An interesting approach to the Book of Mormon

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We have had several Popes who I am sure lost favor with God. But none of them spoke ex cathedra, bringing error into Catholic doctrine. It is the office of the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome, when speaking from the official “chair of Peter” that is protected from error.
This brings up the question from another thread of how Jesus can have a double standard, He can tell people in his own time to respect the authority of the Pharisees, even as they conspire for his death. He can assure people in the 19th Century that the authority will never be taken away, to the point that officials will die before they will apostasize. But despte the fact that he told Peter the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church Peter woukld organize, its leaders would become to corrupt for God to recognize their authority.

In simpler terms: If the principal that the authority is valid even if those holding it are corrupt apllies in one time, the same principal has to apply in another times, or Jesus has a double standard.
 
Okay, I’ll bite.

You either believe that He saw God or you don’t.

If you can accept the fact that he saw God, then you accept the fact that God gave him instructions.

If you accept that God gave him instructions, then there is NO REASON for you to think that this is a one and only one time event.

So, Joseph Smith was given the first instruction. He wrote it as he understood it. The instruction was - Do not join any church for “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”.

That was IT… he was 15. And for years after he told that account he suffered persecution. There was NO MENTION of the Book of Mormon at all. This account was gathered and compiled into the Book of Commandments.

When he was about 18, he again received a vision, this time from a heavenly messenger named Moroni with a new instruction to retrieve the plates from which the fullness of the gospel was contained. Remember, there was never a mention of this on his visit from God when he was 15.

From the time he was 18 all the way to he was 24, his sole instruction was to retrieve the plates and translate it.

Again, he wrote this account. So, how is this now acceptable when his first account was only that he should not join any other church? And why would he think that he had more instruction after this one? This account was also gathered and compiled into the Book of Commandments.

When he was 24, he received further instruction from another heavenly messenger - he was conferred the Aaronic Priesthood Authority and was asked to baptize Oliver Cowdery. This account was also gathered and compiled into the Book of Commandments…

And on and on is the progression as he received more and more instructions all of which are gathered and compiled into the Book of Commandments and now officially compiled in the Doctrine and Covenants.

As he learned more, his understanding grew, sometimes having to go back and clarify a previous account.

Line upon line, precept upon precept. The exact same way everybody in Church History from the time of Adam has always learned… all of which are in the Holy Bible. And if one should apply this type of splitting hairs in the manner of truth devoid of context, then yes, you will find a gazillion contradictory instructions in the Bible itself.
I cannot believe that Joseph Smith saw God because the description of his encounter with God is inconsistent with the description of God in the book he called “the most correct of all books” – the Book of Mormon. The two descriptions of the nature of God are diametrically opposed.
 
And your reason doesn’t hold water.

Look, Simon (Peter), denied Christ 3 times. No, not once. THREE TIMES. So, If I go by your way of reasoning… that’s the end of Peter. He’s a liar.

But. We both know it is not. Because, that’s not the end of the story.

And so it is with Joseph Smith.
You claiming something doesn’t make it so, the same with Joseph Smith. You reasoning that if one man lies another can not, is false. Many men can lie at the same time, so just because one man lies doesn’t mean that Joseph Smith did not lie. You could list hundreds of liars and it would have no barring on the status of Joseph Smith being a liar. So far it does “hold water.”
 
I cannot believe that Joseph Smith saw God because the description of his encounter with God is inconsistent with the description of God in the book he called “the most correct of all books” – the Book of Mormon. The two descriptions of the nature of God are diametrically opposed.
So reason would tell us the Joseph Smith lied about this.
 
So reason would tell us the Joseph Smith lied about this.
“Lied” would mean that he did not believe his own account. I am not sure suffucent evidence exists to establish that he so perceived. However, when one reads the Book of Mormon integrally – without reference to outside sources – it is clear that the nature of God as described in the Book of Mormon contradicts the account of his First Vision. However since the LDS Church considers his vision more concrete than what he called “the most correct book” that account is used to interpret the descriptions in the book. This becomes circular reasoning when the existence of the book is offered as evidence of the vision.
 
