An unborn baby an angel? a saint?

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Br. Rich SFO:
How do you support your idea which is different than what the Church says in the Catechism? The Church teaches that we don’t know their fate. How is it that you know for certain the fate of children who die without Baptism? The Church teaches in DS# 1526 and 410 that they are not condemned to the punishments of Hell because they died with only Original sin, no personal sin. The Scriptures state that “No unbaptized person can enter the Kingdom”. John 3:5 Hence the teaching of the Church in the catechism known as the “necessity of Baptism.”
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You said so yourself that the Church teaches that they are not condemned to the punishment of Hell. That leaves only heaven. I am certain that God in His mercy would not punish a child who never had the opportunity to BE baptized since she didn’t even have the opportunity to BE born. I am certain my children are with Jesus and this is very comforting.

Now may I ask you, why does that bother you so?
 
I believe that the reason why some of us would strongly oppose stating definitively that such a child is in Heaven is because such an affirmation necessitates private Divine Revelation.

We have no way of knowing soley with our reason the fate of these children, and their fate has not been revealed to us. It is impossible for us to know for certain without private revelation.

We know that it is the teaching of the Church that we have Original Sin, and that Original Sin is only taken away by Baptism. Hence we can logically conclude that a child who dies, must have Baptism to enter Heaven. If they did not receive the sacrament, they would either need Baptism of Blood or Desire.

One might speculate that all children under the age of reason have an implicit desire to be baptised, but this would be mere speculation, and there are numerous arguments against it. As the Church has not defined that matter, one would be able to hold such a position, but you should certainly recognize that it is merely speculation, and that it is not known for certain. Thus any statement which claims certainty in such a matter claims to have a source of this certainty, which is not the dogma of the Church, i.e. it implies private revelation, which I am assuming that you are not claiming, which can only lead to the conclusion that such a positive statement is in error.

I personally do not think the Limbo Theory likely, but rather accept a theory of choice at death, where the soul would be given use of its reason. Even this has arguments against it though, and thus I cannot positively assert it.
 
In the Church we celebrate the feast of the** Holy Innocents**, December 28th, (none of these were baptised)

Collect:
We remember today, O God, the slaughter of the holy innocents of Bethlehem by King Herod. Receive, we pray, into the arms of your mercy all innocent victims; and by your great might frustrate the designs of evil tyrants and establish your rule of justice, love, and peace; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

Gospel:
Matthew 2:13-18

When the wise men had departed, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother by night, and went to Egypt, and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet, “Out of Egypt I have called my son.”

When Herod saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, he was infuriated, and he sent and killed all the children in and around Bethlehem who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had learned from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through the prophet Jeremiah:

“A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they are no more.”
 
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asquared:
this explanation, which I will recap as well as I can, was given during a parish mission by a Father Hughes, whose presentations were in the main proper and orthodox. He said this idea came from Thomas Acquinas. I recap it because it helped me immensely, and because I would like the commentary of knowledgeable people on these forums.

At the moment of death, we are no longer imprisoned in time, we are in eternity with God. In that moment we come face to faith with God, and have all knowledge of him that we were denied when bound to earthly senses and intellectual capacities. In that moment we make the irrevocable choice to love Him forever or to hate Him forever.

All the knowledge of our past life, including knowledge of our sins, perfect knowledge not clouded by concupiscence is also with us at that moment, so we suffer the purifying torment of realizing what that sin meant and how it contributed to Christ’s suffering, and we have the opportunity for perfect contrition at last. That is our purgatory, if we choose God, but if we choose to cling to the sin we choose hell.

Also the grace of all the sacramental encounters we have ever had with Christ are with us at that moment, along with the grace from all the celebration of the sacraments throughout the history of the Church on earth, before and after our death. Also the grace of all those praying for us before and after death (remember, we are in eternity here, so before and after have no meaning).

The unborn child, or unbaptized infant who dies, although it has original sin, is granted this same blinding full knowledge of God in that moment, and having no actual sin to cloud its choice or to cling to, almost inevitably would choose to love God forever.

