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Mickey
Guest
Welcome NDM,
What is the Mormon understanding of the Trinity?
What is the Mormon understanding of the Trinity?
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NotreDameMormon
Guest
Thank you,
Yes, Mormons love to dance to, listen to, sing, and play music. As a youth, my non-LDS friends used to love to come to our youth dances on the weekends. They were a lot of fun for anyone and a great place to meet new people.
The only qualification put on music and dancing is best summed up in the Church’s counsel to the youth:
“Music is an important and powerful part of life. It can be an influence for good that helps you draw closer to Heavenly Father. However, it can also be used for wicked purposes. Unworthy music may seem harmless, but it can have evil effects on your mind and spirit.
Choose carefully the music you listen to. Pay attention to how you feel when you are listening. Don’t listen to music that drives away the Spirit, encourages immorality, glorifies violence, uses foul or offensive language, or promotes Satanism or other evil practices.
Dancing can be fun and can provide an opportunity to meet new people. However, it too can be misused. When dancing, avoid full body contact with your partner. Do not use positions or moves that are suggestive of sexual behavior. Plan and attend dances where dress, grooming, lighting, lyrics, and music contribute to a wholesome atmosphere where the Spirit of the Lord may be present."
“Praise the Lord with singing, with music, with dancing” (D&C 136:28).
Thanks for your question.
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NotreDameMormon
Guest
Great question.
Yes, the Church is responsible for and dedicated to bringing blessings of the Gospel to of all God’s children no matter when they lived or died.
With respect to baptism, the LDS and Catholic understanding is parallel in that they both understand baptism to be a necessary part of accepting salvation through the Atonement of Christ. As Christ taught, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”
After Christ died and before he was resurrected, “he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.” There were those who had already passed through mortality that were waiting for His Atonement to take place and pave the way for repentance and salvation from sin. His preaching to them as spirits in prison shows the mercy of God and the free will of the soul.
With the commandment for baptism for the dead, members of the church stand in and are baptized for and in behalf of those who have passed on. The souls of those people are free to accept the baptism on their behalf just as they are free to accept the Atonement of Christ.
Baptism for the dead shows, as Christ did through his own baptism, that baptism of the flesh is required for all of God’s children. It is an important symbol and covenant. It is also a great example of the mercy and justice of God.
I hope this brief explanation is helpful.
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NotreDameMormon
Guest
This is at once a very simple and complex question.
If I comprehend it correctly, the Catholic understanding of the Trinity is that God is revealed in three ways: (1) As the Father and Creator, (2) As Christ the Son, and (3) As the Holy Spirit. All representations are in fact the same God. The One is Three.
The LDS understanding is along the same lines but views the Three as distinct individuals with one mind and will. In that respect, when Christ speaks, the Father speaks. When the Spirit speaks, the Father speaks, etc… Christ and the Holy Spirit are servants of the Father who have, by virtue of their loyalty and perfect oneness with His mind and will, been granted to sit with Him in His throne and see to His work and glory, which is the progression of His children. All the power and glory of the Three rest with the Father.
This is not an easy topic to clearly explain, but essentially, the oneness and perfection of the Catholic Trinity is also the oneness and perfection of the LDS Trinity, it is just that in one case the One is Three, and in the other, the Three are One.
Sufficiently lost? Good. Me, too.
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NotreDameMormon
Guest
I’m sorry, Kellie. I didn’t see your question earlier.hi NotreDameMormon,
Welcome to our forums
My question is …
Why do you not think that the Catholic Church is not the true church, and not the church that Jesus founded?
Thanks
The fundamental tension between the Catholic and LDS Church is the BOTH claim to be the one and only vehicle that Christ has officially commissioned to carry on the work and administration of the Gospel. Depending on how you approach the question, they are both absolutely right, and both absolutely wrong.
In the New Testament, the apostles saw a man healing the sick in the name of Christ and tried to stop him because he was not one of Christ’s selected and ordained apostles:
“And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.”
In this we understand that any who do the work of God (love thy neighbor, care for the fatherless and the widows, etc.) are on His part and they have His Spirit to be with them. From that perspective both the Catholic Church and the LDS Church are Christ’s.
At the same time, the Catholic Church and the LDS Church both understand that the priesthood authority and priesthood keys are necessary to administer the Gospel of Christ and bind on earth what will be bound in heaven. “And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.” Who has that authority? Who was given and maintains the keys? The Catholic Church claims it through Peter, and so does the LDS Church.
