An interesting observation...

  • Thread starter Thread starter lizaanne
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think what’s poignant about the story is the fact that the image of Christ was turned away from the people’s view during the Protestant services. I see nothing wrong with an empty cross, but if the image of Christ is already present on the cross, then why turn it around so you can’t see His image?
 
I think what’s poignant about the story is the fact that the image of Christ was turned away from the people’s view during the Protestant services. I see nothing wrong with an empty cross, but if the image of Christ is already present on the cross, then why turn it around so you can’t see His image?
You know, I can understand why you might see the poignancy in the moment. But it may also be that you are making more out of it than needs be. I remember as a child thinking how sad it was that Catholics couldn’t received the blood of Christ that was shed for them. Now that has, thankfully, changed. But I’ll bet that most Sundays the majority of people never even thought of it.

I’m just suggesting that what is a big deal in one person’s mind, may not be in the minds of those who actually experience it.
 
I think what’s poignant about the story is the fact that the image of Christ was turned away from the people’s view during the Protestant services. I see nothing wrong with an empty cross, but if the image of Christ is already present on the cross, then why turn it around so you can’t see His image?
These crosses are designed to be used by both protestants and Catholics…one side contains the corpus, the otherside contains the letters IHS…Rather than spending 1200 dollars on two seperate crosses that would be switched out between services the military choose to spend 700 on ONE that can be used at both. It’s not the Protestant worship traditon to have the corpus displayed, so it’s turned around by guys like me…the Chaplain Assistants (Religious Programmers in the Navy) to honor the protestant worship tradition…you find “poingancy” because you choose to…you look for it…and it’s insulting to our protestant brethern in my humble, Catholic, opinion and does unneccasary damage to the Body of Christ…his Church…RESPECT PROTESTANT WORSHIP TRADITIONS. Do you really think Christ is in heaven mourning the fact that the corpus is not displayed, or rejoicing that even with our divisions, the Protestants worship Him and seek him with sincere hearts at their worship as we do at Mass?
 
I think this observation is very poignant in the sense that in reality, even today, Catholics DO run into non-Catholics who do not understand why the corpus is on the crucifix. I know a couple of them who have expressed to me their discomfort in seeing Christ on a cross, and explain to me that Christ has risen - why be reminded of His death?
 
Here here here! Good post.

I currently work as a Chaplain’s Assistant in the United States Army. We do Ecumenism much better than most civilians. Remember, it was actually several hundred years after Christ before Christians began to display crosses as decorations…for the first 300 years of the Church crucifixion was still a brutal and widely used form of execution. And if I recall my history right, it was a while after this that we began to include the corpus on the cross. Further, I recall that some of the reformers dropped the corpus for fear of idolatry…
having said that…both are valid, Catholics foucus on the sacrafice by keeping the corpus, Protestants focus on the victory with the empty cross…and both are valid.

One Chaplain I worked with, a presbyterian (PCUSA I think) would have me leave the crucifix and the stations out during his service quite often…and ALWAYS during lent.

We Christians, Catholic and Protestants, would honor Christ much more if we acknowledged our differences and focused on our commonality. With very few exceptions this is what I’ve seen Army Chaplains do…I’m Catholic and my best prayer partner is Evangelical. My boss is Southern Baptist (but, as he says, not the scary kind…i.e he enjoys a beer…publically…and dances…etc)…the priest we have is one of the best I’ve ever seen civilian or military…since he came to us in January the Catholic mass attendance has grown by more than 1/3…enough that we have 40 to 50 people standing because of a lack of seating (this is a good problem to have) and we’re looking at adding a Sunday Afternoon Mass to reach the younger soldiers…all this said because he’s praised equally by the Catholic and Protestant congregations.

One of our Chaplains is married to a Catholic woman…they attend mass together…and then he conducts the Protestant worship immediately following…he says he goes to share Christ with his wife…but the added benefit is now he gets to steal sermon ideas.

Guys…we have real differences…and some that can’t be ignored…but some that can…instead of Protestants accusing Catholics of idolatry or not trusting the resurrection because we use the corpus…or instead of Catholics saying Protestants don’t acknowledge the brutal sacrafice on our behalf…acknowledge that the other has a rich traditon in why it uses corpus or not…and MOVE ON…this is one of the little issues that shouldn’t divide us and doesn’t please God.
👍
 
you find “poingancy” because you choose to…you look for it…and it’s insulting to our protestant brethern in my humble, Catholic, opinion and does unneccasary damage to the Body of Christ…his Church…RESPECT PROTESTANT WORSHIP TRADITIONS. Do you really think Christ is in heaven mourning the fact that the corpus is not displayed, or rejoicing that even with our divisions, the Protestants worship Him and seek him with sincere hearts at their worship as we do at Mass?
I didn’t look for anything, my heart hurt when I read the first post because the crucifix means something to me. And no, I simply can not respect what I’ve seen as protestant worship to actually be Worship. I know you and many others with take a great deal of offense to that, and I’m very sorry that you do. The crucifix means something to me though, so when people have the need to turn it around so as not to see the image of Christ suffering for our sins, then it does hurt my heart, and Yes I believe Christ does mourn such things. I’m a Catholic though, mea culpa. Kudos to those who seek Christ with sincere hearts. I know that His word is found in non-Catholic Christian traditions. Christ is really truly present in the Catholic tradition though, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, and the crucifix is how we came to be able to receive Him, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Without it, there is no resurrection. I know you’re Catholic, and I’m just preaching to the choir, but you as a Catholic should have respect for where I’m coming from here. I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone, but I feel the way I do, and see things as I do because I know and love the fullness of the Truth. I hope someday those who feel they need to avert their eyes from the image of the suffering Christ may come to the Truth themselves. Until then, I still love them, but I can not respect what they do sometimes.
 