“Lied” would mean that he did not believe his own account. I am not sure suffucent evidence exists to establish that he so perceived. However, when one reads the Book of Mormon integrally – without reference to outside sources – it is clear that the nature of God as described in the Book of Mormon contradicts the account of his First Vision. However since the LDS Church considers his vision more concrete than what he called “the most correct book” that account is used to interpret the descriptions in the book. This becomes circular reasoning when the existence of the book is offered as evidence of the vision.
You mean the conflict is between the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, not two things Smith said?
 
You mean the conflict is between the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, not two things Smith said?
I am not sure there is a difference.

Perhaps I should elaborate further. I do not believe that Smith “lied” because that would mean he did not believe his own claims, and I think he most likely believed his claims about the whole thing. I further believe that what has come to be called “the golden plates” existed, but even those witnesses who saw them cannot attest to their origin, or that they were actually made of literal gold. The accounts say “the appearance of gold”. Whatever source they came from, I am fairly certain that he believed the story he told about their origin. That does not mean the account was literally accurate – just that he so perceived.

VALIDITY OF TRANSLATION-to avoid certain arguments later:
They can also not attest that whatever marks were on the plates they handled meant anything at all, much less if they meant what Smith claims to have translated. There is a story of a copy of some characters from the plates being taken to an expert in Egytian languages who attested that this was a valid translation – but part of that story is that the this professor could not have known. Deciphering the Rosetta Stone had only begun during the 1820s, so much of ancient Egytian was unknown into the 1830s.

The story, while sometimes used by older LDS apologists to argue Smith’s translation skills, is inaapropriately used that way. Modern apologists recognize that Smith’s claim of it being in “reformed” Egyptian means, within the context of the book itself, that Egyptian characters would have been used to phonetically indicate Hebrew words, so even within that context had any Egytologist been able to translate the notes Martin Harris carried, they would not have been accurate in Egytptian.

REPUTED CONTENTS OF THE PLATES
Regarding the contents of the Book of Mormon comapred to the plates, Smtih claimed that the title page affirming that the book contains “the fulness of the gospel” and exists to convince “jew and gentile” that Jesus is the Christ, was part of the plates. Smith later personally declared that the “Book of Mormon was the most correct of all books”.

The contents of the book, which the book itself claims to be the fulness of the gospel, and which Smith claims “most correct of all books” presents a God consistent with a Trinitarian view. It makes a clear statement of Incarnation theology, of Jesus as the very Eternal Father and the Son simultaneously, the Father as the Creator, and the Son because of taking on Flesh – but one and the same. The strongest account of someone seeing God specifies that the individual was not seeing a physical body, but a representation of the form God would take on coming to Earth.

However, most readers hear Joseph Smith’s account of his first vision, in which he claimed to see God the father and the Son as two distinct physical beings. This is used in itnerpretation of the actual words of the Book of Mormon, though nothing within the book itself justifies that interpretation. However, when asked how to know if Joseph Smith’s account is true, investigators are instructed to read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, and get a personal witness that it is true – which the Book promises they will get.

NATURE OF THE ARGUMENT
This personal witness is then taken as evidence that Smith’s account of his first vision is true, because the book is evidence that he was a prophet. Having so established that Smith was telling the truth, his vision – not the contents of the Book – is presented as the most complete revelation of the nature of God. This is then used to interpret the Trinatarian expressions in more figurative ways, despite the fact that “the most correct book” does not justify this interpretation when taken on its own.

So the argument is interlocking and self-referential, but not internally consistent. The Book of Mormon is true, so Joseph Smith must be a prophet. Since Joseph Smith is a prophet, his account of his first vision must be true. Since that is not consistent with the Book of Mormon, what seems clear needs reinterpretation based on Smith’s account. The reasoning rarely continues to, since that means the Book of Mormon means something different than it appeared to when one came to believe it, the witness on what they read must no be valid. Therefore, they cannot be certain the Book of Mormon is true, which does not support Smith being a prophet.

