An interesting imagination excercise....you are a Pharisee.....

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Servant19 said:
I don’t know what God looks like. As a Pharisee, how would I know?
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You wouldn’t, and obviously, neither did they.
I do recognize however, that the way a sinless man acts and behaves will have a stirring and “self-forgetting” impact on my soul and heart.
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That’s just speculation since you’ve never met a sinless man.
 
seagal said:
True, but God had a special mission for Paul. That doesn’t happen to everyone, just a select few.
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Yes indeed. This is an exercise in imagination though dear friend.

In this imaginary scenario, God has a special mission for you. He will perform miracles and answer questions of your choosing. Would you embrace Jesus’ Word if He does that?

Or are you more likely to embrace His Word if you “lost yourself” in awe when approaching His Presence?

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meltzerboy said:
Yes, I agree with you, provided any of us, including experts, would be able to understand answers to questions such as this.
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Most Christians would say that God is all knowing and all powerful, so he should know and have the capability to explain how he made the universe so that I could understand.
 
Sparkythedog said:
Most Christians would say that God is all knowing and all powerful, so he should know and have the capability to explain how he made the universe so that I could understand.
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Maybe that’s what actually happened :eek:

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I dunno…the creation of the universe, the meaning of life etc are all excellent philosophical questions however the answers alone would NOT convince me.

I would have to ‘recognise him as being the Messiah’, there would have to be that ‘knowledge and recognition in my heart’. I find it difficult to put this into words. It would have to be a spiritual experience of such emotional intensity that I would have no doubt. We are human after all not robots.

Having said that as a pharisee I would already have preconceived notions of this person which would no doubt taint the experience.
 
As a Pharisee I would not know what would convince me that I was meeting the Son of God. But if it was the Son of God, He would know what would convince me.

If I was unconvinced, then either it was not the Son of God, or else it was the Son of God and He didn’t want me to be convinced.

Unfortunately, being a fallible human, I might be convinced but be mistaken.
 
Servant19 said:
I do recognize however, that the way a sinless man acts and behaves will have a stirring and “self-forgetting” impact on my soul and heart.

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The Pharisees didn’t think Jesus was sinless. According to them he was breaking all kinds of laws.
 
Servant19 said:
Yes indeed. This is an exercise in imagination though dear friend.

In this imaginary scenario, God has a special mission for you. He will perform miracles and answer questions of your choosing. Would you embrace Jesus’ Word if He does that?

Or are you more likely to embrace His Word if you “lost yourself” in awe when approaching His Presence?

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So essentially you’re asking if my faith depends on emotions or works of miracles. I can’t honestly say. I can imagine myself living in 1st century Jerusalem as a Pharisee who spent my life studying and observing the law. If a man were to come along whose followers claim to be the Messiah, who *seemed *to be performing miracles and who definitely had a charismatic personality, I’d still be skeptical. I would’ve seen other so-called miracle workers in my day, and other men claiming to be the Messiah. I would see this man blaspheming and saying and doing things that are contrary to the law, so I would find it very hard to believe that he actually was the Son of God. I don’t know what it would take to become a believer.
 
Originally Posted by SteveVH
I hope all of you know where this is headed.
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Servant19 said:
Where’s that??
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That Jesus’ miracles, and miracles altogether, for that matter, are insignificant and meaningless in determining who Jesus really is. Therefore who is to say that Baha’u’llah was not equally as great as Jesus? Am I close?

You seem to think that just being in Jesus’ presence was enough to sweep people off of their feet. Scripture tells us differently:

“He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.”
(Isaiah 53:2-3)

Of course his miracles were significant or he would not have performed them. He didn’t go around making fig trees wither or make the blind see and the lame walk just for our entertainment. There was deep meaning in everything he did. He wished to show us that he is God, not just make some claim as future, so-called “prophets” have done. He backed up his words by divine action.
 
