An opinion of reciting the Our Father in this manner

[ProVobis]

Substantially changing the words of the prayer that Jesus directly gave to us in the gospels? No. Absolutely not.

Yes, but you’re translating into English, which means it’s more vulnerable to political correctness. Hard to stop that. Just saying.

 

[OraLabora]

If it’s inside the Mass, it’s wrong. If they sing it or pray it outside the Mass, that’s another matter.

Vespers is part of the Liturgy of the Church. The words of the Our Father in every breviary I have ever seen are spelled out exactly as they are to be recited, either in Latin or the vernacular. This prayer is flat out wrong and not in accordance with the rubrics for Ordinary of the Divine Office.

However:

Yeah. That’s wrong. Best tell their superior.

That would be utterly pointless. This is a Benedictine monastery, and nothing is done in a monastery that does not have the approval of the (in this case) abbess, or if it’s a priory, the prioress. You could try the bishop, but even he doesn’t have jurisdiction over the monastery.

It would have to go to Rome, which may or may not arrange a visitation.

Best solution is to look elsewhere for spiritual fulfillment, if this form of the Lord’s prayer is troubling to the OP. It would be to me.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

I understand the rage, but please, your allegations against these sisters regarding Wicca is highly speculative, inflammatory, and sinful (gossip or speculation is bearing false witness).

I am not suggesting that these particular sisters are witches, but since the 1970’s, occult practices centered in feminist theology (of which various forms of Wicca are included) have been introduced in certain monasteries and particularly certain womens’ religious orders. Much of it is based on the idea that an understanding of God as “mother” would justify female ordination. I have personally experienced various manifestations of theological feminism being practiced by sisters in several convents. Unfortunately, this isn’t rage but fact.

 

[mdgspencer]

This is a red flag. If this is being done, there may be something wrong with their thinking in other things. If I were you I, would do research to look for an order or two that you are assured is loyal to the Church and after this do some traveling to talk with the orders you find. If you don’t have any money perhaps they would put you up there.
It could be very distressing to join and then find serious problems with an order.

 

[ProVobis]

Vespers is part of the Liturgy of the Church. The words of the Our Father in every breviary I have ever seen are spelled out exactly as they are to be recited, either in Latin or the vernacular. This prayer is flat out wrong and not in accordance with the rubrics for Ordinary of the Divine Office.

Thanks, Ora. That’s what I thought. My only hesitation was that I don’t know if they are even required to recite the LOTH. I know it would be wrong for the priests to use some other formula when they recite it. I would definitely say something if I heard a priest using “debts” instead of “trespasses,” for example, even if I agreed “debts” is a better translation.

 

[bben15]

The Lord’s Prayer came from the mouth of Jesus Himself. Deliberately corrupting Jesus’ prayer to the Father is both blasphemy and sacrilege. I suspect that some of these sisters have been dabbling in Wicca or some other type of goddess-worship.

Yes, I’m sure they practice Wicca right after Compline.

I understand your anger at this, but that is no reason to accuse these nuns of witchcraft. Witchcraft and altering a prayer are two completely different things.

 

[L_Marshall]

That would be utterly pointless. This is a Benedictine monastery, and nothing is done in a monastery that does not have the approval of the (in this case) abbess, or if it’s a priory, the prioress. You could try the bishop, but even he doesn’t have jurisdiction over the monastery.

I am more familiar with the Benedictine monks than the Nuns, but they have a very episcopal structure. In the male orders, an Abbot Primate acts as an ambassador between congregations and the Benedictine Confederation. His counterpart in the Nuns would be the person to contact.

That being said, it is a Bishop’s job to monitor liturgy in his own Diocese, if he says the latest Mass that can be said on a Sunday is at 8:00 p.m., then even a religious order operating within the Diocese is bound to obey it. Most religious orders are not exempt from episcopal visitation.

The final say in the matter would be the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. For the record, the prefect of this Congregation can be contacted at the following address:
His Eminence
João Cardinal Braz de Aviz
Prefect, Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life
Piazza Pio XII, 3
00193, Roma
Italia

---

[Edit:]Also for the record, it is the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments that is in charge of all liturgy (like Vespers). Their contact information is:
His Eminence
Antonio Cardinal Cañizares Llovera
Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship
Piazza Pio XII, 10
00120, Roma
Italia

 

[OraLabora]

I am more familiar with the Benedictine monks than the Nuns,

What’s not clear is whether this is a monastery of Benedictine nuns, or Benedictine sisters. I suspect the latter. The former are cloistered behind the Papal cloister and tend to be very conservative and orthodox. The latter not so much.

but they have a very episcopal structure. In the male orders, an Abbot Primate acts as an ambassador between congregations and the Benedictine Confederation. His counterpart in the Nuns would be the person to contact.

Yes I am aware, in fact I have met the Abbot Primate on several occasions, as I am on the consultation committee for the World Oblate’s Congress. However his jurisdiction is fairly limited. One would have more luck with the abbot president of the Congregation. Assuming that they even belong to a congregation. Not enough information to tell.