However, most – not all – investigators into Mormonism already know the account of the First Vision when they read the Book, which biases their interpretation when they begin reading it.

The point is, to repeat, the circular reasoning is self-referential but internally inconsistent. It is like a Mobius Strip. One side of the argument takes you to the other side and back to where you started. In the end one must choose to believe Smith’s story regardless of the evidence in literary context, or admit being mistaken about the truth of the Book.
 
NATURE OF THE ARGUMENT
This personal witness is then taken as evidence that Smith’s account of his first vision is true, because the book is evidence that he was a prophet. Having so established that Smith was telling the truth, his vision – not the contents of the Book – is presented as the most complete revelation of the nature of God. This is then used to interpret the Trinatarian expressions in more figurative ways, despite the fact that “the most correct book” does not justify this interpretation when taken on its own.

So the argument is interlocking and self-referential, but not internally consistent. The Book of Mormon is true, so Joseph Smith must be a prophet. Since Joseph Smith is a prophet, his account of his first vision must be true. Since that is not consistent with the Book of Mormon, what seems clear needs reinterpretation based on Smith’s account. The reasoning rarely continues to, since that means the Book of Mormon means something different than it appeared to when one came to believe it, the witness on what they read must no be valid. Therefore, they cannot be certain the Book of Mormon is true, which does not support Smith being a prophet.

However, most – not all – investigators into Mormonism already know the account of the First Vision when they read the Book, which biases their interpretation when they begin reading it.

The point is, to repeat, the circular reasoning is self-referential but internally inconsistent. It is like a Mobius Strip. One side of the argument takes you to the other side and back to where you started. In the end one must choose to believe Smith’s story regardless of the evidence in literary context, or admit being mistaken about the truth of the Book.
Let me know if this summary is what you are saying:

Joseph Smith claimed to see two separate physical beings; God and Christ (Pearl of Great Price : JS History verse 18)

Joseph Smith claimed the Book of Mormon to be the most correct of any book on earth. (Introduction to the Book of Mormon)
  1. If you have a witness that the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith is a prophet.
  2. If Smith is a prophet, the first vision is true
  3. If the first vision is true, God has a physical body and Christ has a physical body.
  4. If God and Christ each have physical bodies they are not one but two.
The Book of Mormon (the most correct of any book on earth) describes God as taking on flesh as Christ and are one being; basically the Christian Trinity. (Mosiah 15:1-5 for example)
  1. If the Book of Mormon disagrees with the first vision, The Book of Mormon is not true. (Vision trumps Book of Mormon)
  2. If the Book of Mormon is not true, your witness of it being true is false.
  3. If your witness is false, Joseph Smith is not a prophet.
Is this close?

How do Mormons reason that a witness to the Book of Mormon makes Joseph Smith a prophet?
 
To the general reader:

The conversation on this thread seems to be struggling with the concept that Jesus taught and conveyed so eloquently in His intimately loving, profoundly powerful Intercessory prayer, wherein He prayed that we all could be one with Him just as He is one with His Father. That Oneness seems to be a concept that is a struggle for many people to grasp–oneness of will and purpose, oneness of love and compassion, oneness of understanding and wisdom–a complete unity yet being separate persons.

Another struggle seems to be understanding that Jesus Christ becomes a spiritual father to those who are born again and who place themselves, by their free will choice, into His ongoing shepherding influence so that they become completely changed by Him through His teaching and the power and impact of His atoning grace becoming operative in their lives.

It is totally appropriate to describe Jesus as “Father” in that He is the father of our salvation and redemption, the father of the creation of this earth and the heavens by virtue of the power and delegation of authority and purpose He received from His Father to be the Creator, and the father of those who become spiritually “begotten sons and daughters unto God.” The Book of Mormon teaches these aspects of the fatherhood of Christ for those who become His disciples in several wonderful, uplifting teachings that can enliven the life of someone who reads by their getting the power of the Holy Ghost into their hearts and lives, if they read with a sincere heart and with faith in His redeeming grace and enduring love.
 