Thank you Bee - you truly do “get it”, and understand what I was going for in my OP. 👍

~Liza
 
Many times, when I am stuggling with a painful situation, I simply sit in front of my Crucificx and meditate on Christ’s Passion and give him all my sufferings in prayer. Looking at the Crucifix, helps keep it all in perspective, and I feel like I am a part of His life, not just the “inspiring” stuff, but the emmense pain and suffering that is what He underwent for all of us. He made a place for us where there will no longer be any suffering or pain. How can I say I love him if I can not want to be focused on every aspect of His Love.?
 
And no, I simply can not respect what I’ve seen as protestant worship to actually be Worship. I know you and many others with take a great deal of offense to that, and I’m very sorry that you do.
Well, with all respect, if you believe that Protestants do not actually worship God you are very wrong and I’m sorry that you feel that way.
 
Well, with all respect, if you believe that Protestants do not actually worship God you are very wrong and I’m sorry that you feel that way.
Keep in mind, I qualified my statement with “what I’ve seen.” And I’m sorry I feel that way too. I really want it to be different, for ALL of us.
 
Keep in mind, I qualified my statement with “what I’ve seen.” And I’m sorry I feel that way too. I really want it to be different, for ALL of us.
You are a religious bigot and beyond this sort of public wringing of your hands I would urge you to real repentance and sacramental confession of this pharisaical spirit.
 
You are a religious bigot and beyond this sort of public wringing of your hands I would urge you to real repentance and sacramental confession of this pharisaical spirit.
Then count me in there as well I suppose - I will qualify myself also by saying “from what I’ve seen” that “some” Protestants don’t seem to worship, it appears to be a lot of flailing around, dropping out in theatrical faints, and jumping up and down in emotional response to stimulating music. Some - but not all.

I will agree that my understanding of worship and someone else’s are probably entirely different - but I’ve been to many different services, from Methodist to Willow Creek, to Southern Baptist, and I just always sat and wondered when do they actually worship?

Maybe for me it is simply because Christ is not present there in the Eucharist, I feel like I could just be anywhere, and with Him not there, the experience is extremely lacking.

🤷 Guess I’m a religious bigot too then. But at least I don’t hide behind political correctness in an effort to not offend. Not that offending is my primary goal either, rather, that I live true to my Faith and voice what I believe and feel as my first priority.

~Liza
 
You are a religious bigot and beyond this sort of public wringing of your hands I would urge you to real repentance and sacramental confession of this pharisaical spirit.
Now, I’m a Protestant, and I didn’t read her that way.

What I got was someone who loves her own faith expression greatly. They have been a great blessing and comfort for her in her life. She would wish the same for all others. Having her own experience and not theirs, she is unable to envision how any other experience of faithwalk could ever compare with her own experience. I don’t call that bigotry. Maybe naivette. Maybe egocentrism. Or she could be correct.

The thing is, try as we might to walk in other people’s shoes, we can never do it as well as they walk in their own. I don’t even know when I look at green grass if you and I see the same color of green, I just suppose we do. So, while it is beneficial to compare faith experiences, we can’t ever say that someone else’s is either superior or inferior to ours. (Now here I am talking about the subjective, not objective element of our faith.)
I didn’t look for anything, my heart hurt when I read the first post because the crucifix means something to me. And no, I simply can not respect what I’ve seen as protestant worship to actually be Worship. I know you and many others with take a great deal of offense to that, and I’m very sorry that you do. The crucifix means something to me though, so when people have the need to turn it around so as not to see the image of Christ suffering for our sins, then it does hurt my heart, and Yes I believe Christ does mourn such things. I’m a Catholic though, mea culpa. Kudos to those who seek Christ with sincere hearts. I know that His word is found in non-Catholic Christian traditions. Christ is really truly present in the Catholic tradition though, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, and the crucifix is how we came to be able to receive Him, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Without it, there is no resurrection. I know you’re Catholic, and I’m just preaching to the choir, but you as a Catholic should have respect for where I’m coming from here. I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone, but I feel the way I do, and see things as I do because I know and love the fullness of the Truth. I hope someday those who feel they need to avert their eyes from the image of the suffering Christ may come to the Truth themselves. Until then, I still love them, but I can not respect what they do sometimes.
Dear BeeSweet,

