An Observation

[Fair_Lady]

I’ve been researching Catholicism because my granddaughter goes to a Catholic school and I am interested in finding out what she is learning.

One observation I’m making is that it is common for Catholics to pray to Mary to ask her to pray for them. Then the praise report comes in. Who gets the credit for answered prayers? Mary. There isn’t even an acknowledgment of God’s involvement in what He has done.

Comments from grateful recipients of answered prayer often include the notion that Mary’s prayers are more effective than the recipient going directly to God with their prayers. I believe it is wrong to give the credit to Mary. God is the One who provides every one of His mercies and graces. ALL glory should be directed to Him.

Aside from the fact that I don’t believe Mary should be prayed to in the first place, I find it extremely offensive to give her the praise for what transpires.

 

[JustaServant]

Makes no sense. Of course it is God who answers prayer.
Family members and friends pray with and for one another, because we are the family of God. If we give praise for the fact that they pray for us, why not the Blessed Mother?
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant. We and they who have gone before us are part of the LIVING family of God.
To love Jesus is to also love His mother.

 

[Lizziebel]

It’s true that God alone should receive the credit, glory, and honor for prayers answered. But a thank you to those who prayed with us and for us is surely appreciated .

It is said in the Bible that the prayer of one who is righteous availeth much. How much, then, would the prayers of Mary for and with us avail! She is the ultimate example of saying yes and doing the Father’s will, bringing into the world our Lord and Savior.

And, she’s Jesus’ mom. Would she not have significant influence with her precious son if she intercedes with Him for us?

 

[fbl9]

I’ve been researching Catholicism because my granddaughter goes to a Catholic school and I am interested in finding out what she is learning.

One observation I’m making is that it is common for Catholics to pray to Mary to ask her to pray for them. Then the praise report comes in. Who gets the credit for answered prayers? Mary. There isn’t even an acknowledgment of God’s involvement in what He has done.

Comments from grateful recipients of answered prayer often include the notion that Mary’s prayers are more effective than the recipient going directly to God with their prayers. I believe it is wrong to give the credit to Mary. God is the One who provides every one of His mercies and graces. ALL glory should be directed to Him.

Aside from the fact that I don’t believe Mary should be prayed to in the first place, I find it extremely offensive to give her the praise for what transpires.

Hail Mary ,full of grace the Lord is with thee. Bleesed are thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb JESUS,Holy Mary mother of GOD,pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.Where oh where in this prayer do you find anything that points away from from God the Son and God the Father?

 

[ljubim]

I’ve been researching Catholicism because my granddaughter goes to a Catholic school and I am interested in finding out what she is learning.

One observation I’m making is that it is common for Catholics to pray to Mary to ask her to pray for them. Then the praise report comes in. Who gets the credit for answered prayers? Mary. There isn’t even an acknowledgment of God’s involvement in what He has done.

Comments from grateful recipients of answered prayer often include the notion that Mary’s prayers are more effective than the recipient going directly to God with their prayers. I believe it is wrong to give the credit to Mary. God is the One who provides every one of His mercies and graces. ALL glory should be directed to Him.

Aside from the fact that I don’t believe Mary should be prayed to in the first place, I find it extremely offensive to give her the praise for what transpires.

Offensive? Give me a break.

Do you not ask others to pray for you? They are a part of the Body of Christ and so can do this. It is so much more beneficial for people, not just Christians on earth but those actually WITH God, to pray for us to Him, because as you see when more people are praying for you that God makes things better. (Basically I’m saying that debunking praying for the intercession of saints, and turning around and asking others to pray for you, is hypocrisy.)

We ask for saints to pray for us because of their closer relationship with God than our own (obviously, being in heaven.) And one with perhaps the most special relationship with Christ is His own mother. Why else would Christ’s very first miracle, which He wasn’t nearly ready to do, was brought about by His mother asking/telling Him to - do whatever he tells you to. She is a very important person to Our Lord, and so her voice is FAR more important to Him… for example if there’s something we’re asking for in prayer, that God doesn’t want to give us for any reason, and so Mary’s intercession might just tip Him over the edge and say, oh, ok Mom like at Cana!

So on this note… why can’t Mary take credit for tippin God over the edge as I said before? I mean of course God granted our prayers, but Mary helped convince Him to.

IMHO people who don’t go for saints’ intercession are missing out on a huge aspect of Christianity.