To the general reader:

The conversation on this thread seems to be struggling with the concept that Jesus taught and conveyed so eloquently in His intimately loving, profoundly powerful Intercessory prayer, wherein He prayed that we all could be one with Him just as He is one with His Father. That Oneness seems to be a concept that is a struggle for many people to grasp–oneness of will and purpose, oneness of love and compassion, oneness of understanding and wisdom–a complete unity yet being separate persons.
Someone that has been married as long as I have easily understands oneness of purpose, love, wisdom, understanding, blah, blah, blah. What we seem to be struggling with is how the triune God of the Bible, Christianity, and the Book of Mormon could conflict with Joseph Smith’s first vision if the vision actually happened.

How do Mormons reason that a witness to the Book of Mormon makes Joseph Smith a prophet?
 
Someone that has been married as long as I have easily understands oneness of purpose, love, wisdom, understanding, blah, blah, blah. What we seem to be struggling with is how the triune God of the Bible, Christianity, and the Book of Mormon could conflict with Joseph Smith’s first vision if the vision actually happened.

How do Mormons reason that a witness to the Book of Mormon makes Joseph Smith a prophet?
I have certainly seen the “blah, blah, blah” part in many comments which seem to show that there is a deep misunderstanding, leading to the very comment about the “triune God of the …Book of Mormon”–which is not a true statement. The words may convey what a person who is taught the idea of the “triune God” is looking for, but when joined with the meaning of Christ’s intercessory prayer and meaning of the One Savior of the Old Testament who was Jehovah then and is still Jehovah, the Messiah, the promised Christ, the Anointed One, then the knowledge that is available is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are indeed three Separate Persons whose Oneness is not “blah, blah, blah.” It is true Unity.

Mormons who gain a witness that the Book of Mormon is true, have gained that witness through the power of the Holy Ghost and through having learned to be sincere in their prayers and in their search for knowledge from God, with no hidden agendas or ulterior motives. They learn by the witness from the Holy Ghost, and thus understand the concept of personal revelation.

Until a person understands that concept deep within their soul and with all their heart, they probably rely on “reason” as their guide to religious knowledge. A person can certainly “reason” away a belief that the Book of Mormon is the word of God given to both prophets who lived in the Americas and to us in our day through having been prepared for our day for us to have as true teachings, but if they gain that personal witness through the power of the Holy Ghost that is the kind of witness spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2, then “reason” stands with “personal witness” as the more sure anchor to their faith and ability to keep their covenants. Along with “reason” and “personal witness” comes “blessings from living by the teachings” just as the Savior promised “if any man shall do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God”.

With personal revelation an active component of a person’s life, then one who has gained a witness of the Book of Mormon and its teachings and is living by them, can know by personal revelation that Joseph Smith did indeed translate the Book of Mormon from the ancient record given to the world for the express purpose that we would have it in our day, and can know by personal revelation that Joseph Smith saw God the Eternal Father as a Personal Being, and saw His Son Jesus Christ at His right hand, as the resurrected Savior and Redeemer of the world. Without personal revelation and without sincere intent, either the Book of Mormon or the vision Joseph Smith testified about can be “reasoned away”.

This is fully within the purposes of God–that free will choice not be hampered or minimized by the kind of “gotta believe it” reasoning that appeals to the mind of man working on his own.
 
jsfellowship.com/

This person says that Joseph Smith was only called to translate the Book of Mormon and nothing more based on Book of Commandments:
And you have a gift to translate the plates; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift for I will grant unto you no other gift. (Book of Commandments IV:2)
It does seem as if we have strayed greatly from my original comment. Joseph Smith was told he would receive no other gift other than translating the Book of Mormon. That was God supposedly talking to Joseph Smith. Then God’s words were changed by Joseph a few years later to correspond to what Joseph claimed was a new gift. It seems Joseph’s God was a God of convenience. Of course Joseph’s God changed many of the words in the Book of Commandments when Joseph worked with Sidney Rigdon to come up with the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph’s God is pretty untrustworthy in my opinion. Of course Joseph lied about plural marriage as well. There is certainly one thing we can conclude about Joseph Smith – he didn’t have any trouble lying in public. Joseph either received the words of God as recorded in the Book of Commandments or he didn’t. Since he had no problem just changing the words regarding his gift it seems to me that God never spoke to Joseph in the first place no matter how many Mormons claim the Holy Ghost told them Joseph did. Their Holy Ghost seems pretty unreliable if we assume the Holy Ghost told Joseph what to write.
 
