, that some suffer from handicaps and others do not it escapes me completely how that proves that chance rather than God is responsible for creation. I think rather that it proves that God loves variety.

God bless.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Whether or not you believe in evolution, to believe in a God is to believe that someone either created humans from scratch or guided their evolution. But there are good reasons to believe that chance circumstance is the major factor in human evolution, as the “God-led” circumstances of our physical bodies may prevent us from following scripture.

For instance, I’m pretty the Catholic church is against gay sex. Women have different roles than men in the church and in the home. It doesn’t matter what your personal views are on these ideas - the important point here is that it matters what your sex is. To follow the bible properly, you have to know whether you are male or female. So why are there hermaphrodites? Or people with male chromosomes that have female genitalia (and vice versa)?

It’s rather important to read the bible, but is inaccessible to those who are illiterate or without a copy of the bible (remember, we live in a modern age - for thousands of years there was no printing press). We are to grow spiritually, which is made impossible with amnesia. We have to confess our sins, which is pretty difficult for someone who has a severe mental handicap or is mute.

While these things may not pertain to the average person, they do fit some of our fellow humans. If God wanted obedience so badly, he put an awful lot of stumbling blocks in the way - some of them insurmountable. Are these the acts of a creator? To look for the evidence of a species created solely by evolution and not a God who is against abortion, one needs to look no further than miscarriage (and how common such a God-managed abortion is). Why would an intelligent designer mess up so badly? And why would anyone consider an intelligent agent as a more likely explanation than chance?

We aren’t a religion of a book, we are the religion of the Word made flesh and Sacred Scripture is a byproduct of the Church being profitable for teaching, but not a necessity for salvation. Also, Sacred Scripture’s purpose is for liturgical use at Mass and was not meant for personal observation to conduct private interpretations. We read it to know it better and to grow closer in our ways with God, but only with the lens of the Church. At the end of the day, it was meant to be spoken to an audience. Observe these verses,

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 8:27-31[/BIBLEDRB]

As far as evolution, it is a textbook example of Thomistic Teleology, not W. L. Craig’s version. I’d do a write up for you, but a short video might do a better job,

youtube.com/watch?v=v0iq5kR81MM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Whether or not you believe in evolution, to believe in a God is to believe that someone either created humans from scratch or guided their evolution.

This is not true. We can believe in unguided evolution and God at the same time. We must believe, though, that the soul was created by God and at some point given to man.

 

[sw85]

Whether or not you believe in evolution, to believe in a God is to believe that someone either created humans from scratch or guided their evolution. But there are good reasons to believe that chance circumstance is the major factor in human evolution, as the “God-led” circumstances of our physical bodies may prevent us from following scripture.

For instance, I’m pretty the Catholic church is against gay sex. Women have different roles than men in the church and in the home. It doesn’t matter what your personal views are on these ideas - the important point here is that it matters what your sex is. To follow the bible properly, you have to know whether you are male or female. So why are there hermaphrodites? Or people with male chromosomes that have female genitalia (and vice versa)?

It’s rather important to read the bible, but is inaccessible to those who are illiterate or without a copy of the bible (remember, we live in a modern age - for thousands of years there was no printing press). We are to grow spiritually, which is made impossible with amnesia. We have to confess our sins, which is pretty difficult for someone who has a severe mental handicap or is mute.

While these things may not pertain to the average person, they do fit some of our fellow humans. If God wanted obedience so badly, he put an awful lot of stumbling blocks in the way - some of them insurmountable. Are these the acts of a creator? To look for the evidence of a species created solely by evolution and not a God who is against abortion, one needs to look no further than miscarriage (and how common such a God-managed abortion is). Why would an intelligent designer mess up so badly? And why would anyone consider an intelligent agent as a more likely explanation than chance?

Are you SERIOUSLY of the opinion that no thought has been given to these issues?

 

[bmullins]

Believing in non creator guided evolution is like believing a tornado can go through a junk yard, and put together a fully assembled, working car. It just doesn’t make sense.

The rest of your post is nothing more than a misunderstanding of the Catholic faith entirely. What you see as stumbling blocks, we don’t see as a block at all. We see God’s grace being more than enough to cover those people and keep them from any sort of sin. We don’t believe he’s going to send someone to hell for not reading the book, we do believe that he writes the Word of God on their hearts. People will not be judged unjustly.

To whom much is given, much is expected. To whom little is given, little is expected.

It is those who have been given much, and have the opportunity to learn and refuse to see God’s love that must quiver in fear… not the handicapped who cannot hear or the person who never sees a bible.

 

[LittleSoldier]

You might want to know that evolution is a banned topic in this forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=410885

I’d love to respond to a couple of posts but I don’t want an infraction.

 

[Starcrash]

You might want to know that evolution is a banned topic in this forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=410885

I’d love to respond to a couple of posts but I don’t want an infraction.