PS: Church teaching is biblical + tradition. So as for the biblical part:
defendingthebride.com/ma3/only9.html
and here’s tradition:
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

and here’s a really pathetic attempt of trying to biblically debunk this(for your entertainment):carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/praying-saints-biblicalNote how they quote only ONE paragraph of the Bible, and set it up as praying TO the saints. Only one paragraph… hmm, is there something they’re trying to stop you from seeing?

The true Church that Our Lord established find its fullness in the Catholic Church. To deny this is setting you up for dissapointment… the CC is more biblical than any of those supposed “bible churches” out there. You know how people hate that Catholics trust on what their priests/bishops/popes say about the bible? And yet every Sunday they turn around and listen to what ONE person has to say about it… their reverend. And they trust him completely. A lot of objections against the CC come from hypocrisy. I hope you enjoy looking into the Church’s teaching.

God Bless,
Ljubim

 

[dcrowmik]

Aside from the fact that I don’t believe Mary should be prayed to in the first place…

Answer yourself this question – have you ever asked friends, realtives, etc. to pray to God for you or for something or other, or have you ever prayed to God on behalf of someone else? I’ll bet you have. Well, it’s no different than asking Mary or someone else in Heaven to pray to God for you.

Make sense?

 

[JustaServant]

God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:
1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:
Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15** I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."**

2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “**This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” **15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

 

[PadraigPearce]

The important thing to remember is that we’re not asking Mary to do anything on her own. We look at Mary as having found favour with God through her absolute humility and rejection of her own desires. Of all the people who have ever lived she is the one who most exemplifies what a human being should aspire to be, (other than Jesus of course) for her willingness to die to herself and align her own will with that of God.
Saint Louis de Montfort said Every time we say “Mary” she says “God”. I really like that saying, because it shows how Mary knows she is absolutely nothing in comparison with God’s greatness.

 

[JustaServant]

And, it shoud be added that she is Queen of Heaven.
In the ancient world, because the king had many brides, a woman did not receive the title of queen until her son took the throne. The queen was not married to the king, because there were far too many wives vying for such a title. And they couldn’t all be called queen. The position of queen was held by the king’s mother. She was known as the queen mother. If Mary’s Son has become the King of Kings (of both heaven and earth) then the Mother has become the Queen of heaven and earth
Pope Pius XII stated, “Mary is Queen by grace, by divine relationship, by right of conquest and by singular election. And her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.”
So, we should give praise that the Blessed Mother has prayed for our requests.

 

[VociMike]

I’ve been researching Catholicism because my granddaughter goes to a Catholic school and I am interested in finding out what she is learning.

One observation I’m making is that it is common for Catholics to pray to Mary to ask her to pray for them. Then the praise report comes in. Who gets the credit for answered prayers? Mary. There isn’t even an acknowledgment of God’s involvement in what He has done.

You say this is “common” and yet I don’t see Catholics behaving in such a manner (not even acknowledging God’s involvement ). So you’ll have to define in what sense it is “common”.

Aside from the fact that I don’t believe Mary should be prayed to in the first place, I find it extremely offensive to give her the praise for what transpires.

And that attitude is no doubt what colors your view as to what is actually going on.

I’ll just add that in a Church with over a billion members, one can and will find people in error. When such people are observed in their error, they should be corrected. But if you want to know what the Church teaches, don’t observe those in error, go straight to the teachings of the Church. And the teachings of the Church are very clear on the matter of prayer to saints.

 

[Major_Tom]

And, she’s Jesus’ mom. Would she not have significant influence with her precious son if she intercedes with Him for us?

The whole idea of praying to saints (or Mary) for intercession always puzzled me in my Catholic school years. There seemed to be a disconnect. Isn’t God omniscient? And if God did change his mind based on (name removed by moderator)ut from someone, that suggests that he was wrong with his first judgement.

When my father died, I found myself praying, but mostly for strength and wisdom for me and my family in trying to cope with the loss. I never felt like I had to pray for my dad: Didn’t God already know him, infinitely more closely than I ever did? If his salvation was ever in doubt, what would I be able to add that God didn’t already know?

I’m sorry, this line of reasonin on intercession seems rhetorically very weak to me.

 

[VociMike]

The whole idea of praying to saints (or Mary) for intercession always puzzled me in my Catholic school years. There seemed to be a disconnect. Isn’t God omniscient? And if God did change his mind based on (name removed by moderator)ut from someone, that suggests that he was wrong with his first judgement.