What can I say more? Maybe it is part of the plan. Maybe it is a trial of faith. Maybe we are meant to seek and discern who actually has the keys by the manner in which they are used. I don’t know. You know my choice and I know yours. The question now is, are we going to forbid each other or work together?
Great question.
S
sterryfamily
Guest
OK…I posted this in a separate thread and got 0 response, so I’m posting it here (NDM, there appear to be other separate threads directed to you out there):
The biggie for me is this:
Do Mormons believe that Christ is divine?
My understanding (correct me where I’m wrong) is that Mormons believe the Church that Christ established quickly fell into complete apostasy and needed to be re-established across the globe. If this is so, then it seems that Christ, when He said the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church, either: a) lied, or b) didn’t know what He was talking about (couldn’t really make an eternal promise). “…and, lo, I am with you always…”
How do you guys reconcile this with Mormon teaching?
The biggie for me is this:
Do Mormons believe that Christ is divine?
My understanding (correct me where I’m wrong) is that Mormons believe the Church that Christ established quickly fell into complete apostasy and needed to be re-established across the globe. If this is so, then it seems that Christ, when He said the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church, either: a) lied, or b) didn’t know what He was talking about (couldn’t really make an eternal promise). “…and, lo, I am with you always…”
How do you guys reconcile this with Mormon teaching?
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NotreDameMormon
Guest
I apologize, sterryfamily.
I am afraid I am not very savvy when it comes to this discussion board. I do not know when someone posts a question for me unless it is posted here. I am afraid I will not have enough time to search all the posts to find any questions intended for me. I may have to stick to this thread. We’ll see.
The answer to your question is (d) none of the above. LDS know Christ is divine and believe that He sees the beginning and the end. There are two reasons the apostasy is held to be consistent with this passage of scripture.
The first reason is that the gates of hell never did prevail against the Church. The people persecuted the Christians, killed the apostles, and ran the Church underground so that by the time they realized the truth, there were only fragments left to piece together. The world, of its own free will, rejected Christ and rejected His Church. While I am sure Satan delighted in that fact, we all know that Satan does not have power where God does not allow him power. In that respect, the LDS agree, that the gates of hell did not prevail against the Church. The children of God, of their own free will, rejected Christ and His Church.
The second reason the apostasy is seen to be consistent with scripture has to do with how the text is interpreted. The Catholics read the text to establish Peter as the rock upon which the Church would be built. The LDS read the text similarly except they believe the rock referred to is the revelation Peter received through the Spirit. The Spirit testified of the divinity of Christ. Christ is often referred to as the Rock in scripture. The LDS believe the rock is revelation, through the Spirit, to those who are called and given priesthood keys, of the divinity and mission of Christ that the Church was and is built on. In the initial Church, Peter received those revelations and held those priesthood keys.
Thanks for the question.
R
RyanL
Guest
Be careful, my friend, as I think you’re ascribing to the Catholic Church the belief in Modalism. We would reject that as heresy.
We would say that in the One God there are three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These are distinct persons, but are One in nature (not just mind/will). My nature is human, which is both body and soul (hylomorphic). The nature of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit is God. (This, of course, is complicated by Jesus having two natures - human and divine - but we should leave that aside right now.) The classic explanation is that of a shamrock. There is not one leaf, as there are three distinct lobes; there are not three leaves, as there is only one stem. (Courtesy of St. Patrick :irish2:.)
Don’t quite get it? Neither do we.
God Bless,
RyanL
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Ahimsa
Guest
A
Ahimsa
Guest
How about this?
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boppysbud
Guest
They do not beleive in the Holy Trininity, they believe rather in at least three seperate “Gods”>
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Landon
Guest
What are your views regarding abortion?
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kellie
Guest
Thanks for answering
I know Rachel has asked we open new threads for each question, but you have indicated that you wish to stick to this one thread for now, so I will post my next question here too.
Its regarding the above reply you gave me.
You say the LDS Church claims the keys to heaven through Peter, the same way that the Catholic Church does.
The Catholic Church believes in Apostolic succession however, meaning Peter was our first Pope, even though the word Pope wasnt used back then. We trace the current Pope back to an unbroken succession to Peter.
That is why we say we are the Church Jesus founded.
How does your church claim to be the true church if it doesnt have this Apostolic succession?
Thanks for being so friendly too
Its a nice change
C
christianley
Guest
That was my first thought when I read this. NDMormon was calling Catholics modalists. I’m glad you explained it.
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NotreDameMormon
Guest
This is another important question, one that RyanL and I are currently discussing.