You’re right. A forum master can feel free to close this one down. The responses are filled with self-defensive drivel with rarely a thought about the illogic behind such a belief. Have any of you ever tried to convert a Muslim by pointing out inconsistencies in their obviously non-deity-inspired Q’uran? I have. You get the same responses. So few people possess the ability of self-evaluation - even on New Year’s Eve. I’m done trying to convince people who couldn’t change for the better if they wanted to. It’s such a waste of my valuable time.

 

[Mintaka]

The basic question doesn’t seem to be about evolution, but rather, about the existence of birth defects like hermaphroditism. In which case, the poster is really asking why God permits the existence of sickness, disease, injuries, and other imperfections of the body.
(Whether or not the poster realizes it, that is.) And I’m sure the poster will be aware that Christians and Jews believe that sickness and death, and all other imperfections, are the result of the envy of the devil and the choices of our first parents; they are not of God’s doing. As Jesus said, “In the beginning, it was not so.”

Moving along to your moral questions, the difficulties faced by a hermaphrodite are no different in kind than those faced by someone born with a crippling disease. Such things can have a grave effect on what one can physically do; and some of the things that one could do physically, might not be appropriate morally.

But then, this is also true of people with entirely healthy bodies. There are plenty of things that I could do, but which I must not do. Whether or not it’s about my sex life or property rights or poisoning my neighbor’s Wheaties, either I’m going to have to stay inside moral strictures, or I’m going to do whatever I feel like without regard for my own good or anybody else’s.

So if I were born a hermaphrodite, no doubt certain areas of my life would be constrained by circumstances. But that would scarcely make my life meaningless, or any less of a
sacred gift from God. Having more of a cross to bear would give me more opportunity for holiness.

 

[Della]

You’re right. A forum master can feel free to close this one down. The responses are filled with self-defensive drivel with rarely a thought about the illogic behind such a belief. Have any of you ever tried to convert a Muslim by pointing out inconsistencies in their obviously non-deity-inspired Q’uran? I have. You get the same responses. So few people possess the ability of self-evaluation - even on New Year’s Eve. I’m done trying to convince people who couldn’t change for the better if they wanted to. It’s such a waste of my valuable time.

Change for the better? And who is to determine what is change for the better? Even your atheism might be a change for the better for you if, as a believer, would have been a self-satisfied person who constantly judged his neighbor. If, however, being an atheist has made you into a self-satisified person who thinks he has the right to judge his neighbor then I can see no improment at all.

 

[LittleSoldier]

You’re right. A forum master can feel free to close this one down. The responses are filled with self-defensive drivel with rarely a thought about the illogic behind such a belief. Have any of you ever tried to convert a Muslim by pointing out inconsistencies in their obviously non-deity-inspired Q’uran? I have. You get the same responses. So few people possess the ability of self-evaluation - even on New Year’s Eve. I’m done trying to convince people who couldn’t change for the better if they wanted to. It’s such a waste of my valuable time.

The thread cannot be closed by a forum master. It can be closed by a moderator (well, Karl Keating could probably close it, too). A forum master is, if I am not mistaken, a member with a very large number of posts - that’s all.

 

[1ke]

Whether or not you believe in evolution, to believe in a God is to believe that someone either created humans from scratch or guided their evolution. But there are good reasons to believe that chance circumstance is the major factor in human evolution, as the “God-led” circumstances of our physical bodies may prevent us from following scripture.

Please note that both Atheism and Evolution are banned topics on this forum.

Please also note that Forum Rules require one topic per thread. You have a one to many relationship here, not one to one. I suggest you post separate questions on individual threads.

So why are there hermaphrodites? Or people with male chromosomes that have female genitalia (and vice versa)?

Original Sin brought disorder to the world. These conditions exist for the same reason as all disease and defect in the physical world. Sin.

It’s rather important to read the bible, but is inaccessible to those who are illiterate or without a copy of the bible (remember, we live in a modern age - for thousands of years there was no printing press).

Take that argument up with Protestants who subscribe to Sola Scriptura. The Catholic Church does not subscribe to that theological heresy. The Church, not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of Truth. One can receive the Gospel and know the Truth without being able to read. The Church passes on the Tradition of the Church both orally and in written form. The Church existed before the Bible.

We are to grow spiritually, which is made impossible with amnesia.

That doesn’t even make sense.

We have to confess our sins, which is pretty difficult for someone who has a severe mental handicap or is mute.

A person with a mental handicap is the same, morally, as a child under the age of reason.

A person with a disability can confess via an interpreter, including one who signs.

While these things may not pertain to the average person, they do fit some of our fellow humans. If God wanted obedience so badly, he put an awful lot of stumbling blocks in the way - some of them insurmountable.

I don’t see anything “insurmountable”. I see some really weak arguments that are compounded by a complete lack of understanding of Chrsitianity.

Are these the acts of a creator? To look for the evidence of a species created solely by evolution and not a God who is against abortion, one needs to look no further than miscarriage (and how common such a God-managed abortion is). Why would an intelligent designer mess up so badly? And why would anyone consider an intelligent agent as a more likely explanation than chance?

Banned topic.

 

[LittleSoldier]

This thread has been reported to the moderator because it discusses two banned topics.

 

[buffalo]

Move it to the back fence.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads
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