An unbeliever thinks about a 'try belief' challenge/experiment

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Several CAF members have recently challenged me to ‘try belief’ and just act as if I were a believer in the hope that I would believe ‘by believing’. I thought about this, but found it hard to even start, given my unbelief. I decided to list all of those things I would have to accept before I could even contemplate such an experiment. Here they are, in order of magnitude, as I see them. That is, if I could accept 1) and 2) I might be able to begin religious practice, but only if I accepted all 15 could I begin to accept Catholicism. Note: I have put this in Non-Catholic religions because I thought it was a good fit, even though I don’t have a religion, although many on CAF say I do(!). And this is not a thread about atheism; it is a thread about Catholic belief.


  1. *]Observable things will be found, or have been found that only the existence of a god or gods can explain.
    *]Of all the possible gods in which people do, or have, believed, only one, the God of Christianity, exists.
    *]God created everything and everything depends on God’s existence for its continued being.
    *]God is all-powerful. God is all-loving. God is good.
    *]Before human beings existed, for billions of years on earth, and who knows how long on other planets, living things suffered great pain and distress despite their innocence and their creation by the all-powerful, all-loving, good God.
    *]There is something called ‘sin’ which consists of going against the will of God.
    *]Human beings, at some point in the past, sinned against God in a way that made all their offspring be born with ‘original sin’, which prevents them gaining eternal happiness
    *]God is not a single person, but three, but still one none-the-less, and one of these people was sent to earth to be born of a virgin, suffer and die in order to overcome original sin.
    *]Original sin, although overcome, still exists and is the cause of human pain and suffering.
    *] Humans, despite original sin being overcome, continue to sin. If they die in a state of serious sin, they condemn themselves to eternal pain and torment in a place created by the all-loving, all-powerful God.
    *]We know everything after (1) is true because scripture says so or, if it does not, the Church does, as God expresses his truth through these.
    *]All contradictions in scripture are either minor, or can be explained
    *]God can communicate with us through the Holy Spirit, and we can communicate with God, the angels, and saints through prayer
    *] Despite his omnipotence, God wants us to praise, worship and adore him, and will reward us if we do
    *]God is capable of intervening, and does intervene, in the material world.
 

  1. *]Observable things will be found, or have been found that only the existence of a god or gods can explain.

  1. I don’t think that will ever happen. I don’t see how God can ever be proven, nor am I sure He wants to. A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it 😃

    It’s a leap of faith. It’s called that for a reason.

    Besides, original sin is a later invention by St. Augustine. There was no calvinistic view of original sin before him and still it is only found in Western Christianity. You shouldn’t worry about it too much.
 
*]Observable things will be found, or have been found that only the existence of a god or gods can explain.
The fact that we are here and the universe exists is proof of, if not the christian god, then some form of god.

The universe could not have come into existence completely by itself. This is indirect proof of an “uncaused causer” or god which began the course of history as we know it.
 
The fact that we are here and the universe exists is proof of, if not the christian god, then some form of god.

The universe could not have come into existence completely by itself. This is indirect proof of an “uncaused causer” or god which began the course of history as we know it.
It is not proof, but an argument. Proof today means empirical evidence if I’m not mistaken.
 
It is not proof, but an argument. Proof today means empirical evidence if I’m not mistaken.
It’s a reasoned argument and it’s the closest you can get to actual proof. It’s up to an individual to take a leap of faith if they really wish to understand it.
 
lol, all i can do is facepalm at some of the attempts religious people use to try to get atheists to believe.
there is so much evidence for God! it boggles my mind that so many theists never present those arguments to atheists. its no wonder we have so many atheists out there! honestly i dont blame you.
hokomai, there is plenty of evidence out there for God, but what you atheists fail to understand is that this is not empirical evidence. the proof for God is logical and philosophical proof. where you atheists are mistaken is that you take a physicalist approach to reality.
you must realise that this premise is flawed. you try to reduce everything to the scientific method. (i would like to quote from a priest on yt) “but science doesnt have a word to say about beauty, or justice, …”
so if you want to be rational and objective you have to begin by dispensing with your scientist and physicalist notions.
so what kinds of evidence are there for God?
first is the argument from causes, everything needs a cause. prior to the big bang there was no matter, time or space, therefore its only logical to conclude that something outside of matter, time and space caused the universe. physicists have proven that the universe has a beginning, therefore we now are certain that the universe is not eternal and spontaneous generation has been disproven so we know that it didnt just pop into existence. so that only leaves us with one rational conclusion… a force outside of matter, time, and space caused the universe. in other words God.
there are many other evidences for God’s existence but if i were to go through all of them this post would be a few pages long.
 