It does seem as if we have strayed greatly from my original comment. Joseph Smith was told he would receive no other gift other than translating the Book of Mormon. That was God supposedly talking to Joseph Smith. Then God’s words were changed by Joseph a few years later to correspond to what Joseph claimed was a new gift. It seems Joseph’s God was a God of convenience. Of course Joseph’s God changed many of the words in the Book of Commandments when Joseph worked with Sidney Rigdon to come up with the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph’s God is pretty untrustworthy in my opinion. Of course Joseph lied about plural marriage as well. There is certainly one thing we can conclude about Joseph Smith – he didn’t have any trouble lying in public. Joseph either received the words of God as recorded in the Book of Commandments or he didn’t. Since he had no problem just changing the words regarding his gift it seems to me that God never spoke to Joseph in the first place no matter how many Mormons claim the Holy Ghost told them Joseph did. Their Holy Ghost seems pretty unreliable if we assume the Holy Ghost told Joseph what to write.
BartBurk,

Below are links to two Ensign articles from December 1984 and January 1985 that answer the kinds of allegation you and others have made about the Book of Commandments as compared with the Doctrine and Covenants:

First one:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20december%201984%20.htm/the%20story%20of%20the%20doctrine%20and%20covenants.htm?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=$x=$nc=8554

Second one:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1985.htm/ensign%20january%201985%20.htm/how%20the%20revelations%20in%20the%20doctrine%20and%20covenants%20were%20received%20and%20compiled.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

Those articles are far more in-depth than probably most people reading on this forum would have the patience to read thoroughly, but they describe the process of arriving at the present-day Doctrine and Covenants as compared with earlier printed versions of the revelations given to Joseph Smith.

Your words “God of convenience” reflect the usual kind of doubt about how God interacts with human beings, including prophets as well as those closest to prophets or those compiling their teachings or the communications from God they received. Isaiah wrote about the real nature of how God communicates with humankind, and described a process that is “precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little” (Isaiah 28:13)

Isaiah also asked two questions and answered them in such a way as to enlighten those who are “ready”, as compared with those who are still needing “milk”:

“Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.” (28:9)

(Note for general readers: “drawn from the breasts” has the same meaning as “weaned” and of course is talking about a young child who is no longer a nursing baby.)

I suggest that this process of “line upon line” which means that God does not give the kind of dictation that many people automatically assume when they read the Bible–there is an interactive process, not a once-only-dictation process–is not going to be understood by those who have not experienced personal revelation in their own lives. That is why Isaiah used the term “weaned from the milk”. Isaiah was familiar with the revelatory process. He was comfortable with it. It is built into our personal relationship with God as well as a prophet’s revelatory relationship with God.

But those needing and wanting “milk” will simply not “go there” toward being “weaned from the milk” because they want a dictation kind of relationship. They don’t want to be held responsible to grow toward being ready to gain more knowledge, instruction, and new insights. So this process will not make sense to them, at all. They will scoff at the whole idea of it.

Peace to you and to all readers. The Bible gives the foundation for the knowledge that people need in order to receive whatever they are willing to bring into their own personal relationship with God. Free will choice is firmly in place as the precursor to gaining revealed knowledge from God.
 
