An interesting approach to the Book of Mormon

[ParkerD]

So are you saying there was never any choice offered over who should come as the redeemer?

…

Peter John,

I am not quite sure I understand your underlying question, so I’ll answer with a “full scope” answer.

When God the Father asked “Whom shall I send?”, and the Son of Man, His Only Begotten Son, answered, “Here am I, send me.”–then it is clear that there was a choice offered but it was not a question of “a possibility of another redeemer”, because there was only One who was qualified and prepared and capable of being the Redeemer–yet He was fully able and was asked to make a choice as to whether He would be “sent” to come to earth as our Redeemer and Savior, but we can also know by the fact that He was omniscient and omnipotent and glorious and full of love, that He would want to do both His Father’s will and what His love for us propelled Him to do–to say He would come to earth to suffer the atoning sacrifice and crucifixion that would be necessary for our redemption, and to be our Perfect example and our guide.

So His voluntary acceptance of the plan of salvation with Him in the absolutely essential role of being our Redeemer, is an astonishing act of love that happened in the pre-mortal world–astonishing for us then and astonishing as we think about it now, because of the infinite suffering it meant He was going to suffer, out of love for us and love for His Father.

His Father, who is Our Father, was also showing His love for us by sending His Only Begotten Son with the plan that would bring us back into Their presence through His Beloved Son carrying the eternal weight and paying the eternal price of the burdens and pains for the sins of humankind.

On this earth in the Garden of Gethsemane, when the Savior prayed to have the cup “pass from Him”, then we are again astonished that He was willing and still did a voluntary act to suffer the will of the Father, suffer the pains of the atoning sacrifice and the crucifixion, and not shrink or finally say it was too much for Him to do–that because of His love for us, He went ahead with that love in His heart strengthening Him as He suffered for our sins. His voluntary act is astonishing and marvelous beyond mortal comprehension, and one of infinite love for us all, including all who have ever lived or will ever live on this earth in the scope of His infinite love.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

I am not quite sure I understand your underlying question, so I’ll answer with a “full scope” answer.

When God the Father asked “Whom shall I send?”, and the Son of Man, His Only Begotten Son, answered, “Here am I, send me.”–then it is clear that there was a choice offered but it was not a question of “a possibility of another redeemer”, because there was only One who was qualified and prepared and capable of being the Redeemer–yet He was fully able and was asked to make a choice as to whether He would be “sent” to come to earth as our Redeemer and Savior, but we can also know by the fact that He was omniscient and omnipotent and glorious and full of love, that He would want to do both His Father’s will and what His love for us propelled Him to do–to say He would come to earth to suffer the atoning sacrifice and crucifixion that would be necessary for our redemption, and to be our Perfect example and our guide.

So His voluntary acceptance of the plan of salvation with Him in the absolutely essential role of being our Redeemer, is an astonishing act of love that happened in the pre-mortal world–astonishing for us then and astonishing as we think about it now, because of the infinite suffering it meant He was going to suffer, out of love for us and love for His Father.

His Father, who is Our Father, was also showing His love for us by sending His Only Begotten Son with the plan that would bring us back into Their presence through His Beloved Son carrying the eternal weight and paying the eternal price of the burdens and pains for the sins of humankind.

On this earth in the Garden of Gethsemane, when the Savior prayed to have the cup “pass from Him”, then we are again astonished that He was willing and still did a voluntary act to suffer the will of the Father, suffer the pains of the atoning sacrifice and the crucifixion, and not shrink or finally say it was too much for Him to do–that because of His love for us, He went ahead with that love in His heart strengthening Him as He suffered for our sins. His voluntary act is astonishing and marvelous beyond mortal comprehension, and one of infinite love for us all, including all who have ever lived or will ever live on this earth in the scope of His infinite love.

That answers part of the question. I refer to the choice made by pre-mortal spirits. You have not addressed that at all, yet you claim making this choice wrong resulted in the evil spirits that followed Satan.