SteveVH said:
That Jesus’ miracles, and miracles altogether, for that matter, are insignificant and meaningless in determining who Jesus really is. Therefore who is to say that Baha’u’llah was not equally as great as Jesus? Am I close?
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D’oh! I didn’t even look to see the OP’s religion until now. :doh2:
You seem to think that just being in Jesus’ presence was enough to sweep people off of their feet. Scripture tells us differently:
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“He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.”
(Isaiah 53:2-3)
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Of course his miracles were significant or he would not have performed them. He didn’t go around making fig trees wither or make the blind see and the lame walk just for our entertainment. There was deep meaning in everything he did. He wished to show us that he is God, not just make some claim as future, so-called “prophets” have done. He backed up his words by divine action.
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And of course no other prophets in history actually resurrected from the dead.
 
SteveVH said:
That Jesus’ miracles, and miracles altogether, for that matter, are insignificant and meaningless in determining who Jesus really is. Therefore who is to say that Baha’u’llah was not equally as great as Jesus? Am I close?
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I keep hoping the mods shut down this endless chatter.
 
Servant19 said:
Imagine that you are a Pharisee.

You are on the way to meet and encounter, face to face a man claiming to be the Messiah (this happens to be Jesus) but you are very very skeptical of His claims and decide to test Him.

While walking to the meeting place you decide that you will test Him by asking Him to perform a miracle (walking on water, for example), and to answer a few deeply theological questions.

What would convince you more of His Truth?
  1. He performs the miracle and convincingly answers your questions to your satisfaction. On numerous occasions this was repeated.
OR
  1. You are so overtaken with the splendour of His being that you forget all about asking any questions or requesting any miracles, for they are insignificant to what you manifestly see before your eyes, in awe. Every time you meet Him, the same intent for miracles etc is on your mind, but each and every time, you cannot come round to make the request.
As an add on, what else would you do?

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I don’t think there is any One answer to this. God knows a heart and knows what it would take for each individual to know him. I think it would be his mere presence rather spiritual or physical. God would make the choice.
 
rinnie said:
I don’t think there is any One answer to this. God knows a heart and knows what it would take for each individual to know him. I think it would be his mere presence rather spiritual or physical. God would make the choice.
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Thankyou rinnie,

That’s a really insightful answer… 🙂

God bless you!

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SteveVH said:
That Jesus’ miracles, and miracles altogether, for that matter, are insignificant and meaningless in determining who Jesus really is. Therefore who is to say that Baha’u’llah was not equally as great as Jesus? Am I close?

You seem to think that just being in Jesus’ presence was enough to sweep people off of their feet. Scripture tells us differently:

“He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.”
(Isaiah 53:2-3)

Of course his miracles were significant or he would not have performed them. He didn’t go around making fig trees wither or make the blind see and the lame walk just for our entertainment. There was deep meaning in everything he did. He wished to show us that he is God, not just make some claim as future, so-called “prophets” have done. He backed up his words by divine action.
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Not even close.

But I can see you are posting prejudicial posts now.

Ridicule, and prejudice. Those who are armed with the power of the Holy Spirit often face these things.

God bless you 🙂

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seagal said:
D’oh! I didn’t even look to see the OP’s religion until now. :doh2:

And of course no other prophets in history actually resurrected from the dead.
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Randy_Carson said:
I keep hoping the mods shut down this endless chatter.
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I hoped the word Baha’i would not creep into this thread. But it seems Catholics cannot help themselves. Can we not have a dialogue and explore these things regardless of religion?

Believe it or not, a commonality that many religions share with each other is the miracles performed by their Founders and the inner transformations of their adherents.

You do not need to post in threads you are not able to post anything constructive in.

🙂

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Randy_Carson said:
So do those who peddle silly ideas. :yup:
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I think the Pope would think differently. (you are a Catholic right?)

Imagine inviting the Sikhs to the Vatican only to tell them they had silly ideas.
(you do realise you just said that anyone who thinks differently to Catholics should be open to prejudice and ridicule right?)

🤷

(anyway lets not get off topic)

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