I rejoice in all the meaning that you find in your faith. It seems to me that you are right where God would want you to be. But that does not make it the right place for everyone. I have people in my congregation who have been blessed by particular experiences in their faithwalk, and they too love others so much that they want them all to have the same experience they had. The thing they don’t recognize is that no one else can have the same experience that they had. Not even the others who were present with them when they had their own experiences were able to have the same experience that they had. Each person has to find that which brings them closest to God. For you (and for many) the crucifix is a part of that. But others might find that with no crucifix, no cross at all, that they can still meditate on the sufferings of Christ. Perhaps that is why Mel Gibson’s movie The Passion of the Christ was so well received by both Catholic and non-Catholic Christians two years ago. And yet there still other ways. I know that for me a butterscotch drop brought that home like nothing either before or since. (Long story, you probably don’t want to read it here.)

As for turning away the crucifix. Because of your sensitivity with regard to it and how it speaks to you, I suppose it is painful even to think about. But that does not make it wrong. And that does not mean that if they were left out that it would accomplish any of what you wish for. Nor do I suspect that many would even be concerned about it after an initial period of adjustment. So, it probably is both unnecessary and inconsequential.

There was a time when Protestants were anti-Catholic. That day is, thankfully, past. But just as we Protestants have inherited some things from our Catholic forefathers, things like worshipping on Sunday. So too, we non-Catholic Protestants have inherited something from our anti-Catholic Protestant forefathers. Among them are an empty cross. Now, just as one has no less experience of Christ by worshipping on Saturday (it is not a denial of the resurrection), so too one has no less experience of Christ by worshipping with an empty cross displayed (it is not a denial of the crucifixion).

May Christ, both crucified and risen, bless your life always.
Peace.
 
You are a religious bigot and beyond this sort of public wringing of your hands I would urge you to real repentance and sacramental confession of this pharisaical spirit.
I am not intolerant, I do not hate, and I am not hypocritical and self-righteous just because I voice my opinion on what I believe to be right and wrong. Right and wrong are not necessarily life and death. Charity does not affrim a person in error. Charity corrects a person in error.

I don’t understand where you get the impression of a pharisaical spirit from anything I said. I’m interested to know exactly what you believe I need to repent of and confess.
 
As for turning away the crucifix. Because of your sensitivity with regard to it and how it speaks to you, I suppose it is painful even to think about. But that does not make it wrong. And that does not mean that if they were left out that it would accomplish any of what you wish for. Nor do I suspect that many would even be concerned about it after an initial period of adjustment. So, it probably is both unnecessary and inconsequential.
Grace Seeker ~ firstly, thank you very much for the charity you specifically offered me in your post.

As for the subject at hand, my point is that if a crucifix is already present, it is wrong to hide it. If only a bare cross were available, certainly we can still worship and adore our Lord Jesus Christ with due fervor. It’s the spirit behind the turning away from an already existing crucifix that would interfer with that worship and adoration though. I hope I worded that correctly, that may come off as somewhat harsh. I’m not saying the crucifix is necessary for respectable worship and adoration, but it is disrespectful to turn away from it. Doesn’t it seem somewhat intolerant to do such a thing?
 
My unasked for 2 cents here in the middle of this dispute-

Do not be afraid, speak out, and refuse to be silenced; I am with thee, and none shall come near to do thee harm;

I have a great following in this city.

(Acts 18:9-10)

I dont like seeing my sister in Christ being belittled simply for stating her postition.

Just my take on the back and forth.
 
I’m not saying the crucifix is necessary for respectable worship and adoration, but it is disrespectful to turn away from it. Doesn’t it seem somewhat intolerant to do such a thing?
I think I got that from your previous post. That is why I said I understood where you were coming from. And that understanding includes that you see turning the crucifix around it as disrepectful of what Christ did. I can even see why it might seem that way to you. I’m not sure that it is in fact disrespectful, however.

Is it intolerant? Yes, in the sense that I would hope that Protestant members could worship in a facility with the crucifix present and be able to tolerate doing so. There is certainly, IMO, nothing wrong with displaying a crucifix.

However, some may prefer to display a different symbol. And it seems that you yourself indicate a willingness to tolerate an empty cross if that is how a place you gathered to worship was so decorated. To me, that means that though the decorations may be significant symbols to the worshipper, they are actually irrelevant to the act of worship itself. Thus, one could worship in either setting, as we have both attested to.

If this is true, then the presence or use of one form of the cross vis-a-vis another is a matter of personal preference. In a situation where the design of the cross is such that you have a choice of two different sides, turning it to one side on one occassion and another side on another occassion would be a matter of preference and choice not tolerance/intolerance nor respect/disrespect.
 
I was a little strong there and I beg your pardon. I singled you out and should not have. And while I do detect a certain degree of triumphalism in your posts you are far from the worst offender hereabouts.

Again, I’m sorry about that.
 
I was a little strong there and I beg your pardon. I singled you out and should not have. And while I do detect a certain degree of triumphalism in your posts you are far from the worst offender hereabouts.

Again, I’m sorry about that.
No harm done ~ apology accepted 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top