It is not clear to me from the way you presented all of this if God the Father (whom you call Elohim) lifted Jesus (Jehovah) from being an intelligence to a spirit, or if Jehovah advanced on his own?

DId Elohim also rise from being an intelligence? If so did he advance himself, or did someone else advance him?

Did he go straight to having an immortal physical body, or did he go through the phases of being a spirit, and having a mortal body first?

If all of these concepts are wrong, can the Book of Mormon still be right (the geernal topic of this thread)?

 

[ParkerD]

That answers part of the question. I refer to the choice made by pre-mortal spirits. You have not addressed that at all, yet you claim making this choice wrong resulted in the evil spirits that followed Satan.

Peter John,

The choice made by pre-mortal spirits (referred to as angels in several verses in the Bible in translation into English) was a logical step in the process that followed the choice made by the Father’s Only Begotten Son to come to earth and be the Savior and Redeemer and Messiah. After He had said “Here am I, send me” and thus showed that His own will was perfectly in accord with His Father’s will, the other spirits in the pre-mortal world (where we all participated) also had the opportunity to make their own choice about whether to come to this earth and by so doing, accept Heavenly Father’s plan and accept that the Savior, whom we knew there, would be their (and our) Redeemer and Messiah.

The “fallen angel” spirits disagreed with Heavenly Father’s plan, and thus Jude wrote that they were the “angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation” and these “he [the Lord] hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” (Jude 6)

John wrote about that also in Revelation 12:7-9. They had made a choice to rebel and follow the “dragon”–“that old serpent, called the Devil”. The Devil led in the pre-mortal rebellion against Heavenly Father’s plan and against God’s Beloved Only Begotten Son and we all (every person who has come to this earth in mortality) agreed in that pre-mortal sphere with Heavenly Father’s plan and chose to come to this earth knowing we would need a Redeemer and Savior and Great Exemplar, the Anointed One.

It is not clear to me from the way you presented all of this if God the Father (whom you call Elohim) lifted Jesus (Jehovah) from being an intelligence to a spirit, or if Jehovah advanced on his own?

I think the scriptures point out specifically that Jesus was “the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:25), so if using the word “lifted” means for you that Jesus had been “in the bosom of the Father” and is the Father’s Only Begotten Son, then it is a way to describe that.

I think we can also surmise that Jehovah immediately “advanced” as the First Born Spirit, and was God the Son before we ever knew Him, since He was God’s Only Begotten Son while we were still in the pre-spirit state of being an “intelligence”. He was omnipotent and omniscient with God the Father at that point in eternal time when we were created into being spirits. We knew Him as being “like unto God”.

Did Elohim also rise from being an intelligence? If so did he advance himself, or did someone else advance him?

We haven’t been given to know that, nor would there be a reason we would need to know that. Our goal should be to advance in our own faith, trust, and obedience to the Father’s will and the Savior’s will (which is one and the same will for each of us), and avoid the distractions of wanting to know things They have not seen it is for our best good to reveal. God the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, and always has been and always will be. He knows perfectly what is in our best interest for us to know.

Did he go straight to having an immortal physical body, or did he go through the phases of being a spirit, and having a mortal body first?

Joseph Smith said that God the Father had lived on an earth like Jesus had lived on this earth, and had resurrected Himself just like Jesus was able to resurrect Himself.

The Book of Mormon talks about the foreordination of priesthood holders as part of the pre-mortal plan (in Alma 13:3-5), and about Satan’s rebellion in 2 Nephi 24:13 which is quoting Isaiah as a second witness for Isaiah’s prophetic writings. The Book of Mormon doesn’t have a discussion about pre-mortal intelligences.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

The choice made by pre-mortal spirits (referred to as angels in several verses in the Bible in translation into English) was a logical step in the process that followed the choice made by the Father’s Only Begotten Son to come to earth and be the Savior and Redeemer and Messiah. After He had said “Here am I, send me” and thus showed that His own will was perfectly in accord with His Father’s will, the other spirits in the pre-mortal world (where we all participated) also had the opportunity to make their own choice about whether to come to this earth and by so doing, accept Heavenly Father’s plan and accept that the Savior, whom we knew there, would be their (and our) Redeemer and Messiah.

