An object being it's own cause

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ive always thought of time as simply the illusion of measure of change
Measurement to a person is an artificial assignment, so in that sense, any actual measurement is artificial and those a bit of an illusion. But the fact remains that what we have always been calling time is no more than us observing a relative change in state of our surroundings.
…as cause and effect can be seperated by substance. any comments?
I’m not certain what you meant by that.

Substance cannot exist without cause and effect flow just as with time and distance.

All things come into being by anything having effect on anything else. The entire universe of distance, time, and inertia (“substance”) are directly derived (created to precision) by such affectants.

The universe logically absolutely must exist because such affectants cannot logically not exist.

The reason light travels at its particular speed is because its speed is what created the distance of its travel and the size of all things. Believe it or not, this actually relates to Genesis in an interesting way. 🙂
 
What about the change of imaginary gods of Greece to normal God belief? In this state imaginary gods are used and it makes the flow of God caused by imagination.

I suggest not attempting to talk about imaginary time as though it was real regardless of someone putting it into an equation. Anything can be put into an equation.

You are describing the scenario of a single event happening instantaneously. Such is not the issue.

The fact that there was a change from when Aristotle began to push and Socrates fell means that time must exist. In fact such an occurrence by itself gives time existence because it is change.

How quickly that change took place is merely an issue of relative measure. The event happened instantaneously relative to some other event.

If you want to propose that ALL events happen instantaneously, then again, you have no universe.

The “cause” of time is any change of state.
I suggest not attempting to talk about imaginary time as though it was real regardless of someone putting it into an equation. Anything can be put into an equation.
Yeah your right.

I think I agree with you now:

We know that before plank time there had to be a singularity. This singularity will be at T = 0, and at this time the universe existed as an atom with that is unfathomably dense, and unfathomably small. There needs to be an efficient cause for the “big bang” that caused this atom to explode, otherwise it would have stayed in the same state. Now since nothing can cause itself, this efficient cause will need to be outside of the universe.

Now obviously this efficient cause will have to be that of a will otherwise this cause will still be acting and thus will still be producing the effect. Therefore it must be an intelligence that withholds this efficient cause.

Now in light of this, I do not believe this primeval atom at one time had being, as it is not being itself. So this atom was at one time created without motion, as stated in Summa Theologica Prima Pars Q.45 A3
 
“Nothing” means the total inability to have affect.

An “area” of nothingness can “exist” in that within that area there is no object with the ability to affect anything.

This is really only a partial truth. It is our misperception that leads us to believe and accept that the area itself has no effect. In reality the area is the only thing that has effect upon us.

The object that we “see” cannot actually affect anything but the area around itself, which in turns affects the area around it and so on until the area around us affects us. Our mind then deduces that it was due to the distant object that we were affected.

Our minds “predefine” what an “object” is not by whether it directly affected us, but rather by the conclusion that something has more relevant affect than its surroundings. It is relevance that guides our sense of concerns and thus our thoughts. We instinctively conclude that the area is not the more concerning affect, but some “object” within that area.
 
“Nothing” means the total inability to have affect.

An “area” of nothingness can “exist” in that within that area there is no object with the ability to affect anything.

This is really only a partial truth. It is our misperception that leads us to believe and accept that the area itself has no effect. In reality the area is the only thing that has effect upon us.

The object that we “see” cannot actually affect anything but the area around itself, which in turns affects the area around it and so on until the area around us affects us. Our mind then deduces that it was due to the distant object that we were affected.

Our minds “predefine” what an “object” is not by whether it directly affected us, but rather by the conclusion that something has more relevant affect than its surroundings. It is relevance that guides our sense of concerns and thus our thoughts. We instinctively conclude that the area is not the more concerning affect, but some “object” within that area.
Heidegger asked Why is there something instead of nothing? I would paraphrase this to ask If there is a something, can there be a nothing? Spinoza argued strongly that there was no such thing as ‘nothing’, he called it a vacuum, and that space was extended substance. I think that much of the discussion formerly mentioned here also discusses such qm, emw theory, zpe fields, etc… I remember as a child be taught that light was a particle with properties and functionality of a wave. This is a gross simplification to help visually explain basic physics. The reality is that either there is a either a medium through which a wave (of gravity, light, etc…) must travel. Even Einstein, who felt his General and Special Theories of Relativity obviated ether, said that it just gave space mass. So which is it?
 