This makes perfect sense to me, and I await comments. By the fact that the pope has appointed a commission to do further theological study on this question, I assume that no one here can make a definitive pronouncement one way or the other about the soul of an unborn child or infant who dies without baptism.
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Awesome!

Aside for those, unborn innocents, though, I still have to wonder how the weight of mortal sin (no sanctifying grace) would impact us in this eternal moment. Perhaps, the prayers such as those of the Divine Mercy cover a multitude of sin and plead the Blood of Christ for us as most assuredly does every Mass throughout time as being one with the Crucifixion and satisfying for all sin; Jesus having become sin and being nailed to the Cross in our stead.

Mysteries too great of me. With you, I too await the comments of the knowledgeable people.
 
carol marie:
You said so yourself that the Church teaches that they are not condemned to the punishment of Hell. That leaves only heaven. I am certain that God in His mercy would not punish a child who never had the opportunity to BE baptized since she didn’t even have the opportunity to BE born. I am certain my children are with Jesus and this is very comforting.

Now may I ask you, why does that bother you so?
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Now may I ask you, why does that bother you so?

What bothers me is people, priests, religious, catechists, are stating that they know for certain the fate of unbaptized infants. When the Church herself says that she does not know for certain their fate! That is what bothers me.

It doesn’t bother me that you have hope that your child may be in Heaven. I personally believe that God acting outside of the Sacraments provides the Grace of Baptism to those who die without the possibility of receiving the Sacramental mark of Baptism. I hope and pray that this may be a possibility.
 
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Joanna:
In the Church we celebrate the feast of the** Holy Innocents**, December 28th, (none of these were baptised)

Collect:
We remember today, O God, the slaughter of the holy innocents of Bethlehem by King Herod. Receive, we pray, into the arms of your mercy all innocent victims; and by your great might frustrate the designs of evil tyrants and establish your rule of justice, love, and peace; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

Gospel:
Matthew 2:13-18

When the wise men had departed, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother by night, and went to Egypt, and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet, “Out of Egypt I have called my son.”

When Herod saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, he was infuriated, and he sent and killed all the children in and around Bethlehem who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had learned from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through the prophet Jeremiah:

“A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they are no more.”
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That is correct these **Holy Innocents **received Baptism of Blood. They were killed because of the direct hatred of those seeking to kill Christ. Most infants killed by abortion or who die of other causes do not suffer death as a direct result of hatred of Christ.
 
I had held to a limbo as described by Alphonsus Liguori in his work The Great Means of Salvation and Perfection. However I now lean more towards a hope of God acting outside of His Sacrament of Baptism and supplying the Grace of Baptism without the Mark of Baptism.
 
I honestly don’t get Catholics sometimes. When I say my unborn babies are in heaven you call foul and say there’s no way for ME to be sure of that… but when there’s a thread about whether or not a person who rejects Christ can go to heaven & I say no way - without trusting in Jesus you die in your sins (would include Buddists, Muslums etc.) you cry foul again and say that God looks at a person’s heart and if they lived a “good” life in their own faith (a faith that says Jesus was NOT the Son of God - so obviously they weren’t babtized in the name of Father, Son, H.S) So long as they were “good” they may very well go to heaven.

:confused: :confused: confused:
 
Br. Rich SFO:
That is correct these **Holy Innocents **received Baptism of Blood. They were killed because of the direct hatred of those seeking to kill Christ. Most infants killed by abortion or who die of other causes do not suffer death as a direct result of hatred of Christ.
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I would include the babies killed in abortion among the Holy Innocents if only because Christ said, “I am the Life” and it is He that indentifies Himself with our humanity. In abortion, Satan seeks to attack Life in the person of these innocents. It is an attack on God.

My opinion however is fully submissive to the greater wisdom of the Church and if I’m wrong I happily withdraw my thought.
 
carol marie:
I honestly don’t get Catholics sometimes. When I say my unborn babies are in heaven you call foul and say there’s no way for ME to be sure of that… but when there’s a thread about whether or not a person who rejects Christ can go to heaven & I say no way - without trusting in Jesus you die in your sins (would include Buddists, Muslums etc.) you cry foul again and say that God looks at a person’s heart and if they lived a “good” life in their own faith (a faith that says Jesus was NOT the Son of God - so obviously they weren’t babtized in the name of Father, Son, H.S) So long as they were “good” they may very well go to heaven.