The “fallen angel” spirits disagreed with Heavenly Father’s plan, and thus Jude wrote that they were the “angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation” and these “he [the Lord] hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” (Jude 6)

John wrote about that also in Revelation 12:7-9. They had made a choice to rebel and follow the “dragon”–“that old serpent, called the Devil”. The Devil led in the pre-mortal rebellion against Heavenly Father’s plan and against God’s Beloved Only Begotten Son and we all (every person who has come to this earth in mortality) agreed in that pre-mortal sphere with Heavenly Father’s plan and chose to come to this earth knowing we would need a Redeemer and Savior and Great Exemplar, the Anointed One.

I think the scriptures point out specifically that Jesus was “the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:25), so if using the word “lifted” means for you that Jesus had been “in the bosom of the Father” and is the Father’s Only Begotten Son, then it is a way to describe that.

I think we can also surmise that Jehovah immediately “advanced” as the First Born Spirit, and was God the Son before we ever knew Him, since He was God’s Only Begotten Son while we were still in the pre-spirit state of being an “intelligence”. He was omnipotent and omniscient with God the Father at that point in eternal time when we were created into being spirits. We knew Him as being “like unto God”.

We haven’t been given to know that, nor would there be a reason we would need to know that. Our goal should be to advance in our own faith, trust, and obedience to the Father’s will and the Savior’s will (which is one and the same will for each of us), and avoid the distractions of wanting to know things They have not seen it is for our best good to reveal. God the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, and always has been and always will be. He knows perfectly what is in our best interest for us to know.

Joseph Smith said that God the Father had lived on an earth like Jesus had lived on this earth, and had resurrected Himself just like Jesus was able to resurrect Himself.

The Book of Mormon talks about the foreordination of priesthood holders as part of the pre-mortal plan (in Alma 13:3-5), and about Satan’s rebellion in 2 Nephi 24:13 which is quoting Isaiah as a second witness for Isaiah’s prophetic writings. The Book of Mormon doesn’t have a discussion about pre-mortal intelligences.

I submit that you err in your interpretation regarding that lack of discouurse on “pre-mortal intelligences”. It specifically affirms that 12 followed Christ descending to earth from heaven in its very first chapter. The verses you cite only serve to generalize it as expository of universal pre-existence, not just pre-existence of Christ.

So when Elohim was mortal was he subject to the same limitations on knowledge that we have? When Jehovah was mortal as Jesus did these same awareness boundaries also limit him? How could Jesus be the Creator, as the Book of Mormon says, “the very Eternal Father,” without knowing his identity? How does that account for His omniscience? Did he stop being omniscient for a time, or was Jesus not omniscient until after His resurrection?

returning to the first question: You affirm that pre-mortal spirits chose to follow Jesus or not. If He was Jehovah, and they knew it, what other choice did they have?

 

[ParkerD]

…
returning to the first question: You affirm that pre-mortal spirits chose to follow Jesus or not. If He was Jehovah, and they knew it, what other choice did they have?

Peter John,

It seemed to me that this question was best first answered.

It is logical to understand that the dragon, the Devil, when he rebelled, was persuasive and combative and that his persuasion sounded convincing to many spirits. We learn from Isaiah that Lucifer (Satan) wanted to “ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.” So his desire for ruling power, while forcing that there be no free will choice possible, was a counterfeit “plan” that centered in his own glory and his own power. No doubt he persuaded other spirits that he would give them power also, just as people in positions of power on this earth (such as dictatorships) persuade others by linking positions of power if they are believed and followed.

Those spirits who followed his persuasion no doubt were tantalized by his enticement of power, and overcome by their own selfishness rather than allow themselves to feel the love and peace offered by the Beloved Only Begotten Son and the Most High God–for the Father’s plan would place them into a more vulnerable position although they were hearing that the plan included redemption from their sins through following the Savior on earth.

