An open question for Lutherans

[EvangelCatholic]

I had to read sentence two a couple times because I thought you meant If the Lutherans were going to unite with someone, the Eastern Church would seem the most logical option. (Then to complicate things further, I thought that "but"was supposed to be “because”.) Do you have any thought on that?

Sorry for the confusion. Lutherans are part of the Western Church and view Rome as our Mother though many Lutherans would not ever say that [pride]. Because of the extraordinary progress in Dialogue and Declaration, my feeling is that Lutherans would be the first to be incorporated into the Catholic Church, as a sister communion. The schism between the West and Eastern Church seems firmly set in place unfortunately because I agree with Jon that if Orthodox and Catholic reunited it would likely pull in Lutherans and Anglicans as well.

 

[ptisme]

Confessional Lutherans still believe the office of the pope is the antichrist. But its conditional on the pope persecuting Christians (which he stopped doing) and** teaching falsely (which he hasn’t stopped doing)**. If he did, we Lutherans would presumably cease believing he is the antichrist.

Probably shouldn’t do this but… Can you give some examples of the bolded please?

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Probably shouldn’t do this but… Can you give some examples of the bolded please?

Sure

Universal immediate jurisdiction of the pope.
Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.
*

Anathema of Faith Alone
Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.
*

 

[Stilldreamn]

I hate to rain on this picnic (or Love Feast! ) but has anyone considered some practical matters that can inhibit reunification - like what to do with the invalid marriages? I am speaking here of Lutherans who have repented of their divorces and later remarried. Much like with the EO, it has been handled as a matter of economia but this certainly conflicts with Catholic doctrine and practice.

 

[Peter_J]

Sorry for the confusion. Lutherans are part of the Western Church and view Rome as our Mother though many Lutherans would not ever say that [pride]. Because of the extraordinary progress in Dialogue and Declaration, my feeling is that Lutherans would be the first to be incorporated into the Catholic Church, as a sister communion. The schism between the West and Eastern Church seems firmly set in place unfortunately because I agree with Jon that if Orthodox and Catholic reunited it would likely pull in Lutherans and Anglicans as well.

I’ve spoken before about how the Orthodox can be rather anti-western (this may have come up on a recent thread … or perhaps not, I don’t recall at the moment) but I think I would be remiss if I didn’t also say that “westerners” can also be rather anti-Orthodox.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I’ve spoken before about how the Orthodox can be rather anti-western (this may have come up on a recent thread … or perhaps not, I don’t recall at the moment) but I think I would be remiss if I didn’t also say that “westerners” can also be rather anti-Orthodox.

But Catholics welcome Orthodox to communion/ sacraments. So do Lutherans.

 

[Peter_J]

I hate to rain on this picnic (or Love Feast! ) but has anyone considered some practical matters that can inhibit reunification - like what to do with the invalid marriages? I am speaking here of Lutherans who have repented of their divorces and later remarried. Much like with the EO, it has been handled as a matter of economia but this certainly conflicts with Catholic doctrine and practice.

Hence why it’s a “Love Feast” not a “Like Feast”, much less an “Agree Feast”.

Duh.

 

[Peter_J]

 

[Peter_J]

But Catholics welcome Orthodox to communion/ sacraments. So do Lutherans.

True.

 

[guanophore]

Hi Guanophore,

Not all Lutherans accept or place the same value in the entire Book of Concord compared to the Augsburg Confession. One CAF member from Norway points out that only the Augsburg Confession and Luther’s Catechism [aside from the ecumenical creeds and Holy Scripture] is required for priests to vow obedience at ordination, for example.

Luther hoped for and even expected that the bishops would ordain Lutheran pastors and became bitter over the rejection. But the abuses of Pope Leo X were seen by Lutherans within the context of reforming the Church; that is why the Sees in some Scandinavian countries were retained. Perhaps Apostolic Succession and the papacy would never have been an issue if Luther had lived in Sweden.

Does that answer your question?

It is very informative, thank you, but not exactly.

Lutherans accept the office of the papacy per the Augsburg Confession and in the Dialogue confirm our willingness to follow the Pope so long as the Gospel is upheld.

I was trying to see where the AC “confirm willingness to follow the Pope”.

 

[guanophore]

Sure

Universal immediate jurisdiction of the pope.
Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.
*

Do you disagree, then, with what has been cited in this thread from the dialogues that the Pope can Pastor the Church and serve as the visible sign of unity?

Anathema of Faith Alone
Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.
*

Do you disagree with what is wrtiten in the Joint Declaration?

Actually that canon seems to speak more to Calvin’s notion that people are regenerated apart from their own will.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Do you disagree, then, with what has been cited in this thread from the dialogues that the Pope can Pastor the Church and serve as the visible sign of unity?

Do you disagree with what is wrtiten in the Joint Declaration?

Actually that canon seems to speak more to Calvin’s notion that people are regenerated apart from their own will.

Do you disagree, then, with what has been cited in this thread from the dialogues that the Pope can Pastor the Church and serve as the visible sign of unity?