Heidegger asked Why is there something instead of nothing? I would paraphrase this to ask If there is a something, can there be a nothing?
I think in this, you misunderstand the question just as so many have trouble understanding my question in “Wanna Get Deep?”. He was asking the same basic question that I have been asking, “Why is it impossible for Reality to have been pure nothingness (not even God) instead of having a universe in it?”
Spinoza argued strongly that there was no such thing as ‘nothing’, he called it a vacuum, and that space was extended substance. I think that much of the discussion formerly mentioned here also discusses such qm, emw theory, zpe fields, etc… I remember as a child be taught that light was a particle with properties and functionality of a wave. This is a gross simplification to help visually explain basic physics. The reality is that either there is a either a medium through which a wave (of gravity, light, etc…) must travel. Even Einstein, who felt his General and Special Theories of Relativity obviated ether, said that it just gave space mass. So which is it?
Spinoza was right about a vacuum actually being a “something” that Aristotle had named “aether”.

But in addition, it is logically impossible for a nothing to exist anywhere at all if there is any existence anywhere. The logic for this involves the fact that existence, being the ability to have affect, will be affected by that proposed “nothingness” spot in space. But because that spot effected something, it would not be “nothing”.

In fact, if you could truly remove ALL potential to conduct electric charge through an area in space, that area would appear as a totally solid wall, impervious to anything and everything. Nothingness cannot behave as somethingness and the difference causes effect == something.

That answers your first question. 🙂
 
“Why is it impossible for Reality to have been pure nothingness (not even God) instead of having a universe in it?”
I understood, and the answer is the same, there is either something, or there is nothing. The evidence (as Descartes would say) is that since we are, there is something and nothing cannot be. The reason it is impossible is because, imo, you are creating a false dichotomy. There is an implication the answer can be made, but there is no answer. In 2-dimensional cartesian math, y=x+2 will always have a slope of 1, and intercept the y-axis at 2. Why is it impossible to have a slope of 1? Because the reality is it has a slope of 1 and there is nothing that can be done to prove otherwise. Answering your question is like trying to prove you didn’t do something.

Even Scripturally speaking, the Bible does not say the Universe was created out of nothing, it was recreated from ‘something’ that existed before. The word for ‘create’ is ברא (ba’ra) and means to form from something already in existence, not from the great void.
 
Logically, nothing can exist without time.
I don’t see how this follows if you are claiming that time is the result of objects; since time/change is then understood as being caused by the presence of being; thus one cannot avoid the fact that even though we see things in existence which are acting in relation to their changing, not all that which exists can be said to be caused by change, since being predominates change. What we must understand is that “potential change” is ultimately caused by the presence of an eternal act/being. There has to be beings before there can be change.

But anything which changes in relation to that which is “accidental or potential form”, cannot be attributed the nature of “existence” as an absolute, but is instead that which participates in the eternal act of existence; they participate in “act”. It is precisely the fact that they are potential which renders them either impossible or possible as a result of being, since nothing is possible in respect of nothing, and therefore an eternal potential act cannot act by itself unless its potentiality is the product of something that is already present by necessity. Thus there must be that which is existence/act by nature of being rather then by change and accidental form; this being is a timeless transcendent act; which is the definition of ultimate reality. Such a being cannot be included in the nature of that which exists only as a potential truth, for there can be no such thing as absolute nothing and neither can there be an ontological truth in that which is not real.

Therefore there must be that which is subsistent-being/existence by nature, which is not caused by changing beings but is instead "reality itself/ultimate truth (as apposed to absolute nothing" which is unreality) and is thus the cause of potential realities regardless of whether or not they are determinate or indeterminate. Such a being, in so far as it is necessary reality, is by definition of its being, the sustenance of all potential realities. Their continence as beings, insofar as their limited nature is concerned, cannot be logically understood outside of there relationship to that which is pure reality. From this we can know that not all beings are required to change in order to exist or have an effect so long as such a being is understood in its proper context. In other words that which defines existence, cannot be included in the series of that which potentially exists. God is pure act.
 
Even Scripturally speaking, the Bible does not say the Universe was created out of nothing, it was recreated from ‘something’ that existed before. The word for ‘create’ is ברא (ba’ra) and means to form from something already in existence, not from the great void.
Yes, but we are on a Catholic sight. 😉

And no, you still did not get the question. o well. :banghead:
 
Even Scripturally speaking, the Bible does not say the Universe was created out of nothing, it was recreated from ‘something’ that existed before. The word for ‘create’ is ברא (ba’ra) and means to form from something already in existence, not from the great void.
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woaah! Are you saying that creation is made out of the Divine Substance? Are you an undercover deist?
 
woaah! Are you saying that creation is made out of the Divine Substance? Are you an undercover deist?
Let me check, no, I am saying out of ‘something’ God made the Universe. Note the ‘period’ at the end of the sentence. There are at least two thing that can be determined from the Bible saying out of ‘something’ he formed the Universe as we know it.