 

[ParkerD]

So when Elohim was mortal was He subject to the same limitations on knowledge that we have?

I don’t think we have been given an answer to that question, but can draw the conclusion that the Father was perfect when He lived on an earth, in that He could self-resurrect–and only one who was perfect and had that ability and knowledge for self-resurrection could do that.

When Jehovah was mortal as Jesus did these same awareness boundaries also limit him?

He knew at age twelve that He must “be about His Father’s business”, and He began His ministry with every indication that He knew that the Biblical prophecies about the Messiah, the Christ, were going to be fulfilled with His own ministry on earth–so at that point He had full awareness, and at age twelve He had more awareness than anyone on earth as either a child or an adult. He would thus have had a “veil drawn” over His awareness from pre-mortal life, when He was an infant and while He was a very young child, but His intelligence and quickness in learning by both reading and by prayer and observation far surpassed anyone else who has ever lived.

Thus at age thirty He was fully aware and I think had omnipotence as He showed with the miracles and the calming of the storms, because He grew so quickly as His innate intelligence and His mighty faith gathered all the knowledge sources available to Him, and His Light filled His soul and His mind.

How could Jesus be the Creator, as the Book of Mormon says, “the very Eternal Father,” without knowing his identity?

He knew His identity during pre-mortal life, when He was the Creator.

How does that account for His omniscience? Did he stop being omniscient for a time, or was Jesus not omniscient until after His resurrection?

As I noted, by age thirty I believe it is apparent that He was omniscient and had become so through all the knowledge sources available to Him, including by revelation directly from His Father and by being able to perfectly comprehend all the scriptures He read and heard, plus observe all the world around Him with a quality of observation that was comprehensive and would be “mind-boggling” to us.

A wish of peace to you and all.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

It seemed to me that this question was best first answered.

It is logical to understand that the dragon, the Devil, when he rebelled, was persuasive and combative and that his persuasion sounded convincing to many spirits. We learn from Isaiah that Lucifer (Satan) wanted to “ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.” So his desire for ruling power, while forcing that there be no free will choice possible, was a counterfeit “plan” that centered in his own glory and his own power. No doubt he persuaded other spirits that he would give them power also, just as people in positions of power on this earth (such as dictatorships) persuade others by linking positions of power if they are believed and followed.

Those spirits who followed his persuasion no doubt were tantalized by his enticement of power, and overcome by their own selfishness rather than allow themselves to feel the love and peace offered by the Beloved Only Begotten Son and the Most High God–for the Father’s plan would place them into a more vulnerable position although they were hearing that the plan included redemption from their sins through following the Savior on earth.

If they knew and recognized Jehovah, what reason would they have to trust Lucifer at all? Did they no know tht Jehovah had raised them from being an Intelligence? What reason would they have to think Lucifer deserved that honor?

(edited comments already answered -Peter John)

 

[Peter_John]

I don’t think we have been given an answer to that question, but can draw the conclusion that the Father was perfect when He lived on an earth, in that He could self-resurrect–and only one who was perfect and had that ability and knowledge for self-resurrection could do that.

He knew at age twelve that He must “be about His Father’s business”, and He began His ministry with every indication that He knew that the Biblical prophecies about the Messiah, the Christ, were going to be fulfilled with His own ministry on earth–so at that point He had full awareness, and at age twelve He had more awareness than anyone on earth as either a child or an adult. He would thus have had a “veil drawn” over His awareness from pre-mortal life, when He was an infant and while He was a very young child, but His intelligence and quickness in learning by both reading and by prayer and observation far surpassed anyone else who has ever lived.

Thus at age thirty He was fully aware and I think had omnipotence as He showed with the miracles and the calming of the storms, because He grew so quickly as His innate intelligence and His mighty faith gathered all the knowledge sources available to Him, and His Light filled His soul and His mind.

He knew His identity during pre-mortal life, when He was the Creator.