BartBurk,

Below are links to two Ensign articles from December 1984 and January 1985 that answer the kinds of allegation you and others have made about the Book of Commandments as compared with the Doctrine and Covenants:

First one:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20december%201984%20.htm/the%20story%20of%20the%20doctrine%20and%20covenants.htm?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=$x=$nc=8554

Second one:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1985.htm/ensign%20january%201985%20.htm/how%20the%20revelations%20in%20the%20doctrine%20and%20covenants%20were%20received%20and%20compiled.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

Those articles are far more in-depth than probably most people reading on this forum would have the patience to read thoroughly, but they describe the process of arriving at the present-day Doctrine and Covenants as compared with earlier printed versions of the revelations given to Joseph Smith.

Your words “God of convenience” reflect the usual kind of doubt about how God interacts with human beings, including prophets as well as those closest to prophets or those compiling their teachings or the communications from God they received. Isaiah wrote about the real nature of how God communicates with humankind, and described a process that is “precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little” (Isaiah 28:13)

Isaiah also asked two questions and answered them in such a way as to enlighten those who are “ready”, as compared with those who are still needing “milk”:

“Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.” (28:9)

(Note for general readers: “drawn from the breasts” has the same meaning as “weaned” and of course is talking about a young child who is no longer a nursing baby.)

I suggest that this process of “line upon line” which means that God does not give the kind of dictation that many people automatically assume when they read the Bible–there is an interactive process, not a once-only-dictation process–is not going to be understood by those who have not experienced personal revelation in their own lives. That is why Isaiah used the term “weaned from the milk”. Isaiah was familiar with the revelatory process. He was comfortable with it. It is built into our personal relationship with God as well as a prophet’s revelatory relationship with God.

But those needing and wanting “milk” will simply not “go there” toward being “weaned from the milk” because they want a dictation kind of relationship. They don’t want to be held responsible to grow toward being ready to gain more knowledge, instruction, and new insights. So this process will not make sense to them, at all. They will scoff at the whole idea of it.

Peace to you and to all readers. The Bible gives the foundation for the knowledge that people need in order to receive whatever they are willing to bring into their own personal relationship with God. Free will choice is firmly in place as the precursor to gaining revealed knowledge from God.
I’m sorry Parker, but line upon line does not mean you change the wording that God originally supposedly inspired. Having read the articles it seems to me they are simply trying to excuse the changes Joseph made to his revelations, but it is hard for me to jump from “only gift” to this is the “first gift.” People like David Whitmer noticed the changes and felt something was wrong. Even though David Whitmer was a firm believer in the Book of Mormon he saw what was going on in the church regarding these changes. There is a clear history of Joseph Smith equivocating and outright lying about what was going on in the church. Whenever we show Joseph Smith’s equivocation the Mormon Church invents an excuse as it did in these two articles. I’m sure there is an excuse for him lying about polygamy or translating the Book of Abraham. The translation doesn’t work out for the Book of Abraham so all of a sudden Joseph was simply inspired in some other way and the translation isn’t literal. Just like the witnesses claiming to have seen the Book of Mormon plates with their spiritual eyes. It all becomes outright fanciful when you look at it clearly.
 
Let me know if this summary is what you are saying:


5. If the Book of Mormon disagrees with the first vision, The Book of Mormon is not true. (Vision trumps Book of Mormon)
6. If the Book of Mormon is not true, your witness of it being true is false.
7. If your witness is false, Joseph Smith is not a prophet.

Is this close?

How do Mormons reason that a witness to the Book of Mormon makes Joseph Smith a prophet?
That is pretty much it. Reader’s unfamilar with the quoted post should click on your name above to link to the whole thing.

The exception is that within the LDS framework, point 5 would be more like, “if the Book of Mormon does not agree with the First Vision, I have not understood it clearly, and must reconsider in light of other revelation.” From there believers allow the Church to tell them what to think about the Book of Mormon. Where it conflicts is with Smith’s statement that it is the most correct of all books, and the Book’s internal claim of containing the fulness of the gospel. If it is most correct and internally sufficient, it should be used to interpret other resources, instead of the other way around.

