SumEns,
thanks, I think I understand what you mean now.
What counts is our inner attitudeā¦ God knows the heart. Right?
Kathrin
Right. Glad I could be of service I would hope people would still be good, because they care about each other??!
Great reply. This should have ended the discussion IMHO.First, you have a right to seek answers and these are very good questions.
Second, hell is not āinfiniteā punishment; Itās āeternalā punishment. āInfiniteā would imply that it has no beginning and no end, but that is obviously not the case. No soul begins in hell - not even satan himself; There is a moment at which this punishment becomes reality. When something has a beginning, but continues without end, that is āeternal.ā That might be splitting hairs, but please forgive me. Weāre trained to do that in Philosophy.
Third, since God is defined as āall-knowing,ā it would help to reflect on what āknowledgeā is. In Epistemology, the study of knowledge and belief, it is theorized that certain criteria must be met in order for something to be āknown.ā The primay criteria is that it must, in fact, be true. This would rule out predictions or probabilities, such as those made by meteorologists because the *actual *state of the weather is not known until it happens. Predictions and probabilities - no matter how likely - arenāt true in the moment and, therefore, not knowledge.
The real question then becomes: āhow does God know what weāre going to do?ā As an omniscient, omnipresent Being, God *knows *what youāre going to do in ten minutes. How does God know this? He not only exists in this moment, but He exists outside of time. He knows in this moment what youāre going to do in ten minutes because, simultaneously existing outside of time, God has already seen you make that choice.
Now, to answer your question more directly, human souls are eternal, not infinite; There was a time when you and I did not exist - bodily, spiritual, and otherwise. Thus, prior to our creation, God cannot* know* what weāre going to choose because there havenāt been any choices made by us; we donāt yet exist. Prior to our existence, we are mere probability, not actuality, and probabilities, regardless of how certain and well calculated, arenāt knowledge. Every single human being, prior to their creation, has the possibility of living eternally in the full presence of God in heaven. Every single one. Their failure to achieve this is a product of their own choice, not Godās. God created them with every grace available and with *every possibility *of making it to heaven. But, God does not *know *the end result until we *actually *make that choice, when it becomes a *true *state of affairs. *Only then *can it be known, by definition.
Although, I must qualify this post by saying I donāt know this to be true for certain. When discussing infinity and the nature of God outside of time, no mortal, finite human being can truly comprehend its reality. This is theological speculation, at best.
Hope this helps!
There are three assumptions that are contained in this post - all of which are false:
weāve answered you. specifically. i told you what separates man from God. serious grave sin, and the willingness to commit it and not do anything to stop it or clean up their lives and live a life pleasing to God. people who are not in control of their faculties and commit a serious sin cannot be held accountable for their actions since they did not know it was wrong in the first place. people who are aware it is wrong and commit serious sin on the other hand are accountable to God for their actions and will be judged accordingly. period. therefore i do not know why you cannot see the simplicity of this fact. God is just, and He has the right to judge us all. He is also merciful, and He doesnāt want anyone to go to hell. if man choses to separate himself willfully from God and does not clean up his life and repent then he suffers the consequences and rightfully so.
these are extremely good points. but for the OP, consider this also as to WHY we are inclined to sin at all:
thank you for the links, Traditional Catholic. But Iām confused? Are you implying that I am misunderstanding what mortal sin is? I mean, Iāve known the stuff you gave in those links for many years now, thanks to the CCC and CA resources that have helped me greatly understand the faith.
not meant for you. it is meant for the original poster. i said, if youād notice, good points, then went on to say in my post āfor the opā. please re read my post.
The problem with this philosophical answer lies in Godās assumed omnibenovolence. Certainly we could say that Godās omniscience/omnipotence would allow him to have the ācomputing powerā to see all possible/probable ends to a personās life. This being the case, his omnibenovolence and omnipotence would then necessarily require him to prevent those outcomes.
I struggled with this too, and even Darwin says this is the strongest argument against Theism. It is a difficult thing to understand but the simple answer is free will. You also have a major fallacy in your question, no one is predestined to Hell and everyone has access to the truth and to salvation. It is only by ones own will that they can refuse the gift of salvation and choose damnation instead. All the factors you mention can be used as excuses, but all people must ultimately take responsibility for themselves. The Devil made me do it will never be a sufficient excuse simply because it is a lie. The Devil can not make you sin. Every single person of all personality types and situations throughout history have been/are offered grace from God to lead them to salvation through Christ. Note that this does not necessarily mean that they have to be full fledged card carrying members of the Catholic Church or to have even heard of the name Jesus. Jesus is the Logos and can be known in other ways as well. This does not mean that people should not be Catholic and anyone who understands what the Church is and knowingly refuses her is knowingly refusing Christ himself. The Church offers the normative easiest most direct path to Christ with her sacraments and divine protection from error and if you are Catholic you should thank God everyday for leading you to his Church and the grace and protection she provides us in this life.
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [g] **18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a mere human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " [h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for disposal of refuse?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathāprepared for destruction?** 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for gloryā 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," *
26 and,
"In the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'children of the living God.' " [j]
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality." [k]
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah." [l]oh, OK, Iām sorry TraditionalCath! Iām not reading carefully enough! Thanks for the clarification, and blessings to you!