The Church’s response to that question (found in the Newsroom section of LDS.org) is:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life. Therefore, the Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience, and counsels its members not to submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions.
The Church allows for possible exceptions for its members when:
• Pregnancy results from rape or incest, or
• A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, or
• A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.
The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons involved have consulted with their local church leaders and feel through personal prayer that their decision is correct."
Thanks for the question.
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NotreDameMormon
Guest
Great follow up question.Thanks for answering
I know Rachel has asked we open new threads for each question, but you have indicated that you wish to stick to this one thread for now, so I will post my next question here too.
Its regarding the above reply you gave me.
You say the LDS Church claims the keys to heaven through Peter, the same way that the Catholic Church does.
The Catholic Church believes in Apostolic succession however, meaning Peter was our first Pope, even though the word Pope wasnt used back then. We trace the current Pope back to an unbroken succession to Peter.
That is why we say we are the Church Jesus founded.
How does your church claim to be the true church if it doesnt have this Apostolic succession?
Thanks for being so friendly too
Peter, James, and John were what the LDS refer to as the “First Presidency” of the Church. They were taken by Christ to the mount, saw Him transfigured, heard the voice of God bear record of His divinity, and received important priesthood keys from Elijah, Elias, and Moses.
As a 14 year old boy, Joseph Smith saw the various religions of the day and approached the Lord in prayer for guidance on which he should join. In a miraculous modern-day revelation, God the Father and Christ appeared in vision and told the boy that none of the organizations then present on the Earth were the organization He had established. Joseph was also told that, if he continued to be faithful, he would play a part in the restoration of that organization.
A few years later, Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith and a man named Oliver Cowdery, and conferred upon them the priesthood and the keys for reestablishing the Church and administering the Gospel.
So, in this respect, both the Catholic Church and the LDS Church claim a direct link in the priesthood keys to Peter, the first Pope or President of the Twelve.
Thanks, again.
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Mickey
Guest
I like it!
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sterryfamily
Guest
Thank you for the response. And thanks for your patience - man, you are gonna get busy here.
In MT 16:17, Jesus bestows multiple blessings upon Peter: Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Thanks again for your graciousness and helpfulness.
Are you saying it appears that the church went “hidden” until Joseph Smith? Doesn’t it seem like this is contrary to Christ’s promise? How could He be with the Church “Always” and how could the Church “never” be prevailed against if it was “lost” through persecution, death, and fragmentation? Why would God waste His time? Why would He bother to suffer ignominy on the cross if he knew this would happen?
The “rock” and “foundation” of the church, in Scripture, is described some places as Christ, some as the Father, some as faith, some as the apostles, and here as Peter. The ECF and Catholics today have no problem with this. But one does not cancel out the other. Catholics do not see Scriptures painting an either/or dilemma pitting one passage against the other and forcing one to choose.
In MT 16:17, Jesus bestows multiple blessings upon Peter: Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
- The beginning of that third sentence, in the original Aramaic, would have been rendered something like, “And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my church…” (Whenever God changed a man’s name it had significant meaning. Kepha, or Peter, means “Rock”)
- The Jews of the day understood well that the “keys to the kingdom” were an ancient symbol of transferrence of authority to one who would stand in as the Royal Vizier or Prime Minister in the absence of the Master. More importantly they understood that this new office was, again from ancient times, one of succession.
- The writings of the early Christians confirms their understanding of Peter, and his successors as the rock that Christ intended His Church to be built upon.
Thanks again for your graciousness and helpfulness.
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
Hello NDM;
Welcome, welcome to the CA forums! I’ve been following this thread, but have not posted yet. I am not an expert on Mormon theology, but have taken an interest in the subject since my brother converted from Catholicism to the LDS faith about 10 years ago. He is now an active member of his church along with his wife.
I am an active member of my Catholic parish.
We have many differences when it comes to our beliefs, but we can discuss them in charity and mutual respect. It’s nice to see that happen here too.
My question for you:
I have heard of the LDS doctrine of “eternal progression” from many different sources. I’ve heard it described as the belief that humans actually become gods just like God the Father. I’ve read of comments attributed to Joseph Smith such as, “as man is God once was, as God is man may become.” Other sources say eternal progression is something like a complete joining with God the Father? Still others I’ve spoken with describe eternal progression as a sort of eternal “pyramid” with humans moving up from humanity to divinity, provided they are good temple-worthy Mormons. And I’ve heard non-LDS people comment about how “Mormons think that one day they will be the god of their very own planet?!” (Note: I tend to give little weight to the latter comments, and would like to hear directly from someone who is an active LDS Church member.) There seems to be a confusing mix of information on the doctrine, and I am truly curious about the issue… so… without meaning to offend:
What does the LDS Church teach about what happens after life on Earth? Do you believe you will become a god? If not, what do you think happens after life on Earth?