The point though is that complaining to the superior (either the abbess or prioress as is the case) would be a waste of time. And the bishop, has limited jurisdiction as well, though he might be able to refer the matter to the proper channels.

It would surprise me though, if the heterodox nature of this community weren’t already well known at least in the diocese, in which case simply avoiding it would be the best advice.

 

[Transformer]

Yes, but you’re translating into English, which means it’s more vulnerable to political correctness. Hard to stop that. Just saying.

The line between translating and altering might not be sharp, but adding “and Mother” to the prayer is a thousand miles from that blurry line. It is indisputably on the side of substantially changing the prayer.

 

[april32010]

If it’s inside the Mass, it’s wrong. If they sing it or pray it outside the Mass, that’s another matter.

still wrong

 

[lakotak]

I am not suggesting that these particular sisters are witches, but since the 1970’s, occult practices centered in feminist theology (of which various forms of Wicca are included) have been introduced in certain monasteries and particularly certain womens’ religious orders. Much of it is based on the idea that an understanding of God as “mother” would justify female ordination. I have personally experienced various manifestations of theological feminism being practiced by sisters in several convents. Unfortunately, this isn’t rage but fact.

As a matter of fact, I do recall that in my conversation with this sister about an hour before Vespers, she did refer to God as Mother, which I thought was kinda odd.

She also mentioned that they do not do the regular LOTH as the Benedictines have another one. She said they use the same structure, but not the same LOTH. As I do not know much about the this, as I am just starting to inquire, I really don’t know if this is a regular practice or not.

 

[ProVobis]

The line between translating and altering might not be sharp, but adding “and Mother” to the prayer is a thousand miles from that blurry line. It is indisputably on the side of substantially changing the prayer.

still wrong

It appears that way. Maybe it’s not the same thing, but would changing “trespasses” to “debts” or “hallowed” to “sanctified” also be considered “wrong” in a private prayer? Just asking.

As a matter of fact, I do recall that in my conversation with this sister about an hour before Vespers, she did refer to God as Mother, which I thought was kinda odd.

I once worked for a boss who proudly displayed a “Trust in God, She will provide” nameplate. No one complained.

 

[bben15]

As a matter of fact, I do recall that in my conversation with this sister about an hour before Vespers, she did refer to God as Mother, which I thought was kinda odd.

She also mentioned that they do not do the regular LOTH as the Benedictines have another one. She said they use the same structure, but not the same LOTH. As I do not know much about the this, as I am just starting to inquire, I really don’t know if this is a regular practice or not.

Benedictines have a different form of the Liturgy of the Hours. It is similar, but not the same, to your regular Liturgy of the Hours.

 

[lakotak]

Benedictines have a different form of the Liturgy of the Hours. It is similar, but not the same, to your regular Liturgy of the Hours.

Thanks, a least that was right.

 

[Spudbynight]

My understanding is that to refer to “Our Father and Mother” in the Lord’s Prayer is a heresy. I don’t use the term lightly in this instance.

It rejects the trinity - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. It replaces it with a “tetrarchy”

This is a grave matter and writing to the “Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life” strikes me as the prudent course of action.

 

[OraLabora]

As a matter of fact, I do recall that in my conversation with this sister about an hour before Vespers, she did refer to God as Mother, which I thought was kinda odd.

She also mentioned that they do not do the regular LOTH as the Benedictines have another one. She said they use the same structure, but not the same LOTH. As I do not know much about the this, as I am just starting to inquire, I really don’t know if this is a regular practice or not.

Yes, the Benedictines (and Cistercians among others) have their own LOTH. The basic structure is the same, but the psalm order and number of psalms is different. And this has been the case for 1500 years.

After Vatican II, new approved and licit schemas were devised. Currently there are four major ones but many communities or congregations have their own, approved through proper authority.

The four are:

Schema A, which is the same schema as described by St. Benedict in his rule; it is 1500 years old, and has a couple of new options available to distribute the psalms of Prime at other hours.

Schema B (which the abbey I’m associated with uses), first defined in the 1960s; it distributes the entire psalter over one week (with a couple of two-week options)

Schema C and D, dividing the psalter over 2 weeks.

Also some communities with extensive external apostolates may use the Roman LOTH (4-weeks), and we oblates (at least at our abbey) are free to use either the abbey’s schema or the LOTH.

 

[lakotak]

Yes, the Benedictines (and Cistercians among others) have their own LOTH. The basic structure is the same, but the psalm order and number of psalms is different. And this has been the case for 1500 years.

After Vatican II, new approved and licit schemas were devised. Currently there are four major ones but many communities or congregations have their own, approved through proper authority.

The four are:

Schema A, which is the same schema as described by St. Benedict in his rule; it is 1500 years old, and has a couple of new options available to distribute the psalms of Prime at other hours.

Schema B (which the abbey I’m associated with uses), first defined in the 1960s; it distributes the entire psalter over one week (with a couple of two-week options)

Schema C and D, dividing the psalter over 2 weeks.

Also some communities with extensive external apostolates may use the Roman LOTH (4-weeks), and we oblates (at least at our abbey) are free to use either the abbey’s schema or the LOTH.

Thanks for this information. This has been helpful.