An interesting solution to the omnipotence paradox

[Wesrock]

whatistrue:

The definitions being man made still doesn’t mean that a single figure could be both straight sided and completely round at the same time.

Aren’t longitudinal lines straight and circular at the same time? And perpendicular to lattitudinal lines? Have you considered all the possibilities God could have altered to make new geometries?

Obviously we would need to be specific to the geometrical parameters. For example, on a flat, 2D Euclidean geometry a straight line could not also be round.

 

[Wesrock]

@Thinker_Doer

Let me put it another way. Do all electrons have something fundamentally and really common between them? Do all up quarks have something fundamentally really common between them? If yes to both, is what an electron is different than what an up quark is?

 

[whatistrue]

Only in the same way that a circle on a plane is straight if viewed from within the plane. And I should have included the part about them being plane figures vice spherical. And this is one reason why I don’t especially like the “square circle” argument.

 

[Wesrock]

Only in the same way that a circle on a plane is straight if viewed from within the plane. And I should have included the part about them being plane figures vice spherical. And this is one reason why I don’t especially like the “square circle” argument.

The square circle argument supposes a Euclidean geometry. Countering with different geometries just misunderstands the point.

I think @ProdglArchitect understands why I stated it the way I did in my first post.

 

[Dovekin]

Obviously we would need to be specific to the geometrical parameters. For example, on a flat, 2D Euclidean geometry a straight line could not also be round.

Isn’t that the point of the OP?

the omnipotence paradox denotes that, on the one hand, God is omnipotent, which seems to mean that He can do every thing, but, on the other hand, there seem to be some things that God cannot do.

We can restate this paradox as “God can do everything except when there are specific parameters that exclude something.” Or “Is God constrained by parameters?”

It should be fairly easy to create a space with a metric where the points of a square are equidistant from the center. (polar coordinates multiplied by a sine function should do it, I think) God could create a square circle in a universe created with those parameters. God cannot create a square circle within a world with the same parameters as ours.

God does not do this and that. God creates the universe in a single, simple act and all divine action is a perception of that single omnipotent act.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

Obviously we would need to be specific to the geometrical parameters. For example, on a flat, 2D Euclidean geometry a straight line could not also be round.

Isn’t that the point of the OP?

the omnipotence paradox denotes that, on the one hand, God is omnipotent, which seems to mean that He can do every thing, but, on the other hand, there seem to be some things that God cannot do.

We can restate this paradox as “God can do everything except when there are specific parameters that exclude something.” Or “Is God constrained by parameters?”

It should be fairly easy to create a space with a metric where the points of a square are equidistant from the center. (polar coordinates multiplied by a sine function should do it, I think) God could create a square circle in a universe created with those parameters. God cannot create a square circle within a world with the same parameters as ours.

God does not do this and that. God creates the universe in a single, simple act and all divine action is a perception of that single omnipotent act.

It depends on your take on omnipotence. However, too much focus is being put on the words square-circle. What you’re proposing is that a 2D polygon where all its points are equidistant from the center and all its points are along four straight sides of equal length joined at four corners is a contradiction in some geometries and is not a contradiction in others. But you’re not showing an example of God creating a contradiction, which would involve creating it in geometries where it is a contradiction.

 

[Thinker_Doer]

Why wait? Your notion of artificiality isn’t a criticism that applies to Thomism or classical theology.

Thomistic philosophy is not universally accepted by ALL Catholic philosophers.

You are the one effectively claiming you see no real commonality between any cows and no real commonality between any goats and so cannot identify a real difference between one group and the other.

No, I did not say that. I only say that you are unable to enumerate the precise differences.

Do all electrons have something fundamentally and really common between them?

Sure… what is it? Precisely. You see, precision is important - especially science.

 

[goout]

Like all of these circular discussions about the nature of God, these are not deep philosophical discussions, they are (almost) pointless semantic arguments. They are fueled by a an obstinate resistance to common language and common definitions.

I classify these as “Billy Preston” arguments.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

Do all electrons have something fundamentally and really common between them?

Sure.

Do you really mean “yes” to this?