When my father died, I found myself praying, but mostly for strength and wisdom for me and my family in trying to cope with the loss. I never felt like I had to pray for my dad: Didn’t God already know him, infinitely more closely than I ever did? If his salvation was ever in doubt, what would I be able to add that God didn’t already know?

I’m sorry, this line of reasonin on intercession seems rhetorically very weak to me.

It makes sense if you view it in the larger context of why does God call on us to do anything he could do himself (which is, of course, everything).

God calls on us to pray for each other, to bring the gospel, to be channels of his grace, to ease the suffering of others, and in the case of the priest, to forgive sins and to make his one sacrifice re-present, because these are all good things to do, and God shares with us all that is good and within our capability.

Does a father need his children to help him paint the fence? Of course not, and he will probably spend more time repainting it than if he had done it himself, but he shares the pleasure and the accomplishment of good with his children because he loves them, and love demands sharing. In the same way, God, being the perfect loving Father, shares all which is good that he can with us.

Praying to saints, and praying for others, can only be understood in this light. God needs neither, but both are instances of his children helping each other, giving of themselves for one another, and this is why he calls on us to do it.

 

[YADA]

I’ve been researching Catholicism because my granddaughter goes to a Catholic school and I am interested in finding out what she is learning.

One observation I’m making is that it is common for Catholics to pray to Mary to ask her to pray for them. Then the praise report comes in. Who gets the credit for answered prayers? Mary. There isn’t even an acknowledgment of God’s involvement in what He has done.

You can’t know that one gives no credit or acknowldgement to God … and thanking God’s Mother for her prayers and intersession with her Son is certainly a laudable action … I thank many people for their prayers but I always know that God is the person who answers those prayers … God [Father, Son and holy Spirit] is the source and summit of the Christian Life and we are made heirs with Christ through His Incarnation - becoming the God-Man … it seems like you want to cut a piece of the puzzle and then complain that you don’t find the whole picture

Comments from grateful recipients of answered prayer often include the notion that Mary’s prayers are more effective than the recipient going directly to God with their prayers. I believe it is wrong to give the credit to Mary. God is the One who provides every one of His mercies and graces. ALL glory should be directed to Him.

We can always go directly to God and many times do … I always seek God but when a friend prays with me and for me I am always thankful … whether they offer their prayers at my request or independently … We are a “communion of saints” … believers that come together to strengthen each other … that strengthening takes many forms, prayer is perhaps the easiest but it is also the most efficatious IMHO … if I need to make a martgage payment … a friend may not have the financial means to assist but they can pray for me … and God’s blessings inmeasurable … - if you get my point in God all things are possible …

Aside from the fact that I don’t believe Mary should be prayed to in the first place, I find it extremely offensive to give her the praise for what transpires.

I believe you have equated the meaning of ‘pray’ with ‘worship’ … to pray simply means to ‘ask’ … and while we may not use the word ‘pray’ interchangably with ask in this day and age … that is simply what it means …

Llanguage in the vernacular is very fliud … less so in many areas: the Law, Science and Religion are three easily understood areas …

Lawyers still offer ‘pleadings’ in court … a prayer [ask] to the Judge …

in the 1800’s ‘gay’ meant happy … in the1890’s through 1920’s ‘gay’ was a associated with flappers, speakeasy’s and a culture that has lost its puritan roots … todsy ‘gay’ has an entirely different connotatio … but in truth when I say my grandaughter is a gay child because she sings and laughs and dances … she is - in fact - just a happy little girl who will soon be turning four … with no sexuallity implied …

I think you should investigate what your grandcild is learning with an open mind and less bias … and look to official church documents not haphazard conversations with individuals who speak without understanding your biases and the ‘gotcha’ mentality I believe is present [forgive me if I am worng] in your post … Becuase I bet if you asked any Catholic whether it was God who ultimately is the one who answers prayers they would say “Asolutely” and if you asked them if Mary was a ‘God’ or of they worshiped Mary as they do Jesus - they would tell you “No way - never”

 

[Major_Tom]

It makes sense if you view it in the larger context of why does God call on us to do anything he could do himself (which is, of course, everything).

Praying to saints, and praying for others, can only be understood in this light. God needs neither, but both are instances of his children helping each other, giving of themselves for one another, and this is why he calls on us to do it.

Thank you for your response. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but that reasoning still doesn’t make sense. I have children, so I appreciate your analogy. But God WANTING his children to act a certain way does not logically lead to saying, ‘God will act upon their request’.