lol, all i can do is facepalm at some of the attempts religious people use to try to get atheists to believe.
there is so much evidence for God! it boggles my mind that so many theists never present those arguments to atheists. its no wonder we have so many atheists out there! honestly i dont blame you.
hokomai, there is plenty of evidence out there for God, but what you atheists fail to understand is that this is not empirical evidence. the proof for God is logical and philosophical proof. where you atheists are mistaken is that you take a physicalist approach to reality.
you must realise that this premise is flawed. you try to reduce everything to the scientific method. (i would like to quote from a priest on yt) “but science doesnt have a word to say about beauty, or justice, …”
so if you want to be rational and objective you have to begin by dispensing with your scientist and physicalist notions.
so what kinds of evidence are there for God?
first is the argument from causes, everything needs a cause. prior to the big bang there was no matter, time or space, therefore its only logical to conclude that something outside of matter, time and space caused the universe. physicists have proven that the universe has a beginning, therefore we now are certain that the universe is not eternal and spontaneous generation has been disproven so we know that it didnt just pop into existence. so that only leaves us with one rational conclusion… a force outside of matter, time, and space caused the universe. in other words God.
there are many other evidences for God’s existence but if i were to go through all of them this post would be a few pages long.
Thanks…this is what i was getting at with the idea of first causes. 👍
 
(i would like to quote from a priest on yt) “but science doesnt have a word to say about beauty, or justice, …”
Have you ever wondered why there is so much relativism in this world? It is not mere coincidence that it flourished in the 20th century.
 
Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître was the original proponent of the Big Bang Theory. He was a Jesuit Priest.

Just thought I’d throw that out there as food for thought…
 
Well, for this experience to work, you would have to desire to make it permanent. It grieves the spirit of holiness to go into one soul just to leave it for false reasons. Say an Our Father and a Glory Be with the intention of opening the eyes of your soul. God Bless.
 
Several CAF members have recently challenged me to ‘try belief’ and just act as if I were a believer in the hope that I would believe ‘by believing’. I thought about this, but found it hard to even start, given my unbelief. I decided to list all of those things I would have to accept before I could even contemplate such an experiment. Here they are, in order of magnitude, as I see them. That is, if I could accept 1) and 2) I might be able to begin religious practice, but only if I accepted all 15 could I begin to accept Catholicism. Note: I have put this in Non-Catholic religions because I thought it was a good fit, even though I don’t have a religion, although many on CAF say I do(!). And this is not a thread about atheism; it is a thread about Catholic belief.


  1. *]Observable things will be found, or have been found that only the existence of a god or gods can explain.
    *]Of all the possible gods in which people do, or have, believed, only one, the God of Christianity, exists.
    *]God created everything and everything depends on God’s existence for its continued being.
    *]God is all-powerful. God is all-loving. God is good.
    *]Before human beings existed, for billions of years on earth, and who knows how long on other planets, living things suffered great pain and distress despite their innocence and their creation by the all-powerful, all-loving, good God.
    *]There is something called ‘sin’ which consists of going against the will of God.
    *]Human beings, at some point in the past, sinned against God in a way that made all their offspring be born with ‘original sin’, which prevents them gaining eternal happiness
    *]God is not a single person, but three, but still one none-the-less, and one of these people was sent to earth to be born of a virgin, suffer and die in order to overcome original sin.
    *]Original sin, although overcome, still exists and is the cause of human pain and suffering.
    *] Humans, despite original sin being overcome, continue to sin. If they die in a state of serious sin, they condemn themselves to eternal pain and torment in a place created by the all-loving, all-powerful God.
    *]We know everything after (1) is true because scripture says so or, if it does not, the Church does, as God expresses his truth through these.
    *]All contradictions in scripture are either minor, or can be explained
    *]God can communicate with us through the Holy Spirit, and we can communicate with God, the angels, and saints through prayer
    *] Despite his omnipotence, God wants us to praise, worship and adore him, and will reward us if we do
    *]God is capable of intervening, and does intervene, in the material world.