As I noted, by age thirty I believe it is apparent that He was omniscient and had become so through all the knowledge sources available to Him, including by revelation directly from His Father and by being able to perfectly comprehend all the scriptures He read and heard, plus observe all the world around Him with a quality of observation that was comprehensive and would be “mind-boggling” to us.

A wish of peace to you and all.

So you affirm that Elohim himself had no “god” who raised him up, as I understand you. How did he enter that mortal existence. Did he create himself? Was healready God? Was he born? Did he have mortal children? Was he married? If so did he create his own wife? Was he God before he was a mortal, or only after?

It sounds like you affirm Jesus did not know as a child that he had been the Creator before he came to Earth.

Final question: The Bible affirms that there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. If during Jesus’ youth he did not know who he had been beefore his birth, how could he mediate between humans and the Father? Did humanity spend years unable to pass its prayers unto the Father?

 

[ParkerD]

If they knew and recognized Jehovah, what reason would they have to trust Lucifer at all? Did they not know that Jehovah had raised them from being an Intelligence? What reason would they have to think Lucifer deserved that honor?

Peter John,

On this earth, people have the light of Christ and yet many do not follow the light of Christ. People can deceive themselves into letting the appeal for power blind their judgment–because the desire for power is so appealing.

Jehovah and the Father are all-wise and all-loving, so They always have and always will preserve free will choice as They direct, plan, persuade with love, and teach.

Consider also how anxious some people have been over the centuries to have a king or even a dictator rather than moving closer to self-rule (self-governance), since self-governance means taking responsibility for one’s own choices, good or bad.

It is entirely logical that the same kinds of deceptions as above, were present in the pre-mortal environment where Satan made his appeals and persuasions, and gained followers even despite seeing the love emanating from Jehovah and from Heavenly Father.

It is also possible that they had a condition of “veiled knowledge” about how they had come to be spirits, also. (It was the Father who had created their spirit self, not Jehovah.) This would be consistent in that it makes free will choice more operative when there is not an “obvious right choice” (although it may seem obvious to us from our perspective now).

Lucifer had been a “son of the morning” and was no doubt very persuasive and appealing with his counterfeit logic about power and perhaps a persuasion that included sending out messages of doubt about whether the Father’s plan would work, and/or whether Jehovah could really be trusted and counted on to truly suffer for the sins of the world. Both doubt and the appeal for power would be enticing counterfeit logic appeals, but especially the appeal for power while they were seeing his power of persuasion then and there.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

On this earth, people have the light of Christ and yet many do not follow the light of Christ. People can deceive themselves into letting the appeal for power blind their judgment–because the desire for power is so appealing.

Jehovah and the Father are all-wise and all-loving, so They always have and always will preserve free will choice as They direct, plan, persuade with love, and teach.

Consider also how anxious some people have been over the centuries to have a king or even a dictator rather than moving closer to self-rule (self-governance), since self-governance means taking responsibility for one’s own choices, good or bad.

It is entirely logical that the same kinds of deceptions as above, were present in the pre-mortal environment where Satan made his appeals and persuasions, and gained followers even despite seeing the love emanating from Jehovah and from Heavenly Father.

It is also possible that they had a condition of “veiled knowledge” about how they had come to be spirits, also. (It was the Father who had created their spirit self, not Jehovah.) This would be consistent in that it makes free will choice more operative when there is not an “obvious right choice” (although it may seem obvious to us from our perspective now).

Lucifer had been a “son of the morning” and was no doubt very persuasive and appealing with his counterfeit logic about power and perhaps a persuasion that included sending out messages of doubt about whether the Father’s plan would work, and/or whether Jehovah could really be trusted and counted on to truly suffer for the sins of the world. Both doubt and the appeal for power would be enticing counterfeit logic appeals, but especially the appeal for power while they were seeing his power of persuasion then and there.

What does it mean to say that Lucifer was a “Son of the Morning”? Since you have said that as spirits we were children of God (I assume Elohim) does that make Lucifer the child of someone else?