If I die, and have few friends, etc., I may have no one praying/asking God for mercy on my soul. A popular person will have many such requests. I feel to see how this doesn’t reduce the praying/asking to a popularity contest. If no prays for me, doesn’t God judge me just the same? Again, I’m not trying to be obstinate, but your response doesn’t answer the question for me. It rings of ‘Well, it can’t hurt to ask, can’t it?’, and frankly that seems, if anything, superstitious.

 

[StrawberryJam]

And, she’s Jesus’ mom. Would she not have significant influence with her precious son if she intercedes with Him for us?

The whole idea of praying to saints (or Mary) for intercession always puzzled me in my Catholic school years. There seemed to be a disconnect. Isn’t God omniscient? And if God did change his mind based on (name removed by moderator)ut from someone, that suggests that he was wrong with his first judgement.

When my father died, I found myself praying, but mostly for strength and wisdom for me and my family in trying to cope with the loss. I never felt like I had to pray for my dad: Didn’t God already know him, infinitely more closely than I ever did? If his salvation was ever in doubt, what would I be able to add that God didn’t already know?

I’m sorry, this line of reasonin on intercession seems rhetorically very weak to me.

I guess it depends on what catholics feel intercession is/can be.

You may not have felt that you needed to pray for your father’s salvation in the christian viewpoint of it, but your being his son and simply wanting to grieve the loss of your father is a prayer itself I think. The Trinity is a closeness, that in human life can not be perfectly duplicated, but can be seen in marriage and children I think.

So, wondering if prayers for your father would have a difference or not, is really not the challenge.Wondering if he prays for you right now, would be an interesting thought though.

 

[VociMike]

Thank you for your response. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but that reasoning still doesn’t make sense. I have children, so I appreciate your analogy. But God WANTING his children to act a certain way does not logically lead to saying, ‘God will act upon their request’.

God will do what is best regardless of what we pray or don’t pray.

If I die, and have few friends, etc., I may have no one praying/asking God for mercy on my soul. A popular person will have many such requests. I feel to see how this doesn’t reduce the praying/asking to a popularity contest. If no prays for me, doesn’t God judge me just the same? Again, I’m not trying to be obstinate, but your response doesn’t answer the question for me. It rings of ‘Well, it can’t hurt to ask, can’t it?’, and frankly that seems, if anything, superstitious.

Now really, I never said or suggested any such thing. What I said was that God invites us to join with him in the good that he does. Since nothing we do will cause God to do other than that which is best, it follows that the good that comes from prayer is something different than getting God to act “better” than he would otherwise. That something different is that prayer sanctifies the one who prays, and can also sanctify the one being prayed for, if that person knows others are making the effort to pray for them. But if somebody has nobody to pray for them (which is in fact impossible, since the Church prays for all, and then there are the saints in heaven who can also pray for all), God will present other ways for that person to become sanctified.

In short, prayer does not change God, it changes us.

 

[Fair_Lady]

I believe you have equated the meaning of ‘pray’ with ‘worship’ … to pray simply means to ‘ask’ … and while we may not use the word ‘pray’ interchangably with ask in this day and age … that is simply what it means …

if you asked them if Mary was a ‘God’ or of they worshiped Mary as they do Jesus - they would tell you “No way - never”

I have also seen devotions to Mary on television. They would have been beautiful worship services had their focus been on Jesus. Instead, Mary was the object of their adoration. I have often heard it said that there is no worship of Mary, but actions speak louder than words.

 

[JustaServant]

I have also seen devotions to Mary on television. They would have been beautiful worship services had their focus been on Jesus. Instead, Mary was the object of their adoration. I have often heard it said that there is no worship of Mary, but actions speak louder than words.

catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

 

[fix]

I have also seen devotions to Mary on television. They would have been beautiful worship services had their focus been on Jesus. Instead, Mary was the object of their adoration. I have often heard it said that there is no worship of Mary, but actions speak louder than words.

Her will is united to His will.

You may find it helpful to read about Mary’s role:

**[

967

](http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3EpenWindow%28%27cr/967.htm%27%29**

By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516

 

[prodigal-sun]

I have also seen devotions to Mary on television. They would have been beautiful worship services had their focus been on Jesus. Instead, Mary was the object of their adoration. I have often heard it said that there is no worship of Mary, but actions speak louder than words.

So in other words… No matter what anyone else has tried to explain to you about this issue, you choose to ignore what we believe and judge our herats & minds on your misunderstandings of our actions.

Thank you so much!

P.S. So much for your premise of coming here to try to understand what your children are being taught.

Peace!