  1. Its not easy being a Christian. We have all been told that.
    But I can kind of relate/understand where you coming from a little bit in that I struggle with some aspects but we now have very wise priest who is able to guide in a way that really does bring me nearer to God.
    I think that we think too much. Sorry there is any pun intented there. But satan/devil loves to get us thinking away at things and of course we start looking for prove because we need to see it to believe it.
    I don’t see God but I very much feel him. Earlier this year having struggled a few month to keep my faith a last attempt call to this priest and very softly he saved my faith and gave me a new way of praying which I 100% love. I had heard about it before and did do it before but not deliberately and didn’t really know this was prayer. Just simply being aware of presence of God. I don’ t do words. Simply be with God. I can feel him and now can be aware of him just about anytime. I don’t need anyone else approval etc. A month later a phoned the priest and asked about it again and he said the same thing so I was reassured and never look back and marvel at is simplicity. I have been going to church 25 years by the way:p
    We have also just started a trial silence period in communion rather than hymns. I don’t handle silence very well and as it is when serving I’ve ended up with more arguments with God than enjoying his presence. Mid week I went to a monestary to think about becoming like an associate member. It was a retreat week so they were all in silence. I ended up literally running away next morning before speaking with the Monk about the questions he had set me. I have been in touch since. But that experience terrified me of the silence today and came up with own suggestion of perhaps I can read a suitable book in that time. Being on the Altar some weeks means I am very visiable so I got the permission from the priest who gave it saying I can read any book that helps me to relax so long I leave room for God to speak to me in which he does through different sources. Out of all the years I been going this was the best Sunday through Communion and truelly felt in presence of God it was complete and warm and happy and felt like his full force and I read away the book I had selected in peace. It will have been there every week but took me 25 years to find it. I had properly relaxed rather than the mental fight. And if anyone else says anything, then that is for them to worry about and not me to worry about their issues for I am not distracting them at all. Its not the perceived done thing but the priest gave the response I needed to do what it takes me to relax enough and worked. He got an email of special thanks already today.

    God is here amongst us just waiting for your call. You have half responded by being here in the first place. I think after today’s own experience the secret is to relax. Don’t try and don’t think. Just accept and relax. I won’t need to tell you when you are in the presence of God. You will know when you are. Its nothing that makes you high happy etc. Its not a big wow experience like that. God is warm and gentle and you just will know when you are there with God. Honestly. there may have been times you already with God. I was but didn’t know so because I didn’t know enough even after 25 years.

    You don’t need to try at being a believer - you just need to try at being yourself open to God. We all think and feel and respond different as unique individuals that we are. Going for a walk in the park. Sitting watching tv. chatting with friends. enjoying the garden. All is prayer when you are aware of the presence of God and only you with God will know when that is.

    We make believing to be hard work. When actually its all quite simple. As the priest told me. ‘its so simple that most find it hard to do’. I reckon that is because we have a strange need of making everything complicated. The more qualifications you got and the more important you want to be etc the harder you will find it being this simplistic because you will create all sorts of roots to get there by rather than just being there as you are.

    People want to ask scientific questions and have fully answered responses. God don’t work like that and its not going to happen. Pure simplistic love is all God wants of us and he gives in return. I don’t know how people can walk away from such luxurious love that God gives us no conditions. Just there whenever we turn to him
    peace be with you
 
Several CAF members have recently challenged me to ‘try belief’ and just act as if I were a believer in the hope that I would believe ‘by believing’. I thought about this, but found it hard to even start, given my unbelief. I decided to list all of those things I would have to accept before I could even contemplate such an experiment. Here they are, in order of magnitude, as I see them. That is, if I could accept 1) and 2) I might be able to begin religious practice, but only if I accepted all 15 could I begin to accept Catholicism. Note: I have put this in Non-Catholic religions because I thought it was a good fit, even though I don’t have a religion, although many on CAF say I do(!). And this is not a thread about atheism; it is a thread about Catholic belief.