 

[ParkerD]

So you affirm that Elohim Himself had no “God” who raised Him up, as I understand you. How did He enter that mortal existence. Did He create himself? Was He already God? Was He born? Did He have mortal children? Was He married? If so did He create His own wife? Was He God before He was a mortal, or only after?

Peter John,

Not only do I not “affirm” what you stated, but I don’t know and don’t need to know the answers to those questions. I would not feel it needful or appropriate to ask Heavenly Father in prayer the answers to those questions. He has revealed that which is for our best good, and does everything He does for our best good, in His wisdom.

Jesus was “like unto God” and did everything He did in a manner “like His Father.” Our focus should be to seek to do Their will, and not seek after our own will or our own curiosities. We read the scriptures, rejoicing in the truths they reveal, and we pray and seek inspiration and then “go and do thou likewise” as to the things They have revealed and do reveal that we should do.

It sounds like you affirm Jesus did not know as a child that he had been the Creator before he came to Earth.

As an infant, no. Perhaps at age twelve He knew, since by then He knew the scriptural references to Himself better than anyone who had ever lived. His knowledge would have grown dramatically day by day as a youth, through both study and prayer and observation.

Final question: The Bible affirms that there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. If during Jesus’ youth he did not know who he had been before his birth, how could he mediate between humans and the Father? Did humanity spend years unable to pass its prayers unto the Father?

When Paul wrote about “one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ” (1 Timothy 2:5) then that scripture supports the distinction between God the Father and God the Son, who is Jesus Christ. The mediation Christ will do is when we are before the judgment bar of God and He “mediates” in our behalf, interceding for us and justifying our being able to live in the presence of the Father through His grace and His intercession, having suffered for our sins for this very reason and for the most glorious resurrection we would seek after and live for by our choices in this life.

Christ taught to pray to Heavenly Father, and that Heavenly Father answers our sincere prayers. The Savior did not and does not need to intercede in order for our prayers to be answered day by day. When we pray and close our prayer “in the name of Jesus Christ”, it is to affirm that we have taken upon ourselves His name and do all things for His glory and not for our own glory and that we are seeking to know and do His will and Heavenly Father’s will.

I would say that it is correct to think of Him as our “advocate” with the Father during the course of our lives on earth and in the spirit world, but it would be after His resurrection that He returned to that role which He also had in some measure during our pre-mortal life. His advocacy gained a greater dimension through His suffering on earth, and through His knowing our pains and our heartaches because He endured those very same pains and heartaches.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

Not only do I not “affirm” what you stated, but I don’t know and don’t need to know the answers to those questions. I would not feel it needful or appropriate to ask Heavenly Father in prayer the answers to those questions. He has revealed that which is for our best good, and does everything He does for our best good, in His wisdom.

Jesus was “like unto God” and did everything He did in a manner “like His Father.” Our focus should be to seek to do Their will, and not seek after our own will or our own curiosities. We read the scriptures, rejoicing in the truths they reveal, and we pray and seek inspiration and then “go and do thou likewise” as to the things They have revealed and do reveal that we should do.

As an infant, no. Perhaps at age twelve He knew, since by then He knew the scriptural references to Himself better than anyone who had ever lived. His knowledge would have grown dramatically day by day as a youth, through both study and prayer and observation.

When Paul wrote about “one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ” (1 Timothy 2:5) then that scripture supports the distinction between God the Father and God the Son, who is Jesus Christ. The mediation Christ will do is when we are before the judgment bar of God and He “mediates” in our behalf, interceding for us and justifying our being able to live in the presence of the Father through His grace and His intercession, having suffered for our sins for this very reason and for the most glorious resurrection we would seek after and live for by our choices in this life.

Christ taught to pray to Heavenly Father, and that Heavenly Father answers our sincere prayers. The Savior did not and does not need to intercede in order for our prayers to be answered day by day. When we pray and close our prayer “in the name of Jesus Christ”, it is to affirm that we have taken upon ourselves His name and do all things for His glory and not for our own glory and that we are seeking to know and do His will and Heavenly Father’s will.