1-There is another ‘something’ of which we are totally unfamiliar with that God used to create this universe.
2-That something leaves open a lot of options about the creation etc…

Can a being be its own cause. Of course not. “Nothing” is a difficult, maybe even impossible concept to imagine. Nothing is less than a void because a void has walls around it which are something. If there was nothing there is an infinite table rosa. There is no universe, no atoms, no ether…if there is nothing, there is no God because there is nothing.

But, as Descartes points out, there is something, the most elemental of all is I. If there is an I, there is an infinite amount of ‘something’. The mystery is the simplicity of it. What is this ‘something’? Gosh, I don’t know. All I know is there it is because here I am. I think one of the main faults of western philosophy is the concept of causality. The alternative to causality is ‘being’ (but not in a Heidegger sense). God exists. He doesn’t exist ‘forever’, because time is a construct not identifiable with his being. God exists, and he is neither caused, nor ‘causer’, in the sense of an ultimate ‘CREATER’. The term ‘creater’ does not apply because causality is not a function of God. ‘Causality’ is a human conception of philosophy that does not apply to reality because ultimately, there is no causal functions.
 
God exists, and he is neither caused, nor ‘causer’, in the sense of an ultimate ‘CREATER’. The term ‘creater’ does not apply because causality is not a function of God. ‘Causality’ is a human conception of philosophy that does not apply to reality because ultimately, there is no causal functions.
Are you saying that God is not creator?

In our physical universe there is causation. It is demonstrated empirically over and over. An argument for God is as First Cause - are you saying that this is not so?

In Catholicism, God as creator is an essential belief!
 
1-There is another ‘something’ of which we are totally unfamiliar with that God used to create this universe.
2-That something leaves open a lot of options about the creation etc…
I reject premise one. Creation was not a movement. It was just brought into being.
 
I reject premise one. Creation was not a movement. It was just brought into being.
Technically it was/is a “state”, neither created nor changeable, and typically called “God, the Father”.
 
Are you saying that God is not creator?

In our physical universe there is causation. It is demonstrated empirically over and over. An argument for God is as First Cause - are you saying that this is not so?

In Catholicism, God as creator is an essential belief!
Both yes, and no. A quick aside…when I took undergrad biology I discussed with my instructor why organic life as we know it violated entropy (s, s is defined as s=lnW),or as it is more popularly known, the tendency in nature for a closed system to move from an orderly state to a disorderly state. Dr. G-K said in a closed system as large as the known universe there M, Multiplicity Factor, would contain within it isolated instances where an outside energy force (the Sun) could add energy into another sub-closed system (the Earth/Solar System) and create temporary ‘bubbles’ of orderliness. Temporary being a subjective term, and that even the Earth and the Solar System will go the way of the Dumbbell Nebulae. (Dr. G-K was an avowed atheist).

Using similar logic, Causation is permitted (by God) in the isolated Universe of his ‘creation’. The principle of Causation is allowed so that man may understand consequences for sin.

On the other hand, it is illogical, in my opinion, for there to be an Ultimate First Cause, or for that matter, any catholic causative laws extent throughout existence, just as it is a violation of s as a law.

I will frankly admit it is extremely difficult to conceptualize an Existence without causation or a First Cause. I have always felt this to be the case since I began reading a Popular Science article some 30 years ago. I have over the years discovered to my pleasure there are whole reams of people who feel as I do (not that I am subscribing to argumentum ad populum mind you) and do not feel quite as isolated in my thinking.
 
Technically it was/is a “state”, neither created nor changeable, and typically called “God, the Father”.
This sounds almost pantheist. I do not subscribe to Pantheism. I feel there is a ‘something’, daoistically speaking, of which we are all part of and simultaneously not part of. Our Being was created of God, but is separate from His Being, separate from this Universe, and yet fully engaged with and in both. Please accept my apologies if I make an incorrect inference.
 
Found this on a Catholic site. I highly doubt premis two is incorrect, because even thought changes are caused by forces, it is not its own cause. non-being cannot cause its movement to being because it doesn’t exist. Likewise something lesser cannot move something to somthing greater because the latter is not able to produce that effect.

I really think the person who made this video is getting lost in mechanistic physics and is not seeing the big picture.
The video started out very badly. It was immediately evident that he didn’t understand what Aquinas meant by motion, even though it’s explicitly described in the Quinque viae.

GIGO
 
Both yes, and no. A quick aside…when I took undergrad biology I discussed with my instructor why organic life as we know it violated entropy (s, s is defined as s=lnW),or as it is more popularly known, the tendency in nature for a closed system to move from an orderly state to a disorderly state. Dr. G-K said in a closed system as large as the known universe there M, Multiplicity Factor, would contain within it isolated instances where an outside energy force (the Sun) could add energy into another sub-closed system (the Earth/Solar System) and create temporary ‘bubbles’ of orderliness. Temporary being a subjective term, and that even the Earth and the Solar System will go the way of the Dumbbell Nebulae. (Dr. G-K was an avowed atheist).