:confused: :confused: confused:
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Are you saying that a Muslim, living honestly according to his faith, who NEVER hears the truth of the Gospel and dyes without unrestricted access to ascent to the truth, will be rejected by God? Do you know that for sure? Culpability depends on knowledge and understanding. Knowledge requires access. If someone has no access to information, they cannot possess knowledge. If one has no knowledge, they cannot posses understanding. If one has no understanding, they can possess no faith. How do Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, et al, who NEVER know who Christ is become faithful to Him? We HAVE TO trust in the infinate mercy and justice of God. IN short, we don’t really know. We just know that God is love and sent his sons, not to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through him.
 
I think it’s very plausible to think of babies who are aborted as martyrs like the Holy Innocents of 2000 years ago.
 
👍 With my past experience in contacting spirits with vary things like pendulums, ouja boards, and seiances (woops spelled that wrong), i can tell you that yes they do have life after death. just like any other person. i know of one, actually, that didn’t go to heaven and had never been born. Allie was an aborted child that i contacted in the past that stayed behind to get a message across to the mother that aborted her. that is a rare case but it does happen. so yes, unborn children do have life after death and can be an angel. now, i don’t do that stuff anymore, unless used for good (such as helping spirits forgive and move on with God, which i do not think is wrong), but children after death are something i’m very experienced and in touch with.Hope i helped.
~Megan
 
Megzy said:
👍 With my past experience in contacting spirits with vary things like pendulums, ouja boards, and seiances (woops spelled that wrong), i can tell you that yes they do have life after death. just like any other person. i know of one, actually, that didn’t go to heaven and had never been born. Allie was an aborted child that i contacted in the past that stayed behind to get a message across to the mother that aborted her. that is a rare case but it does happen. so yes, unborn children do have life after death and can be an angel. now, i don’t do that stuff anymore, unless used for good (such as helping spirits forgive and move on with God, which i do not think is wrong), but children after death are something i’m very experienced and in touch with.Hope i helped.
~Megan
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Meagan,
You are freaking me out so bad… there is so much wrong with your post I don’t even know where to begin. Ouja boards, contacting spirits, etc. is all about the Devil and not about God. You are messing with some powerful stuff and it will totally screw you up. You may believe that what you are doing is OK but the Devil always makes people think that… it’s not like he comes to us and says, “Hey, I’m the Devil… wanna play?” Please Meagan, the occult (that’s exactally what you’ve described) is NOTHING to goof around with. Besides, in your profile you say that you are Catholic… all of that goes against your faith. Please talk to a Priest about this. I’m worried about you. 😦
CM
 
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Apologia100:
Are you saying that a Muslim, living honestly according to his faith, who NEVER hears the truth of the Gospel and dyes without unrestricted access to ascent to the truth, will be rejected by God? Do you know that for sure? Culpability depends on knowledge and understanding. Knowledge requires access. If someone has no access to information, they cannot possess knowledge. If one has no knowledge, they cannot posses understanding. If one has no understanding, they can possess no faith. How do Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, et al, who NEVER know who Christ is become faithful to Him? We HAVE TO trust in the infinate mercy and justice of God. IN short, we don’t really know. We just know that God is love and sent his sons, not to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through him.
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I don’t know about Muslims or anyone else who rejects Jesus and dies in their sins… I don’t know if they end up in heaven? As a fundamentalist I would’ve said No way in hell (no pun intended) but I’ve been wrong about things before so what do I know? All I was saying is that I think Catholics talk in two different directions. My innocent babies may NOT be in heaven because they weren’t baptized but those who reject Jesus (also not babtized) get a great big pass because they were ignorant of the faith. I just think that’s twisted, that’s all I was saying…
 
Megzy said:
👍 With my past experience in contacting spirits with vary things like pendulums, ouja boards, and seiances (woops spelled that wrong), i can tell you that yes they do have life after death. just like any other person. i know of one, actually, that didn’t go to heaven and had never been born. Allie was an aborted child that i contacted in the past that stayed behind to get a message across to the mother that aborted her. that is a rare case but it does happen. so yes, unborn children do have life after death and can be an angel. now, i don’t do that stuff anymore, unless used for good (such as helping spirits forgive and move on with God, which i do not think is wrong), but children after death are something i’m very experienced and in touch with.Hope i helped.
~Megan
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Megan,