I would say that it is correct to think of Him as our “advocate” with the Father during the course of our lives on earth and in the spirit world, but it would be after His resurrection that He returned to that role which He also had in some measure during our pre-mortal life. His advocacy gained a greater dimension through His suffering on earth, and through His knowing our pains and our heartaches because He endured those very same pains and heartaches.

So if some other God raised up the one you call Elohim, you must believe God’s omnipotence is relative to our relationship with him, and not absolute omnipotence.

 

[ParkerD]

So if some other God raised up the one you call Elohim, you must believe God’s omnipotence is relative to our relationship with him, and not absolute omnipotence.

Hi, Peter John,

'Hoping you have had a good week.

We seem to have a difference in the way we look at the whole concept of “omnipotence”. To me, omnipotence means having all power which ties to being perfectly good, allowing free will choice to be operative in the universe perfectly, having nothing “unexpected” happen because of also being omniscient. If there were some kind of “levels of omnipotence” which it appears you may be talking about, then as to how that word makes any sense at all to me it would be contradictory to the meaning.

If the clause you presented were true (which I don’t know and don’t need to know as I noted before, for the reasons noted before), then that would not be omnipotence. The Son being omnipotent doesn’t detract from the Father’s omnipotence. The point is that they have perfect, like understanding, and therefore have perfect, completely the same will. That is what it means to be omnipotent–to have the same understanding, the same comprehension of effects from actions, the same plan which would originate from either One because they see all things and see in advance what the very best plan is–the one that brings about the very best good in the universe or the multiverses, as the case may be.

This is what comes about from knowing all things and having complete unselfishness and a fullness of love. There is no superiority kind of situation, although the Son accords with the will of the Father. He does so with the full comprehension of knowing that the will of the Father is His will also. They are in complete agreement in every possible way, in all things.

 

[Peter_John]

Hi, Peter John,

'Hoping you have had a good week.

We seem to have a difference in the way we look at the whole concept of “omnipotence”. To me, omnipotence means having all power which ties to being perfectly good, allowing free will choice to be operative in the universe perfectly, having nothing “unexpected” happen because of also being omniscient. If there were some kind of “levels of omnipotence” which it appears you may be talking about, then as to how that word makes any sense at all to me it would be contradictory to the meaning.

If the clause you presented were true (which I don’t know and don’t need to know as I noted before, for the reasons noted before), then that would not be omnipotence. The Son being omnipotent doesn’t detract from the Father’s omnipotence. The point is that they have perfect, like understanding, and therefore have perfect, completely the same will. That is what it means to be omnipotent–to have the same understanding, the same comprehension of effects from actions, the same plan which would originate from either One because they see all things and see in advance what the very best plan is–the one that brings about the very best good in the universe or the multiverses, as the case may be.

This is what comes about from knowing all things and having complete unselfishness and a fullness of love. There is no superiority kind of situation, although the Son accords with the will of the Father. He does so with the full comprehension of knowing that the will of the Father is His will also. They are in complete agreement in every possible way, in all things.

Being mostly omnipotent is not like being a little pregnant. You cannot be paartly pregnant. You cannot be omnipotent with reservations.

The meaning of omnipotence is simple. Absolutely all powerful. This is not a matter of perception. It is a matter of definition. If one wishes to describe God’s power someother way, one must choose some other word.

If anything exists independently of God, God has no legitimate power over it. It is not His, as it exists on its own. If the Universe is made from matter that already exists, and that God has no pwer to create, than it is not His at the core.

You can rationalize yourself into believing that you can completely trust in a God who shares or borrows material, power, or status from another, but that amounts to mental gymnastics.

If God depended on someone else for power or state of existence – if God needed the approval, acceptance, or positive judgment of another to rise to that level, than another has or has had power over him.

It means that His realm has some limitation – somewhere, someplace, something exists with which he has no involvement. Even if in infinitie space He can expand infinitely, there is someplace where he has not been, something of which he is not aware, some entity over whom he has no power – especially if he depended on that entity for his own.

That is not omnipotence, plain and simple. Omnipotence is not relative.