  1. *]Observable things will be found, or have been found that only the existence of a god or gods can explain.
    *]Of all the possible gods in which people do, or have, believed, only one, the God of Christianity, exists.
    *]God created everything and everything depends on God’s existence for its continued being.
    *]God is all-powerful. God is all-loving. God is good.
    *]Before human beings existed, for billions of years on earth, and who knows how long on other planets, living things suffered great pain and distress despite their innocence and their creation by the all-powerful, all-loving, good God.
    *]There is something called ‘sin’ which consists of going against the will of God.
    *]Human beings, at some point in the past, sinned against God in a way that made all their offspring be born with ‘original sin’, which prevents them gaining eternal happiness
    *]God is not a single person, but three, but still one none-the-less, and one of these people was sent to earth to be born of a virgin, suffer and die in order to overcome original sin.
    *]Original sin, although overcome, still exists and is the cause of human pain and suffering.
    *]Humans, despite original sin being overcome, continue to sin. If they die in a state of serious sin, they condemn themselves to eternal pain and torment in a place created by the all-loving, all-powerful God.
    *]We know everything after (1) is true because scripture says so or, if it does not, the Church does, as God expresses his truth through these.
    *]All contradictions in scripture are either minor, or can be explained
    *]God can communicate with us through the Holy Spirit, and we can communicate with God, the angels, and saints through prayer
    *]Despite his omnipotence, God wants us to praise, worship and adore him, and will reward us if we do
    *]God is capable of intervening, and does intervene, in the material world.

  1. I need to go on a trip in a few minutes, but I’ll leave you with 2 short suggestions:
    1. Here is something from the Bible that I think is worth reading:
      usccb.org/bible/wisdom/13
      verses 1-9.
    2. Rather than starting with your numbers one and two, rather, you might want to consider starting with your number 4. God is love. All the rest flows from that (including even the 3 persons of the Trinity - love itself needs at least one other person to exist, or the word love has no meaning. And by it’s nature, love wants more persons to exist so love can expand).
    Also, I think you’ve misinterpreted (by a bit) some Catholic teachings, but I don’t have time for that now.

    Good luck, and God bless your search for belief.

    When you’re ready, I’d recommend the book “The Gift of Faith” by Tadeusz Dajczer.

    Faith (belief) is a gift, but we must ask for it.
 
God isn’t just a bigger version of us, He isn’t limited by His own creation the same way I’m not limited to the masonry nails I hung skirting board with yesterday. It’s pretty important to remember that.

I would recommend you put yourself out there. That is, put the ball in His court. Sincerely pray: “If there is a God above, please lead me in the way that you want me”. Don’t worry about not knowing how to pray, it’s one of those things (like thinking) that no matter how you try to do it, you are doing it.

It goes without saying, that the maximally great God will lead you to the correct way to follow Him, regardless of your current understanding of it or what you think it to be now. You have nothing to lose, and if you listen to to what we Catholics say, a lot to gain. So much so that my statement would be the greatest understatement, quite literally, in the finite universe.
 
Several CAF members have recently challenged me to ‘try belief’ and just act as if I were a believer in the hope that I would believe ‘by believing’. I thought about this, but found it hard to even start, given my unbelief. I decided to list all of those things I would have to accept before I could even contemplate such an experiment.
Sounds sort of like a “prayer experiment.” The error of these kinds of “tests” are that they treat God like some sort of natural cause, rather than as a personal, rational Being. These types of experiments were not set up to test God, a superhuman, supernatural intelligence, with an entirely benevolent will, but only one aspect of God, His omnipotence. These tests are to find out whether God will do what we think is best; that is, they are a good test for the existence of a cosmic genie, but not for the existence of God.

So, how do we come to have faith?

Perhaps the following (taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church) will help you on your journey:

III. The Characteristics of Faith

Faith is a grace

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”. Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. “Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’”

Faith is a human act

154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of… intellect and will to God who reveals”, and to share in an interior communion with him.

155 In faith, the human intellect and will co-operate with divine grace: “Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.”