HOW LDS PERCEIVE THE BOOK AS EVIDENCE OF SMITH’S STATUS
Primarily, a personal testimony of Book of Mormon truth means God supports the Book, so God supports the source. However, many elements of presentation frame how readers interpret that witness. Missionaries often draw readers attention to the physical remarkability of the book

I do not intend what follows as an attack on Mormonism, but as complete consideration of a question usually not completely considered within an LDS perspective. I loved the Book of Mormon, and considered it my favorite book for many years.

The Book of Mormon seems physical evidence of something more at work than those men known to be involved with it. Missionaries ask people to consider if any man could have written this book. Readers focus on whether it was produced by God or by men. The third alternative, rarely receiving comment, is that it could have been inspired by the adversary directly. Those readers deciding no man could have written it decide it was written by God because the third option is not really on the table.

At one time I believed no man could have written it. My very esoteric conversion to Catholicism put the conclusion that God had inspired it contrary to very solid personal evidence contradicting it. I considered the idea that it was inspired by the Adversary. One reason for this was recognizing Catholicity filling the valid dogma in the book-- subtly hiding heresies such as preexistence of human sipirts other than Christ–the book’s main purpose seems to be leading readers away from Catholicism.

Since then, having distanced myself from the issue, I can see ways it could be a human fabrication. Could any man have written this book? If any body of men were involved, only the Jesuits or the Masons among those present in that region might have had the knowledge to do it. This makes it more significant that many early LDS members were masons, and that by now fewer than five popes have affirmed that the purpose of Freemasonry is to destroy the Church.

“COULD ANY MAN HAVE WRITTEN THIS BOOK?”
It makes ostensibly a strong argument, especially when using the figures missionaries provide investigators regarding the entire work having been completed in months. Also they point out that Smith himself had but an elementary education, without resources to many books.

In addition many of the Book’s claims of Ancient America disagreed with knowledge of Ancient America at the time. They contradicted archaeology and history of the day(things like the development of the wheel). LDS apologists affirm a fabrication would have reflected these things, not contradicted them.

Except the two arguments are inconsistent. That academic resources lacked indicates a fabrication might have little if any basis in contemporaneous understanding of the cultures involved. It means such alleged external evidences could simply prove imagination at work. By their own arguments, any fabrication had to be an uneducated fabrication, which would reflect ignorance of existing knowledge, and carry more basis in the culture of its own time.

As far as the actual contents go, it is a big book. Massive chunks are paraphrased portions of Isaiah, First Corinthians 13, and the Sermon on the Mount, just to begin with. This limits the need for creativity. Rhetoric reflects the revivalist debates Smith encountered in his own region, and intuitive conceptual devices for memorizing huge chunks of material. The accounts of war reflect wars against Tecumseh just a few years before it was written – it reflects the things that would have occupied an attentive teenage boy’s mind in that region at that time.

Another example is that the short period they claim it was written in is not accurate even according to their own account. Those figures include only the actual time Smith spent dictating to scribes. Joseph Smith calimed his first vision in 1820 and the Book of Mormon was not published until 1830. That makes 10 years he could have been formulating ideas – whether overtly imaginative or experiential delusions in this approach remains to be seen. LDS members considering this drop the idea quickly, because the Church affirms it was written in the specific length of time. Questioning equates to saying the emperor has no clothes.

Mormons also have a tremendous escalation of commitment in this that spans generations. If they are mistaken it means that thousands of ancestors of many modern Mormons lost everything they had, including their lives, out of conviction of the truth of this. It is hard for them to perceive the rich cultural values of these sufferings even if believing a misrepresented basic premise.
 
With personal revelation an active component of a person’s life, then one who has gained a witness of the Book of Mormon and its teachings and is living by them, can know by personal revelation that Joseph Smith did indeed translate the Book of Mormon from the ancient record given to the world for the express purpose that we would have it in our day, and can know by personal revelation that Joseph Smith saw God the Eternal Father as a Personal Being, and saw His Son Jesus Christ at His right hand, as the resurrected Savior and Redeemer of the world. Without personal revelation and without sincere intent, either the Book of Mormon or the vision Joseph Smith testified about can be “reasoned away”.
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So, you confirm my affirmamtions.