Since you say.“I don’t do that stuff anymore” it sounds as though you realize that attempting to contact the spirits of the dead is gravely sinful. However, since you also say, “unless used for good (such as helping spirits forgive and move on with God, which i do not think is wrong)” it also sounds like you do not realize it is wrong even if it is done to accomplish some supposed good. In fact, you are putting yourself and others in danger. You are opening your will to the spirit world of the Evil One. God doesn’t contradict Himself and He forbade such practices in His Word (Deuteronomy 18:10, Judges 29: 8-9.)

We are heartily encouraged to pray for the dead with whom we have communion in Christ. However, communication with the dead through ouija, mediumship or mediums, seances etc. is not of the Holy Spirit. You may have experiences but they are contrary to the will of God and disceptive. The evil spirits are skilled in deceiving the willfully disobedient and/or the unwitting. You speak not with the dead but with a deceiving spirit. God is not glorified.

I would think speaking with a priest about past experiences would be a prudent action. Sometimes, maybe, always, we do need deliverance after such contact.

Lastly, we are not the same kind of creation, as angels. There are different kinds of angels but all of them are pure spirit. We have bodies (material creation) as well as spirits. Even after death we do not become angels; our souls continue on in the afterlife as we await our glorified bodies like Christ’s.

Peace
Joanna
 
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tuopaolo:
The Church does NOT teach that unborn babies who die without baptism go to heaven.
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Also, the Church does NOT teach that unborn babies who die without baptism do NOT go to Heaven.

And, Megan, it is not possible to communicate with the “spirits of the dead.” Such souls are either in Purgatory, Heaven, or Hell. There are no lost souls of the dead out wandering the Earth looking for someone to tell them to go into the light.

What there are, however, are demons who can deceive people into believing all sorts of things contrary to the truth.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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RobedWithLight:
We can only trust the infinite mercy of God in this matter.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1261] states the following:

"As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the little children come to me, do not hinder them,’ allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism."

Gerry 🙂
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Gerry,

We can be greatly consoled entrusting these little ones to God’s mercy, a mercy that has sent us His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for us so that all might be saved.

When I pray for these little ones, I baptise them spiritually in the water flowing from the side of Christ and the tears of the saints. God hears my prayer and answers it in the most holy way. His great love far surpasses ours and as Jesus said, "If you, with all your sins, know how to give your children what is good, how much more will your heavenly Father give good things to anyone who asks him! Matthew 7:11

Joanna
 
The Church does has basically said that it is not known what happens to these little souls but we can take comfort in the fact that our God is a just God.

I have lost 2 myself and I don’t dwell on it. Because God is a just God I do know that these children are happy wherever they are.

I was surprised to see that nobody posted this but the Holy Father just appointed a commission to study what happens to the souls of these little ones.

Before Christ came, those who were faithful to God who died were said to be in the Bosom of Abraham. This was a place where they went to wait until the Savior came and saved all. Since they did not know the Christ, they could not enter Heaven but weren’t worthy of hell. This is one of the prime arguments for an alternative place that’s not Heaven or hell, for example, purgatory. However, I don’t think that their was believed to be suffering, just a longing or at least an abscence of God. You’d have to ask the AAA forum.
 
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Joanna:
Gerry,

We can be greatly consoled entrusting these little ones to God’s mercy, a mercy that has sent us His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for us so that all might be saved.

When I pray for these little ones, I baptise them spiritually in the water flowing from the side of Christ and the tears of the saints. God hears my prayer and answers it in the most holy way. His great love far surpasses ours and as Jesus said, "If you, with all your sins, know how to give your children what is good, how much more will your heavenly Father give good things to anyone who asks him! Matthew 7:11

Joanna
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Joanna

I’m inclined to believe that God’s infinite mercy **will **find a way for these little ones, in His own time.

Gerry 🙂
 
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