Faith and understanding

156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe “because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived”. So “that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit.” Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability “are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all”; they are “motives of credibility” (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is “by no means a blind impulse of the mind”.

157 Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, but “the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives.” “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt.”

158 “Faith seeks understanding”: it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. the grace of faith opens “the eyes of your hearts” to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the centre of the revealed mystery. “The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood.” In the words of St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.”

159 Faith and science: “Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.” “Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. the humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are.”

The freedom of faith

160 To be human, “man’s response to God by faith must be free, and… therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. the act of faith is of its very nature a free act.” “God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced. . . This fact received its fullest manifestation in Christ Jesus.” Indeed, Christ invited people to faith and conversion, but never coerced them. “For he bore witness to the truth but refused to use force to impose it on those who spoke against it. His kingdom… grows by the love with which Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws men to himself.”

The necessity of faith

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since “without faith it is impossible to please (God) " and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

Perseverance in faith

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

Faith - the beginning of eternal life

163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is”. So faith is already the beginning of eternal life:
When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.

164 Now, however, “we walk by faith, not by sight”; we perceive God as “in a mirror, dimly” and only “in part”. Even though enlightened by him in whom it believes, faith is often lived in darkness and can be put to the test. the world we live in often seems very far from the one promised us by faith. Our experiences of evil and suffering, injustice and death, seem to contradict the Good News; they can shake our faith and become a temptation against it.

165 It is then we must turn to the witnesses of faith: to Abraham, who “in hope… believed against hope”; to the Virgin Mary, who, in “her pilgrimage of faith”, walked into the “night of faith” in sharing the darkness of her son’s suffering and death; and to so many others: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith.”

So, my advice would be to pray to Mary the Mother of God would intercede on your behalf with the Holy Spirit that you may recieve the gift of faith and have the courage and strength to assent to it.
 
#1 - There will always be an explanation gap between you and God otherwise you are god.

Get this one and you are on your way.👍
 
Several CAF members have recently challenged me to ‘try belief’ and just act as if I were a believer in the hope that I would believe ‘by believing’. I thought about this, but found it hard to even start, given my unbelief.
Most interesting…
I applaud your decision to delve into this and can certainly see the difficulty it must pose…
I decided to list all of those things I would have to accept before I could even contemplate such an experiment. Here they are, in order of magnitude, as I see them. That is, if I could accept 1) and 2) I might be able to begin religious practice, but only if I accepted all 15 could I begin to accept Catholicism.
A most interesting list…I like it…

A question if I may - When you say above “If I could accept”…do you mean “If I could believe”, or “if I could be open to the possibility”??
The one (belief) obviously requires a firm assent, the other only requires avoiding a firm rejection…

The answer to the above might have a profound impact on your list AND on the possibility of a fair and “unbiased” experiment…so I ask you to consider this carefully…

Peace
James
 
The fact that the OP is asking such questions indicates he has already been given ‘light’ from God. Now the next step must be taken, methinks.

As for proof of God. Welllllllllllll… If ‘intellectually’ we can only prove we ourselves exist, via Cogito Ergo Sum, it makes me wonder… just what kind of proof could the OP accept?
 
There might have been another post like this, but if not, here goes.

Try extraordinary acts of love.

Try extraordinary acts of hate.

See what happens.

Blessings
 
God isn’t just a bigger version of us, He isn’t limited by His own creation the same way I’m not limited to the masonry nails I hung skirting board with yesterday. It’s pretty important to remember that.

I would recommend you put yourself out there. That is, put the ball in His court. Sincerely pray: “If there is a God above, please lead me in the way that you want me”. Don’t worry about not knowing how to pray, it’s one of those things (like thinking) that no matter how you try to do it, you are doing it.

It goes without saying, that the maximally great God will lead you to the correct way to follow Him, regardless of your current understanding of it or what you think it to be now. You have nothing to lose, and if you listen to to what we Catholics say, a lot to gain. So much so that my statement would be the greatest understatement, quite literally, in the finite universe.
I agree with this 🙂

Despite my already-really-long post about my observations on the proofs of God’s existence, which I may post anyway, but for a different purpose.
 
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