 

[goout]

Thinker_Doer:

Wesrock:

Do all electrons have something fundamentally and really common between them?

Sure.

Do you really mean “yes” to this?

Thanks for that.

 

[Dovekin]

What you’re proposing is that a 2D polygon where all its points are equidistant from the center and all its points are along four straight sides of equal length joined at four corners is a contradiction in some geometries and is not a contradiction in others. But you’re not showing an example of God creating a contradiction, which would involve creating it in geometries where it is a contradiction.

Exactly right. I am not showing that God creates contradictions. I am providing an example of God’s omnipotence. God’s creativity encompasses the whole universe and creating a square circle is done within the context of creating the universe with the right parameters.

It is not that God cannot create a square circle. It is that square circles are not possible in the world God has created. God could do it by creating the universe with different parameters, ie God is omnipotent.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

What you’re proposing is that a 2D polygon where all its points are equidistant from the center and all its points are along four straight sides of equal length joined at four corners is a contradiction in some geometries and is not a contradiction in others. But you’re not showing an example of God creating a contradiction, which would involve creating it in geometries where it is a contradiction.

Exactly right. I am not showing that God creates contradictions. I am providing an example of God’s omnipotence. God’s creativity encompasses the whole universe and creating a square circle is done within the context of creating the universe with the right parameters.

It is not that God cannot create a square circle. It is that square circles are not possible in the world God has created. God could do it by creating the universe with different parameters, ie God is omnipotent.

I would agree, and a good point, but the usual point of dispute between theologians is whether God can create such logical contradictions.

 

[goout]

Wesrock:

What you’re proposing is that a 2D polygon where all its points are equidistant from the center and all its points are along four straight sides of equal length joined at four corners is a contradiction in some geometries and is not a contradiction in others. But you’re not showing an example of God creating a contradiction, which would involve creating it in geometries where it is a contradiction.

Exactly right. I am not showing that God creates contradictions. I am providing an example of God’s omnipotence. God’s creativity encompasses the whole universe and creating a square circle is done within the context of creating the universe with the right parameters.

It is not that God cannot create a square circle. It is that square circles are not possible in the world God has created. God could do it by creating the universe with different parameters, ie God is omnipotent.

This illustrates my point: this is not a philosophical problem, it is a language parsing problem.

In Christianity, God is intelligible. God is reason-able. God reveals himself to human beings and we comprehend to the degree we are able. But what we are able to comprehend is reasonable. Even the boundless mystery that God is points us to further revelation. God is not arbitrary, capricious, or mis-behaving in a way contradictory to God’s own nature.

As human beings, we express the world God has created. Now, to be sure we can say “circle” in 65 different languages. But it all expresses the same thing. To say that God can create a universe in which a circle is square is simply playing with language, not discovering anything about God or his nature.
Just my take.

 

[Dovekin]

As human beings, we express the world God has created.

And that is the paradox. When we try to describe what God has created, we are limited by the world we know. But if God is anything, God is more than the world we know. If we see everything as a “language parsing problem” then we are not getting past ourselves.

God is Creator. When we encounter the paradoxes the OP mentioned, we can try and resolve them as if God were constrained by our limitations. Or we can say God is the source of all limitation, and so is sovereign over it. God can create a world that includes square circles, but that is not the world we know. God created a world where square circles cannot exist, but that does not mean God could not have created a world where they are possible. God is omnipotent in light of his ability to create Laws and live by them.

 

[Wesrock]

goout:

As human beings, we express the world God has created.

And that is the paradox. When we try to describe what God has created, we are limited by the world we know. But if God is anything, God is more than the world we know. If we see everything as a “language parsing problem” then we are not getting past ourselves.

God is Creator. When we encounter the paradoxes the OP mentioned, we can try and resolve them as if God were constrained by our limitations. Or we can say God is the source of all limitation, and so is sovereign over it. God can create a world that includes square circles, but that is not the world we know. God created a world where square circles cannot exist, but that does not mean God could not have created a world where they are possible. God is omnipotent in light of his ability to create Laws and live by them.

And it may be that there is no capacity for what we mean by a square circle in any geometry, or a square triangle, or another such example.