Yes. I disagree with that.

Do you disagree with what is wrtiten in the Joint Declaration?

Yes. I disagree with that as well.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

It is very informative, thank you, but not exactly.

I was trying to see where the AC “confirm willingness to follow the Pope”.

There’s language in “The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministries”
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm

1. Openness to a rightly exercised primacy is part of the Lutheran theological legacy. The Lutheran Reformers’ rejection of the papacy focused on “the concrete historical papacy as it confronted them in their day” rather than on the very idea of a universal ministry of unity.119 In Against the Papacy in Rome, Instituted by the Devil (1545), perhaps his sharpest writing against the papacy, Luther nevertheless affirms that the pope might have a primacy of “honor and superiority” and "of oversight over teachingand heresy in the church."120 This “conditional openness” to papal primacy is dependent upon a reformed papacy, subject to the gospel, that would not arbitrarily restrict Christian freedom.121

1. The Lutheran argument did not merely contest abuses, however; it also challenged the alleged jure divino character of the papacy. Philip Melanchthon added to his subscription to the Smalcald Articles that, if the pope “would allow the gospel,” the papacy’s “superiority over the bishops” could be granted jure humano.122 Historical criticism has significantly altered understandings of divine and human law and criteria for distinguishing them.123 Especially in relation to the papacy, but also in relation to other traditionally controversial questions relating to ministry, the categories of divine and human law need to be re-examined and placed in the context of ministry as service to the koinonia of salvation.

 

[guanophore]

Yes. I disagree with that.

Ok that is instructive. Does your view represent that common among WELS?

Yes. I disagree with that as well.

Do you believe that the office of Bishop is biblical and valid?

If so, do you believe in Apostolic Succession?

 

[guanophore]

There’s language in “The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministries”
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm

Thanks!

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Ok that is instructive. Does your view represent that common among WELS?

Do you believe that the office of Bishop is biblical and valid?

If so, do you believe in Apostolic Succession?

Ok that is instructive. Does your view represent that common among WELS?

I can speak for any other WELS person. But the general feeling amongst folks in the pews is pretty much one of indifference or slight hostility towards the Pope. We all agree with the confessions that the office of the Pope is the antichrist. Because of that, you won’t find much support for seeing the pope as any visible sign of unity. As for myself, I believe I am more friendly towards the RCC than the average WELS.

Do you believe that the office of Bishop is biblical and valid?

Yes. Although the forms of church government I hold to be adiaphora. Our synod is congregational. Lutherans come down on all sides of this issue. For me I don’t really care, when I was Catholic, the bishops were not much a source of contention when I was leaving. I do however prefer our modified congregational polity since I find it more consistent with the practice of the early church.

If so, do you believe in Apostolic Succession?

Yes. But I wouldn’t define it in the same way that RCs do.

 

[gcnuss]

I don’t know if I have ever referred to this or not, but I am a member of the Society of the Holy Trinity, a pan-Lutheran ministerium dedicated to, among other things, ecumenical outreach. The Rule of the Society includes the following:

Chapter VIII
Ecumenical Commitments

This Society, from its beginning, is committed to Lutheran unity. Our membership is drawn from any and all Lutheran church bodies, particularly in the United States and Canada.

We are aware that Western Christianity as a whole is in a crisis of faith and that there are movements and orders in other ecclesial traditions organized for the confessional and spiritual renewal of their churches (i.e. the churches of the Reformation as well as the church of Rome). We will make contact with these movements and orders and invite them to chapter retreats and special meetings.

At the same time, the Lutheran ecumenical vocation is the unfinished business of the sixteenth century Reformation. Together with our forebears at Augsburg in 1530, we long for that reunion of Christians in which the Gospel might have free course and for that unity for which Jesus prayed. (cf. John 17).

**Therefore, this ministerium is dedicated to the Lutheran vocation of reform of the Church and the Lutheran ecumenical destiny of reconciliation with the bishop and church of Rome.**

We support the pursuit of conversations with the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Prayers for Christian unity shall be a regular part of Society and Chapter retreats.

Note the bolded paragraph. This is something to which I fully subscribe. The on-going separation of Christians is not a good witness to the non-Christian world.

 

[Peter_J]

We support the pursuit of conversations with the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Alright,I’ll leave you and EvangleCatholic to duel it out.

 

[ptisme]

Sure

Universal immediate jurisdiction of the pope.
Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.
*

Anathema of Faith Alone
Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.
*

Well the pope is the head of the church here on earth. It is biblical, dating back to the Israelites having God’s chosen Kings in the old testament.

Justification by Faith alone is un-bibilical. Neither of these are false teachings.

 

[TarkanAttila]

House Harkonnen, when you say “faith alone”, do you mean belief alone, or docility alone? I.e, that simply believing what Jesus says, and not necessarily doing what He says, will save you? Or that you must not only consent to His ideas, but obey His instructions?

If by “faith alone” you mean “obedience alone”, I think you and us Catholics are on the same page. We only believe faith cannot really be faith without also being obedient and doing as God wishes.