A person gets a personal testimony that the Book of Mormon is true, which includes 1) That it is independelntly sufficent, having the "fulness of the gospel, 2) It teaches that God’s only body is the one he would take on as Christ 3) It affirms that Jesus Christ and “the very Eternal Father” are one and the same.

A person by this knows that Joseph Smith’s account of his First Vision is true. His account contradicts points 2 and 3 above. That means that the person must reinterpret their understanding of the Book of Mormon based on Joseph Smith’s experience, contradicting point 1 above, as well as Joseph Smith’s own affirmation that it is “the most correct of all books.”

The alternative is that interpreting Joseph Smith’s account according to the self-sufficient and most perfect book means Smith’s report is not valid – but then one must explain where the Book of Mormon came from. Using Smith’s account to interpret points 2 and 3 means that point 1 is wrong, and the book is not self-sufficient, as it does not contain the fulness of the gospel. It also means that the book is not the most correct book, as modifying the plain meanings of its messages requires other books for clarification. So, what Smith’s first vision account, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Greaqt Price say are more correct, if they alter what the Book of Mormon means.

How do you know those sources are valid? Because Joseph Smith, Jr. was a Prophet. How do you know this? You got a witness of the Book of Mormon, even though Smith’s later teachings as a Prophet contradict the core Book of Mormon teachings upon which you received that witness,

This invalidates the personal witness of the Book of Mormon, as points 1, 2, and 3 are not accurate after all. It does not contain the fulness of the gospel, as outside sources are needed to understand it, and its accounts of Jesus’s body being the only body God has, and that Jesus and “the very Eternal Father” are not accurate. Given that, the reader must have either received a false witness or not understand what the witness was about. In either case that witness does not support Smith as a Prophet or the ultimate truth of the Book.

This seems awful confusing for a Book that is supposed to be “plain and precious”.

The challenges that Mormonism does not meet are first,proving without reference to outside sources that Jesus is both the “Son of God” and “the very Eternal Father” – one and the same – as outside sources mean the book does not contain the fulness of the Gospel, but that the Gospel is only fulilled in other “revelation”.

For the same reason, they need to prove without using outside sources that the Book of Mormon teaches God has a physical body aside from the Body of Christ. External sources to modify this negate the book’s self-affirmed internal completness, and invalidates the entire book.

I’m sure that any good Mormon would love the chance to search the Book that much.
 
So, you confirm my affirmations.
Peter John,

It should be obvious to any reader that I didn’t “confirm your affirmations.” I disagreed with you, and still do. At this point, such a conversation is not really a conversation–it is a soliloquy, so this is fine in this forum and I’ll just say, “peace and good-bye.”
 
Peter John,

It should be obvious to any reader that I didn’t “confirm your affirmations.” I disagreed with you, and still do. At this point, such a conversation is not really a conversation–it is a soliloquy, so this is fine in this forum and I’ll just say, “peace and good-bye.”
So does that mean you either do not consider it important to establish that the Book of Mormon account of the nature of God is consistent with Joseph Smith’s first vision, in and of itself? Or does this mean you do not think it is important if the Book of Mormon produces a witness based on misconstruals of what you consider valid doctrine within its own pages?
 
So does that mean you either do not consider it important to establish that the Book of Mormon account of the nature of God is consistent with Joseph Smith’s first vision, in and of itself? Or does this mean you do not think it is important if the Book of Mormon produces a witness based on misconstruals of what you consider valid doctrine within its own pages?
I’ve read the Book of Mormon enough and don’t believe there is anything in there which absolutely denies that God the Father might have a body. It says God is a Spirit, but I don’t think that is enough to deny that the Father might also have a body. Even the Nicene Creed really doesn’t deny that the Father might have a body – the Nicene Creed simply declares that Jesus was eternally begotten of God. While I reject the idea the Father has a body, I don’t think the idea that he does have a body would necessarily invalidate the teaching on the Trinity. Mormons deny the teaching on the Trinity when they declare that God the Father has a Father and that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods.
 
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