Peace,
-Robert
Welcome, welcome to the CA forums! I’ve been following this thread, but have not posted yet. I am not an expert on Mormon theology, but have taken an interest in the subject since my brother converted from Catholicism to the LDS faith about 10 years ago. He is now an active member of his church along with his wife.
I am an active member of my Catholic parish.
We have many differences when it comes to our beliefs, but we can discuss them in charity and mutual respect. It’s nice to see that happen here too.
My question for you:
I have heard of the LDS doctrine of “eternal progression” from many different sources. I’ve heard it described as the belief that humans actually become gods just like God the Father. I’ve read of comments attributed to Joseph Smith such as, “as man is God once was, as God is man may become.” Other sources say eternal progression is something like a complete joining with God the Father? Still others I’ve spoken with describe eternal progression as a sort of eternal “pyramid” with humans moving up from humanity to divinity, provided they are good temple-worthy Mormons. And I’ve heard non-LDS people comment about how “Mormons think that one day they will be the god of their very own planet?!” (Note: I tend to give little weight to the latter comments, and would like to hear directly from someone who is an active LDS Church member.) There seems to be a confusing mix of information on the doctrine, and I am truly curious about the issue… so… without meaning to offend:
What does the LDS Church teach about what happens after life on Earth? Do you believe you will become a god? If not, what do you think happens after life on Earth?
Peace,
-Robert
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NotreDameMormon
Guest
Thank you for a great question, Robert.Hello NDM;
Welcome, welcome to the CA forums! I’ve been following this thread, but have not posted yet. I am not an expert on Mormon theology, but have taken an interest in the subject since my brother converted from Catholicism to the LDS faith about 10 years ago. He is now an active member of his church along with his wife.
I am an active member of my Catholic parish.
We have many differences when it comes to our beliefs, but we can discuss them in charity and mutual respect. It’s nice to see that happen here too.
My question for you:
I have heard of the LDS doctrine of “eternal progression” from many different sources. I’ve heard it described as the belief that humans actually become gods just like God the Father. I’ve read of comments attributed to Joseph Smith such as, “as man is God once was, as God is man may become.” Other sources say eternal progression is something like a complete joining with God the Father? Still others I’ve spoken with describe eternal progression as a sort of eternal “pyramid” with humans moving up from humanity to divinity, provided they are good temple-worthy Mormons. And I’ve heard non-LDS people comment about how “Mormons think that one day they will be the god of their very own planet?!” (Note: I tend to give little weight to the latter comments, and would like to hear directly from someone who is an active LDS Church member.) There seems to be a confusing mix of information on the doctrine, and I am truly curious about the issue… so… without meaning to offend:
What does the LDS Church teach about what happens after life on Earth? Do you believe you will become a god? If not, what do you think happens after life on Earth?
Peace,
-Robert
For the LDS, one of the defining glories of God is that He exalts all things around Him into greater and greater spheres of happiness (keeping with free will, of course).
God, in His perfect love, desires all of His children to be as happy as He is and to enjoy the type of happiness He enjoys. Progression (true knowledge, power, and character) is simply the natural consequence of learning to love, act, and be like God.
God’s promise to His children is that if they will trust Him and follow His commandments, they will (through the Atonement of Christ) overcome and sit with Him in His throne and inherit all that He has. For the LDS, this means they will become like God (ie. become gods themselves).
For the LDS, this in no way demeans God since He is eternally exalted above all that He exalts. Also, for the idea that His children becoming gods like Him encroaches on His kingdom and glory; if you split an infinite kingdom of glory in half, how big is each portion? Likewise, if you split it an infinite number of times, how big is each portion?
The easiest way to understand the LDS view is to think of a loving and dedicated parent that expends all their time, energy, and power providing opportunities and support for their children to learn, grow, and achieve true happiness. In so doing, as that child benefits and becomes great, the glory further reflects back onto the love, devotion, and perfection of the parent. Thus, as the child becomes great, the parent becomes even more great.
In short, the answer to your question is: Yes, of course we can become like God. That is His commandment for us and the purpose of our creation.
Thanks, again. Great question.
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