Using similar logic, Causation is permitted (by God) in the isolated Universe of his ‘creation’. The principle of Causation is allowed so that man may understand consequences for sin.

On the other hand, it is illogical, in my opinion, for there to be an Ultimate First Cause, or for that matter, any catholic causative laws extent throughout existence, just as it is a violation of s as a law.

I will frankly admit it is extremely difficult to conceptualize an Existence without causation or a First Cause. I have always felt this to be the case since I began reading a Popular Science article some 30 years ago. I have over the years discovered to my pleasure there are whole reams of people who feel as I do (not that I am subscribing to argumentum ad populum mind you) and do not feel quite as isolated in my thinking.
I think you misunderstand “First Cause” (as do most). It had nothing to do with the first moment in time. Time is infinite in both directions, yet this does not effect the actual First Cause argument at all. It is just a mix up in the language.
 
I think you misunderstand “First Cause” (as do most). It had nothing to do with the first moment in time. Time is infinite in both directions, yet this does not effect the actual First Cause argument at all. It is just a mix up in the language.
Yes, I understand the cosmological, ‘first cause’, cosmogeny (be it Hindu, Taoist, Greek, Babylonian…blah blah blah). I reject the cosmological argument because causality is itself a temporary illusion created by God.

Here, I address your arguments one-by-one.
This is neither an issue of physics nor of observation, but of logic. If you wish to toss out logic, then both physics and observation become irrelevant.

I would agree with this only to the point that physics and observation are illusory to this existence and can never give an adequate explanation of sein.

No object can be its own cause for the following logical reasoning regardless of observed physical laws;

Existence is defined (in reality with or without dictionary authority) by the property of affect. This is to say that an object exists if and only if it has the property of affect. If it cannot affect anything, then it does not exist. If it can affect something then it does exist.

Pardon the crudity of the argument, but you are basically saying that if a bear does doo doo in the woods, and nobody is there to smell it, it didn’t happen. Please, I have always found this argument so obviously flawed that it causes me to immediately ignore subsequent remarks as flawed. Each one of us is a being in our own universe tied into to this ‘network’. If we are not tied into this ‘network’ we will still exist, we just will not be able to interact with it.

This definition is acceptable in both logos and pathos modes in that even if something did exist in some other regard, if it truly had no potential to affect anything whatsoever, then why would anyone care and there could be no negative consequence for declaring its non-existence.

Are you serious? If me as my ‘sein’ chose not to interact with this existence and not ‘affect anything whatsoever’ a number of consequences would occur. 1) no one would know of me (as ‘sein’) to care, and 2) there would be no consequence, negative or positive, because the ‘anyone’ would not know of my existence to have any opinion on it. Thus, the multitude of ‘sein’ we do not know of, yet still exist, truly do not care whether or not I declare it ‘non-existent’. 3) In terms of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, my hypothetical ‘sein’s’ delta x is essentially infinite, meaning the observable effect is non-existent. Hence not only will the ‘anyone’ not be able to observe my ‘sein’, because my ‘sein’ would not be aware of the observation because the observation would not have caused the momentum to decrease at all. What you are in essence stating is that you are God because it is your ability to ‘observe’ that creates. I submit I exist whether you observe me or not.

Additionally the ability to have “affect” is the ability to cause change of a state or situation.
Cause is, by definition, that which affected the effect or changed state.

You do not state your religious preference, so I can say the following only in terms of the consequence of your assertion. If a ‘sein’ only exists if it has an observable cause, correct me if I am wrong, then God does not exist because we cannot observe ‘Him’.

With this in mind, for anything to cause anything, it must first exist with that potential to affect. Thus for something to cause itself it must exist before it exists.

Again, this argument falls apart if the ‘law of causality’ is an illusion.

But this proposal presents a serious and even deadly concept. What it proposes is that at anytime and any place, any existence and its affect can instantly appear without cause.

Ahhhh, that is correct. Furthermore, that existence can cease to exist without notice as well.

This leaves the mind with no means of assisting the body in the pursuit of life. No probability can be ascertained. No decision can be made. Even the voice of a prophet could not be relied upon. And no credit or guilt to be assigned to any action.

I do not see how you draw that conclusion.

All of Science would be null and void along with all religions and all philosophies. Fore this one idea proposes that existence, what is real, is entirely dependent upon what is non-existence and not real - fantasy.

Unless your (or the) concept of causality is false.

Cause and effect are used by the mind to assess preferred from un-preferred and cannot be dismissed without utterly destroying the mind and thus the body it is purposed to assist.

Remove the time between cause and effect and all existence would instantly vanish. Although it is proposed that all things change, how fast they change is critically significant.

That is true, in the existence we find ourselves. As Paul says, we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
 
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